Back Pain

RoadRider84 said:

Ive been riding pretty intense now for about 6 months preparing for a
few races next month, Ive recently been experiencing upper back
pain/neck pain when in the race position, would anyone suggest trying
out some Tri bars or adjusting my stem maybe?
Also another thing, my bike rattles when going over bumps...is this
normal? wondered if my headset was loose?

I wopuldn't suggest tri bars for anybody unless they are doing
triathlons or TTs...go see a fit guy, get a fit. It could be anything
from seat height, fore-aft, stem, habrs, lots of things.

RoadRider84 said:

Ive been riding pretty intense now for about 6 months preparing for a
few races next month, Ive recently been experiencing upper back
pain/neck pain when in the race position, would anyone suggest trying
out some Tri bars or adjusting my stem maybe?

I'd suggest getting your fit checked. Do you have to strain to reach
the drops or the hoods? If so, you might have your bars too low or need
a shorter stem. When riding in the hoods, your arms and shoulders
should feel fairly relaxed. If not, there's something amiss. The bar
position of most race bikes these days blows my mind--though a lot of
people admit to me that they never ride in the drops. Don't arch your
back, tilt it, along with your hips, forward instead.

If you know a good chiropractor, as there are quite a few hacks out
there, it might be worth a few bucks to get your bits adjusted.

Quoted message said:

Also another thing, my bike rattles when going over bumps...is this
normal? wondered if my headset was loose?

Lock front brake, rock bike back and forth, see if there's play in the
headset. Rattles can be anything, loose bottle screws, brake QRs, etc.
Give your nuts and bolts a once over and see what's loose.

RoadRider84 said:

Ive been riding pretty intense now for about 6 months preparing for a
few races next month, Ive recently been experiencing upper back
pain/neck pain when in the race position, would anyone suggest trying
out some Tri bars or adjusting my stem maybe?

Can be a lot of things, a taller stem would be an obvious thing to try.
Sometimes reach can cause problems, and even bar width. Unfortunately it
seems to be a trial & error thing. Like a lot of other riders, I've
accumulated a collection of stems, saddles and even bars.

Quoted message said:

Also another thing, my bike rattles when going over bumps...is this
normal? wondered if my headset was loose?

Get off the bike & bounce it, or have someone else bounce it while you
listen.

Quoted message said:

Ive been riding pretty intense now for about 6 months preparing for a
few races next month, Ive recently been experiencing upper back
pain/neck pain when in the race position, would anyone suggest trying
out some Tri bars or adjusting my stem maybe?

OK, I'll bite, what's the "race position?" If by that you mean when in the
drops, but you're fine on top of the bars or on the hoods, then I'd ride
there, instead of the drops. I don't understand why so many people think
there's a requirement that they ride in the drops (lower part of the
handlebar). Watch the pros and learn. Not all of them ride in the drops.
Even when descending!

But a few questions. How tall are you, and how much drop is there from the
top of the saddle to the top of the stem? And is your handlebar one of the
older style with a long forward reach, or the newer type that minimizes
forward reach, since with STI or Ergo levers, you're going to spend more
time on the hoods so it shouldn't be quite such an aggressive position as
yesteryear? We've had STI & Ergo since the early 1990s, but some aspects of
fit are just now catching up.

Quoted message said:

Also another thing, my bike rattles when going over bumps...is this
normal? wondered if my headset was loose?

Threadless or threaded headset? The way to tell in either case is to see if
the tone of the rattle (heard by bouncing the front wheel of the bike on the
ground from maybe an inch or so) changes as you tighten the adjustment. The
best way to properly adjust a headset is to tighten it *only* enough that
the extra noise or vibration goes away. You can keep tightening, and it will
still subjectively feel smooth, but you're destroying the headset.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"RoadRider84" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ive been riding pretty intense now for about 6 months preparing for a
few races next month, Ive recently been experiencing upper back
pain/neck pain when in the race position, would anyone suggest trying
out some Tri bars or adjusting my stem maybe?
Also another thing, my bike rattles when going over bumps...is this
normal? wondered if my headset was loose?

