back butterfly

"leu02am" left this mess on Thu, 24 Jul 2003 15:20:25 +0100 for The Way to clean up:

Quoted message said:

I've never seen it, I just made it out of my imagination and experimented it with some good
results. Wonder if some of you maybe more experienced swimmers can put some academy into the style.

Basically you look up like for backstroke but move both arms down at the same time, and when my
hands are surfacing, I bend my body over slightly.

The technique works, but I dont see it as a recognised professional style.

Who has any comments or improvements?

I've seen it (and used it) as a training stroke, to help define the inferior muscles in the fly,
frontwards.

Tao te Carl

"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

leu02am said:

I've never seen it, I just made it out of my imagination and experimented it with some good
results. Wonder if some of you maybe more experienced swimmers can put some academy into
the style.

Basically you look up like for backstroke but move both arms down at the same time, and when my
hands are surfacing, I bend my body over slightly.

The technique works, but I dont see it as a recognised professional style.

Who has any comments or improvements?

AKA old English backstroke, superceded by back crawl, but still used by some masters swimmers. (It's
20% faster than my back crawl.)
--
Brian D

i do this everyday with training fins to train my arms as a variation along with normal backstroke.
never seen anyone else in the pool does it though.

In leu02am said:

The technique works, but I dont see it as a recognised professional style.

Reminds me of the "two-armed backstroke," done with a frog kick, by an old guy leisurely taking an
entire lane to himself at a pace of about
1min/25yds.

:-)

Ross

Ross Bogue said:

In leu02am said:

The technique works, but I dont see it as a recognised professional style.

Reminds me of the "two-armed backstroke," done with a frog kick, by an old guy leisurely taking an
entire lane to himself at a pace of about
1min/25yds.

Officially known as the Elementary Backstroke.

martin

--
Martin Smith email: [email hidden] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway

Dear de Valois

yours are very smart comments; petty that since you tried the stroke you joined the "club" too.

Thank you for the bench mark for missing the point.

ang

"de Valois" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"leu02am" left this mess on Thu, 24 Jul 2003 15:20:25 +0100 for The Way to

clean

Quoted message said:

up:

Quoted message said:

I've never seen it, I just made it out of my imagination and experimented

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with some good results. Wonder if some of you maybe more experienced swimmers can put some
academy into the style.

Basically you look up like for backstroke but move both arms down at the same time, and when my
hands are surfacing, I bend my body over slightly.

The technique works, but I dont see it as a recognised professional

style.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Who has any comments or improvements?

I've seen it (and used it) as a training stroke, to help define the

inferior

Quoted message said:

muscles in the fly, frontwards.

Tao te Carl

"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

"Martin left this mess on Fri, 25 Jul 2003 12:54:27 +0200 for The Way to clean up:

Quoted message said:

Ross Bogue said:

In leu02am said:

The technique works, but I dont see it as a recognised professional style.

Reminds me of the "two-armed backstroke," done with a frog kick, by an old guy leisurely taking
an entire lane to himself at a pace of about
1min/25yds.

Officially known as the Elementary Backstroke.

Isn't the official E.B. where you keep your hands in a sort of breaststroke configuration?

Tao te Carl

"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

x-no-archive:yes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Reminds me of the "two-armed backstroke," done with a frog kick, by an old guy leisurely taking
an entire lane to himself at a pace of about
1min/25yds.

Officially known as the Elementary Backstroke.

martin

Yes, that's it. I do it all the time with variations on arm movement so as to work different back
muscles. Also, it's good for really stretching the legs if you bring your heels up to your buttocks
before kicking out.

Pat in TX

de Valois said:

"Martin left this mess on Fri, 25 Jul 2003 12:54:27 +0200 for The Way to clean up:

Quoted message said:

Ross Bogue said:

In <[email hidden]> leu02am wrote:
>
> The technique works, but I dont see it as a recognised professional style.

Reminds me of the "two-armed backstroke," done with a frog kick, by an old guy leisurely taking
an entire lane to himself at a pace of about
1min/25yds.

Officially known as the Elementary Backstroke.

Isn't the official E.B. where you keep your hands in a sort of breaststroke configuration?

If you did that on your back, your hands would be up in the air.

martin

--
Martin Smith email: [email hidden] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway

"Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

x-no-archive:yes

hello, thank you very much you all for the interesting comments.

In my local swimming pool there is only one professional swimmer, and a few well trained. The others
are enthusiasts, and asking around most people find moving both arms at the same time very difficult
to master.

Its encouraging to know that "unusual" styles are growing in popularity.

ang

leu02am said:

Basically you look up like for backstroke but move both arms down at the same time, and when my
hands are surfacing, I bend my body over slightly.

