BAH!

wafflycat said:

Perhaps if he had maintained his vehicle properly and paid attention to
what was going on, he may well have been able to stop in time, thus not
hitting anyone??

Perhaps, perhaps not.

Whilst I abhor the use of mobile phones in cars, and poor maintenance,
there comes a point whereby even the most attentive driver won't avoid a
crash if a pedestrian or cyclist does something stupid.

That may have been the case here - the youth should be fined the usual
amount for the phone and tyre, but unless it can be shown that he truly
could have avoided the accident, this is the correct verdict.

--
Mark.
http://tranchant.plus.com/

Mark Tranchant said:

That may have been the case here - the youth should be fined the usual
amount for the phone and tyre, but unless it can be shown that he truly
could have avoided the accident, this is the correct verdict.

No, everyone driving illegal vehicles or using a phone when driving
should be punished as if they hit someone.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

Ian Smith said:

Mark Tranchant said:

That may have been the case here - the youth should be fined the
usual amount for the phone and tyre, but unless it can be shown
that he truly could have avoided the accident, this is the correct
verdict.

No, everyone driving illegal vehicles or using a phone when driving
should be punished as if they hit someone.

regards, Ian SMith

We live in a society that punishes people for the crimes that did happen,
not what might have happened. It would be a dangerous day should we start
punishing people for what could have happened. I think we'd all be locked
up at some stage in our lives...

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:57:57 +0000 (UTC) someone who may be "Mick"
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

We live in a society that punishes people for the crimes that did happen,
not what might have happened. It would be a dangerous day should we start
punishing people for what could have happened.

That day is already here.

Sajid Badat did not blow up an aeroplane but was sentenced to 13
years. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1504770_1,00.html
has the background.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

Mick said:

Ian Smith said:

Mark Tranchant said:

That may have been the case here - the youth should be fined the
usual amount for the phone and tyre, but unless it can be shown
that he truly could have avoided the accident, this is the correct
verdict.

No, everyone driving illegal vehicles or using a phone when driving
should be punished as if they hit someone.

We live in a society that punishes people for the crimes that did happen,

You're saying that breaking the law isn't a crime unless someone is
injured?

Is that something you would propose for all law, or do you think it
should only aplly to motoring law?

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

in message <[email hidden]>, Ian Smith

(') said:

Mark Tranchant said:

That may have been the case here - the youth should be fined the
usual amount for the phone and tyre, but unless it can be shown that
he truly could have avoided the accident, this is the correct
verdict.

No, everyone driving illegal vehicles or using a phone when driving
should be punished as if they hit someone.

Correction: if they hit someone, that's enough for jail time. Oh, and
_permanent_ license revocation. The phone and the tyre aggravate it, but
it is not acceptable to drive so you're at risk of hitting people.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Iraq war: it's time for regime change...
... go now, Tony, while you can still go with dignity.
[update 18 months after this .sig was written: it's still relevant]

Ian Smith said:

Mick said:

Ian Smith said:

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005, Mark Tranchant <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> That may have been the case here - the youth should be fined the
> usual amount for the phone and tyre, but unless it can be shown
> that he truly could have avoided the accident, this is the correct
>verdict.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

No, everyone driving illegal vehicles or using a phone when driving
should be punished as if they hit someone.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We live in a society that punishes people for the crimes that did happen,

Quoted message said:

You're saying that breaking the law isn't a crime unless someone is
injured?

Absolutely not, but they should be punished for what they did. In this
case, the misdemeanour is using a phone whilst driving with a dodgy
tyre, and appropriate fines/points should be levied. *Only* if it can be
shown that this contributed to the accident should tougher sentencing arise.

Innocent until proven guilty *must* prevail.

Quoted message said:

Is that something you would propose for all law, or do you think it
should only aplly to motoring law?

All law. If I fail to maintain a tree on my property despite warnings
and a heavy branch blows down, I shouldn't get done for manslaughter
unless the branch actually does kill someone.

--
Mark.
http://tranchant.plus.com/

Mark Tranchant said:

Ian Smith said:

Mick said:

Ian Smith wrote:
>On Thu, 21 Jul 2005, Mark Tranchant <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> That may have been the case here - the youth should be fined the
>> usual amount for the phone and tyre, but unless it can be shown
>> that he truly could have avoided the accident, this is the correct
>>verdict.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>No, everyone driving illegal vehicles or using a phone when driving
>should be punished as if they hit someone.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We live in a society that punishes people for the crimes that did happen,

Quoted message said:

You're saying that breaking the law isn't a crime unless someone is
injured?

Absolutely not, but they should be punished for what they did. In this
case, the misdemeanour is using a phone whilst driving with a dodgy
tyre, and appropriate fines/points should be levied. *Only* if it can be
shown that this contributed to the accident should tougher sentencing arise.

Innocent until proven guilty *must* prevail.

Indeed. I have proposed nothing remotely contrary to that. You are
arguing with a straw man - it's not really very clever.

(Incidently, innocent until proven guilty is not a universal precept
of UK law.)

Anyone guilty of driving a dangerously illegal vehicle, having been
proven guilty, should be punished to a degree comensurate with having,
through delibverate negligence, hit someone with that vehicle.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is that something you would propose for all law, or do you think it
should only aplly to motoring law?

All law. If I fail to maintain a tree on my property despite warnings
and a heavy branch blows down, I shouldn't get done for manslaughter
unless the branch actually does kill someone.

Right. So burglary is not an offence in your proposed legal system?
Fraud? Vandalism? All perfectly OK, as long as no-one is actually
physically injured.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Ian Smith

(') said:

No, everyone driving illegal vehicles or using a phone when driving
should be punished as if they hit someone.

Correction: if they hit someone, that's enough for jail time. Oh, and
_permanent_ license revocation. The phone and the tyre aggravate it, but
it is not acceptable to drive so you're at risk of hitting people.

No, that simply makes it a lottery. The legal system should not
tolerate deliberate wilful negligence that unnecessarily increases the
risk of killing people.

Driving with a bald tyre should be treated similarly to (say)
discharging a rifle down the high street. If someone did that and
somehow didn't kill anyone there'd be uproar if the system prosecuted
them only for (say) disturbing the peace.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|