RoadRider84 said:

Ive been riding pretty intense now for about 6 months preparing for a
few races next month, Ive recently been experiencing upper back
pain/neck pain when in the race position, would anyone suggest trying
out some Tri bars or adjusting my stem maybe?
Also another thing, my bike rattles when going over bumps...is this
normal? wondered if my headset was loose?

I find my comfort on the road bike is less due to position ( I sit
fairly low and streched out) and more to flexibility, or at least
having done stretching recently. Chiros and physios describe the body
as a chain of many links, and full range of motion in each link is
necessary for comfort and to avoid injury. If the chain gets tight,
the symptom is pain in one place, perhaps the weak link. For me tight
hams give me low back pain. For you the neck and upper back pain might
originate with tightness along the chain.

If I stretch thoroughly (hanstrings up to upper back), all my aches go
away and I can hold a nice low aero position for hours (I'm 48). If I
don't, I can't. I'm a former pursuiter by the way, so I was kind of
encouraged into an aero position, but the stretching works now mainly
for comfort.

Most likely, as other's have mentioned, it's bike fit. If you don't
normally get pain on long rides it might even be that you're not used to
the full tuck position.

As for the rattling, that could be anything; cable housing shaking
against the frame is most likely, other possibilities could be B.C.
sensor cables, pump springs if you carry a pump, straps on tool bags or
even tools in the bags.

- -
Comments and opinions compliments of,
"Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

My web Site:
http "colon-slash-slash" geocities "dot" com "slash" czcorner

To E-mail me:
ChrisZCorner "at" webtv "dot" net

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

Ive been riding pretty intense now for about 6 months preparing for a
few races next month, Ive recently been experiencing upper back
pain/neck pain when in the race position, would anyone suggest trying
out some Tri bars or adjusting my stem maybe?

OK, I'll bite, what's the "race position?" If by that you mean when in the
drops, but you're fine on top of the bars or on the hoods, then I'd ride
there, instead of the drops. I don't understand why so many people think
there's a requirement that they ride in the drops (lower part of the
handlebar). Watch the pros and learn. Not all of them ride in the drops.
Even when descending!

But a few questions. How tall are you, and how much drop is there from the
top of the saddle to the top of the stem? And is your handlebar one of the
older style with a long forward reach, or the newer type that minimizes
forward reach, since with STI or Ergo levers, you're going to spend more
time on the hoods so it shouldn't be quite such an aggressive position as
yesteryear? We've had STI & Ergo since the early 1990s, but some aspects of
fit are just now catching up.

Quoted message said:

Also another thing, my bike rattles when going over bumps...is this
normal? wondered if my headset was loose?

Threadless or threaded headset? The way to tell in either case is to see if
the tone of the rattle (heard by bouncing the front wheel of the bike on the
ground from maybe an inch or so) changes as you tighten the adjustment. The
best way to properly adjust a headset is to tighten it *only* enough that
the extra noise or vibration goes away. You can keep tightening, and it will
still subjectively feel smooth, but you're destroying the headset.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

IMHO, the objective when setting up the height of the bars is to give
one as many options as possible. In considering how many places there
are to ride on the bars, I can count 4 major ones: The tops of the
bars, the forward section of the tops, the brake hoods, and the drops.

For "sit-up" and relax, I use the tops as I can sit up as straight as I
need to. For most all of my solo and general riding, I find myself
using the forward section of the bar, just behind where the lever
mounts to the bar. I can ride in this position with my arms loose and
relaxed. When riding in a fast paceline, I ride on on the hoods for
better access to the brakes. This puts me an inch or two more forward,
and thus a bit lower and more "flat". Pretty much the only time I ride
in the drops is when I am sprinting.

If you look at all those together, it makes sense to have the bars as
low as possible while still able to remain comfortable on the forward
top section. Having the bar lower will help to lower your frontal area
when sprinting, which should make one faster (providing they have good
sprinting ability and technique).

There are some considerations when attempting to position the bar.
Having your bar angled such that the entire top section is parallel or
nearly parallel to the ground makes for the most comfort when riding
there, but this is a trade off with the position of the flat portion of
the drop (if handlebar is ergonomic). The more upward rotation of the
bar to get the top portion flat results in a drop that moves further
forward and thus stretches the rider out more. I personally do not
find this to be much of an issue because again, I only use this
position for sprinting.

As I said, this is just my opinion and what works for me. I hope
someone may find some usefulness to it.

Greg Wood

Yeah thats exatly how I train, I only experience the upper neck pain
when im in the drops and looking forward, feels like im straining my
neck!

Try rotating your bars back and sliding the brake levers up, this should
shorten the reach to the drops but leave everything else close to where it
was. I usually set up the drops position standing up out of the saddle which
is more extreme on the neck than sitting down.

"RoadRider84" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Yeah thats exatly how I train, I only experience the upper neck pain
when im in the drops and looking forward, feels like im straining my
neck!

Quoted message said:

Yeah thats exatly how I train, I only experience the upper neck pain
when im in the drops and looking forward, feels like im straining my
neck!

OK... so why are you training in the drops all the time, if it's causing you
trouble? It's not a requirement to ride there. In many cases, the only way
to make it practical to do so requires going to a considerably-taller stem.

Don't try and conform to what other people think is the way you're supposed
to look on a bike. As I pointed out, there are many TdF riders who
consistently ride on top and rarely use the drops. If the drops aren't
comfortable, don't use 'em.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"RoadRider84" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Yeah thats exatly how I train, I only experience the upper neck pain
when im in the drops and looking forward, feels like im straining my
neck!

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Greg said:

IMHO, the objective when setting up the height of the bars is to give
one as many options as possible. In considering how many places there
are to ride on the bars, I can count 4 major ones: The tops of the
bars, the forward section of the tops, the brake hoods, and the drops.

I count one more major position: the hooks. I use the
hooks for descents. Also when I hammer on an ascent my
posture in the hooks is exactly right for balancing my
effort over the crank.

--
Michael Press

I didnt say I was training in the drops ALL THE TIME, I said I only
experience the neck pain when racing down hill for longer than 10
minutes and LOOKING UP to see where im going. Anyway ive been to see a
phsiothereapist and she says this is normal especially when coming down
the Yorkshire moors becuase theyre so steep, so I need to exercise my
neck before training.worked a treat yesterday

In article <[email hidden]>,

Greg said:

IMHO, the objective when setting up the height of the bars is to give
one as many options as possible.

Yes.

Quoted message said:

In considering how many places there are to ride on the bars, I can
count 4 major ones: The tops of the bars, the forward section of the
tops, the brake hoods, and the drops.

For "sit-up" and relax, I use the tops as I can sit up as straight as
I need to. For most all of my solo and general riding, I find myself
using the forward section of the bar, just behind where the lever
mounts to the bar. I can ride in this position with my arms loose
and relaxed. When riding in a fast paceline, I ride on on the hoods
for better access to the brakes. This puts me an inch or two more
forward, and thus a bit lower and more "flat". Pretty much the only
time I ride in the drops is when I am sprinting.

So in other words the drops are pretty well useless to you.

Quoted message said:

If you look at all those together, it makes sense to have the bars as
low as possible while still able to remain comfortable on the forward
top section. Having the bar lower will help to lower your frontal
area when sprinting, which should make one faster (providing they
have good sprinting ability and technique).

Your first sentence is the idea that makes a lot of sense- to have as
many useable hand positions as possible. The bars should be high enough
that you can comfortably ride in the drops for long periods of time
(say, a couple of hours). If you can only use them for sprinting, then
IMHO your bars are waaay too low.

There are a lot of factors that influence bar position: flexibility,
lower back and shoulder/arm strength, saddle setback are some. So are
structural issues, such as problems with lumbar or cervical disks, which
can result in pain. Pain in your back or neck is a sign that there is
something wrong, and it's REALLY worth paying attention to it. There is
NO good reason to cause damage or injury to yourself.

If you have to crane your head upwards to see where you are going, you
might experience some impingement of your spinal cord and actually cause
some weakness in your legs (this was measured in a sports medicine study
on time trialists about 10 years ago, finding that it actually slowed
them down). If your bars are too low, you will also place a lot of
compression on the ventral side of the lumber and lower thoracic disks,
but flattening out the normal lumbar curve. While a flat back is one of
the holy grails of "good" position, your back doesn't really like it.

When I started racing almost 15 years ago, at the advanced age of 32, I
could comfortably ride with my bars 11 cm lower than my saddle and could
use the drops for long periods. A decade and a half later, due to some
neck problems probably related to an injury when I was a freshman in
high school, my bars are now about 3 cm lower than my saddle.

Most people are probably most comfortable with the bars about level with
the saddle, give or take a few cm. Most road bikes are sized in such a
way as to make this practically impossible without 8-10 cm of spacers
under the (threadless) stem. In the last few years there has been some
recognition of this among the major bike makers, though, and getting the
bars high enough is easier than it was a few years ago.

In article <[email hidden]>,

RoadRider84 said:

I didnt say I was training in the drops ALL THE TIME, I said I only
experience the neck pain when racing down hill for longer than 10
minutes and LOOKING UP to see where im going.

Actually, you didn't say anything of the sort. I just went through this
whole thread. In fact one of your posts did give the strong impression
that you are riding in the drops all the time.

Perhaps what you meant would have been clearer if you had included a
quote from the post to which you were responding. It looks like you are
accessing the newsgroup through Google Groups, which is a really [censored]
interface and is a nuisance to deal with. You might consider trying an
actual newsreader:

http://www.newsreaders.com

Quoted message said:

Anyway ive been to see a phsiothereapist and she says this is normal
especially when coming down the Yorkshire moors becuase theyre so
steep, so I need to exercise my neck before training.worked a treat
yesterday

Well, that can help and I'm happy your neck felt better.

Quoted message said:

I didnt say I was training in the drops ALL THE TIME, I said I only
experience the neck pain when racing down hill for longer than 10
minutes and LOOKING UP to see where im going. Anyway ive been to see a
phsiothereapist and she says this is normal especially when coming down
the Yorkshire moors becuase theyre so steep, so I need to exercise my
neck before training.worked a treat yesterday

Again, there is no need to stay in the drops, even downhill, if you're
uncomfortable. Glad you found an exercise that helped though, but a lot of
neck pain occurs from being tense. The more relaxed you are, the less likely
you'll develop neck and shoulder pains. I'd also suggest that 10 minutes is,
in fact, a very long time to hold a single position on a road bike. You
probably move around on the bars quite a bit more when not descending, but
there's really only one position in the drops.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"RoadRider84" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I didnt say I was training in the drops ALL THE TIME, I said I only
experience the neck pain when racing down hill for longer than 10
minutes and LOOKING UP to see where im going. Anyway ive been to see a
phsiothereapist and she says this is normal especially when coming down
the Yorkshire moors becuase theyre so steep, so I need to exercise my
neck before training.worked a treat yesterday

I've found that I ride MORE on the drops recently than I had during the
past 10 or 15 years, although I'm certainly stiffer and older than ever.

But,... I have also gradually raised the tops of my bars to, at most,
just a few cm below my saddle. Another thing which has helped me is
setting the angle of the bottoms of the bars so the ends point downward
a bit more than I'd had them - (which is to say, they are now NOT
basically parallel with the ground).

This way I can always keep my elbows slightly bent which helps to absorb
some of the road shock which would otherwise be transmitted to the rest
of my skeleton. Without this subtle tilt of the drops I'd be stretching
my arms more straight to compensate for the inevitable pressure on my
wrists from twisting them forward to grasp the bars.

It's probably just simple geometry, but I'm a dummy so it was news to
me. Try this: Take a broom handle or a wooden dowel a couple feet
long. Sit on your bike. Tilt forward with your fist resting just
against the side the drops and see where the dowel is tilted when your
arms and hands are in a "fairly" comfortable position. When I tried
this experiment, I was quite surprised how different my normal
inclination was from how an... uh... "aesthetically set up" handlebar
was positioned.

Of course, you don't want to ride in a position where you're holding the
bars as if you'd be preparing to plant a pair of cross country ski
poles. Stretched in that position you'd tend to push too much of your
weight forward, anyway - which you don't want.

I think that over the past couple decades, in spite of all the research
which has been put into ergonomics, which shows us, technically, the
"best" riding (or should I say Racing) positions, we've really strayed
from some of the long learned experience, from the previous decades of
actual cycling on the road, about what produces a "comfortable" riding
position for long hours in the saddle. And, this is definitely NOT the
same as what Lance Armstrong would consider following his wind tunnel
determined positioning. But, then again, I'm not being paid millions of
dollars to be (nor even to "appear" to be!!!) the speediest thing on two
human propelled wheels... although most bike manufacturers would
apparently wish me to accept that as appropriate.

In my mid-fifties now, I cherish every painless hour I can spend in the
saddle. I find I've also come to prefer riding my archaically tall
vintage steel racing bikes which seem to compliment my own aging frame.
I'm content with my pleasant and comfortable 100 mile regular day-rides
(without any back, neck, wrist pain) and perhaps I'll just look like an
obsolete TDF racer from the 1930s, rather than a typical cyclist in the
21st century. But, I intend to keep cycling forever, so, whatever it
takes...

Alas, a 23 to 24 pound bike will never win me any races.... But, neither
will this years prettiest 15 pound compact frame carbon fiber bike.
[Apologies to struggling retail racing bike merchants everywhere].

Quoted message said:

If you have to crane your head upwards to see where you are going, you
might experience some impingement of your spinal cord and actually cause
some weakness in your legs (this was measured in a sports medicine study
on time trialists about 10 years ago, finding that it actually slowed
them down). If your bars are too low, you will also place a lot of
compression on the ventral side of the lumber and lower thoracic disks,
but flattening out the normal lumbar curve. While a flat back is one of
the holy grails of "good" position, your back doesn't really like it.

This guy does pretty well at time trials with a pretty big curve in his
back-

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2005/tour05/?id=tour051/cycling-tdf2005-itt-arms-62http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2005/tour05/?id=tour051/cycling-tdf2005-itt-arms-62

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Greg said:

IMHO, the objective when setting up the height of the bars is to give
one as many options as possible.

Yes.

Quoted message said:

In considering how many places there are to ride on the bars, I can
count 4 major ones: The tops of the bars, the forward section of the
tops, the brake hoods, and the drops.

For "sit-up" and relax, I use the tops as I can sit up as straight as
I need to. For most all of my solo and general riding, I find myself
using the forward section of the bar, just behind where the lever
mounts to the bar. I can ride in this position with my arms loose
and relaxed. When riding in a fast paceline, I ride on on the hoods
for better access to the brakes. This puts me an inch or two more
forward, and thus a bit lower and more "flat". Pretty much the only
time I ride in the drops is when I am sprinting.

So in other words the drops are pretty well useless to you.

Quoted message said:

If you look at all those together, it makes sense to have the bars as
low as possible while still able to remain comfortable on the forward
top section. Having the bar lower will help to lower your frontal
area when sprinting, which should make one faster (providing they
have good sprinting ability and technique).

Your first sentence is the idea that makes a lot of sense- to have as
many useable hand positions as possible. The bars should be high enough
that you can comfortably ride in the drops for long periods of time
(say, a couple of hours). If you can only use them for sprinting, then
IMHO your bars are waaay too low.

There are a lot of factors that influence bar position: flexibility,
lower back and shoulder/arm strength, saddle setback are some. So are
structural issues, such as problems with lumbar or cervical disks, which
can result in pain. Pain in your back or neck is a sign that there is
something wrong, and it's REALLY worth paying attention to it. There is
NO good reason to cause damage or injury to yourself.

If you have to crane your head upwards to see where you are going, you
might experience some impingement of your spinal cord and actually cause
some weakness in your legs (this was measured in a sports medicine study
on time trialists about 10 years ago, finding that it actually slowed
them down). If your bars are too low, you will also place a lot of
compression on the ventral side of the lumber and lower thoracic disks,
but flattening out the normal lumbar curve. While a flat back is one of
the holy grails of "good" position, your back doesn't really like it.

When I started racing almost 15 years ago, at the advanced age of 32, I
could comfortably ride with my bars 11 cm lower than my saddle and could
use the drops for long periods. A decade and a half later, due to some
neck problems probably related to an injury when I was a freshman in
high school, my bars are now about 3 cm lower than my saddle.

Most people are probably most comfortable with the bars about level with
the saddle, give or take a few cm. Most road bikes are sized in such a
way as to make this practically impossible without 8-10 cm of spacers
under the (threadless) stem. In the last few years there has been some
recognition of this among the major bike makers, though, and getting the
bars high enough is easier than it was a few years ago.

Tim McNamara said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Greg said:

IMHO, the objective when setting up the height of the bars is to give
one as many options as possible.

Yes.

Quoted message said:

In considering how many places there are to ride on the bars, I can
count 4 major ones: The tops of the bars, the forward section of the
tops, the brake hoods, and the drops.

For "sit-up" and relax, I use the tops as I can sit up as straight as
I need to. For most all of my solo and general riding, I find myself
using the forward section of the bar, just behind where the lever
mounts to the bar. I can ride in this position with my arms loose
and relaxed. When riding in a fast paceline, I ride on on the hoods
for better access to the brakes. This puts me an inch or two more
forward, and thus a bit lower and more "flat". Pretty much the only
time I ride in the drops is when I am sprinting.

So in other words the drops are pretty well useless to you.

Quoted message said:

If you look at all those together, it makes sense to have the bars as
low as possible while still able to remain comfortable on the forward
top section. Having the bar lower will help to lower your frontal
area when sprinting, which should make one faster (providing they
have good sprinting ability and technique).

Your first sentence is the idea that makes a lot of sense- to have as
many useable hand positions as possible. The bars should be high enough
that you can comfortably ride in the drops for long periods of time
(say, a couple of hours). If you can only use them for sprinting, then
IMHO your bars are waaay too low.

There are a lot of factors that influence bar position: flexibility,
lower back and shoulder/arm strength, saddle setback are some. So are
structural issues, such as problems with lumbar or cervical disks, which
can result in pain. Pain in your back or neck is a sign that there is
something wrong, and it's REALLY worth paying attention to it. There is
NO good reason to cause damage or injury to yourself.

If you have to crane your head upwards to see where you are going, you
might experience some impingement of your spinal cord and actually cause
some weakness in your legs (this was measured in a sports medicine study
on time trialists about 10 years ago, finding that it actually slowed
them down). If your bars are too low, you will also place a lot of
compression on the ventral side of the lumber and lower thoracic disks,
but flattening out the normal lumbar curve. While a flat back is one of
the holy grails of "good" position, your back doesn't really like it.

When I started racing almost 15 years ago, at the advanced age of 32, I
could comfortably ride with my bars 11 cm lower than my saddle and could
use the drops for long periods. A decade and a half later, due to some
neck problems probably related to an injury when I was a freshman in
high school, my bars are now about 3 cm lower than my saddle.

Most people are probably most comfortable with the bars about level with
the saddle, give or take a few cm. Most road bikes are sized in such a
way as to make this practically impossible without 8-10 cm of spacers
under the (threadless) stem. In the last few years there has been some
recognition of this among the major bike makers, though, and getting the
bars high enough is easier than it was a few years ago.

The drops are certainly not "pretty well useless to me". I use them
for sprinting because I can get my upper body as low as possible. I do
sprint workouts, so they DO get used.

Why do I need to have my bars high enough to allow me to ride long
periods of time in them? Why can I not do that on the tops? If I
raise my bar so that I CAN do that, it seems to me I am just putting my
body in the same position as if I were on the tops, so why do that and
lose the lower, more aero position for sprinting?

My bars are set to 9cm below the saddle. There are a great many other
considerations and that number cannot be looked at and judged in
isolation.

The arrangement I described works for me in all positions mentioned and
I have no problems with it. As stated in my original post, it is
simply my opinion and what works for me.

Greg Wood