Adolph Kiefer beat you to it and called it the Victory Backstroke:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>

Kiefer then attended the University of Texas and, in 1941, joined the U.S. Navy. He was recruited to
the Navy’s Physical Instructors School in Bainbridge, Md., where he led a movement to bring better
aquatics training to enlistees.

It was during a survey of early World War II shipwrecked survivors that Kiefer became greatly
distressed. He learned more sailors died by drowning than enemy fire. The sailors, he was told,
became frightened while under attack and jumped overboard, although many of them didn’t know how to
swim. Many also jumped with full gear on, which caused them to sink quickly.

Each survivor would write in his own words what happened, Kiefer says. We had cases where sailors
would be running all over the ship, jumping into the water, and drowning in the water while the ship
was still afloat.

With proper swimming instruction and lifesaving techniques, Kiefer felt that 80 percent of those who
drowned could’ve been saved. He couldn’t sleep at night.

So, now 26 years old, Kiefer traveled to Washington, D.C., and spoke to an admiral. Impressed, the
admiral told Kiefer to organize a committee to write new guidelines and a training manual. Kiefer
then helped set up a training complex at the Bainbridge base and a 21-hour basic swim training
program for new sailors, which included Kiefer’s well-known Victory backstroke.

No one knows how many lives Kiefer’s training has saved. Initially, Kiefer trained 13,000 wartime
instructors, who then went back to training camps and taught the program to more than 2 million
enlistees.

Sixty years after launching the program, Kiefer got what he calls one of the greatest thrills
in his life.

I was in Athens last year during October to visit with the Olympic Committee, he says. (The 2004
Games will be in Greece.) We stayed at this hotel and I was swimming in the pool and sitting nearby
was this elderly guy, like me, and his wife. I got to talking to him and he said he was a captain in
the Navy and that he was retired now. I’m standing there, dripping wet, and he related the name of
his ship and an area of battle and he said, ‘You know, I saved my life swimming the backstroke.’ It
made me feel very proud that I had something to do with it. That’s better than the gold medal.

Also while conducting his survey of shipwrecks, Kiefer came across German life vests and ring buoys
made of PVC foam, unlike the U.S. standard canvas-covered cork. He convinced the Coast Guard and
several U.S. companies to produce the much-lighter PVC devices, which are still used today. Kiefer
also became the first instructor for Navy scuba divers.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>

aquaticsintl.com0302 kiefer.htmlOpen ↗

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

leu02am said:

Basically you look up like for backstroke but move both arms down at the same time, and when my
hands are surfacing, I bend my body over slightly.

Adolph Kiefer beat you to it and called it the Victory Backstroke:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>

Kiefer then attended the University of Texas and, in 1941, joined the U.S. Navy. He was recruited to
the Navy’s Physical Instructors School in Bainbridge, Md., where he led a movement to bring better
aquatics training to enlistees.

It was during a survey of early World War II shipwrecked survivors that Kiefer became greatly
distressed. He learned more sailors died by drowning than enemy fire. The sailors, he was told,
became frightened while under attack and jumped overboard, although many of them didn’t know how to
swim. Many also jumped with full gear on, which caused them to sink quickly.

Each survivor would write in his own words what happened, Kiefer says. We had cases where sailors
would be running all over the ship, jumping into the water, and drowning in the water while the ship
was still afloat.

With proper swimming instruction and lifesaving techniques, Kiefer felt that 80 percent of those who
drowned could’ve been saved. He couldn’t sleep at night.

So, now 26 years old, Kiefer traveled to Washington, D.C., and spoke to an admiral. Impressed, the
admiral told Kiefer to organize a committee to write new guidelines and a training manual. Kiefer
then helped set up a training complex at the Bainbridge base and a 21-hour basic swim training
program for new sailors, which included Kiefer’s well-known Victory backstroke.

No one knows how many lives Kiefer’s training has saved. Initially, Kiefer trained 13,000 wartime
instructors, who then went back to training camps and taught the program to more than 2 million
enlistees.

Sixty years after launching the program, Kiefer got what he calls one of the greatest thrills
in his life.

I was in Athens last year during October to visit with the Olympic Committee, he says. (The 2004
Games will be in Greece.) We stayed at this hotel and I was swimming in the pool and sitting nearby
was this elderly guy, like me, and his wife. I got to talking to him and he said he was a captain in
the Navy and that he was retired now. I’m standing there, dripping wet, and he related the name of
his ship and an area of battle and he said, ‘You know, I saved my life swimming the backstroke.’ It
made me feel very proud that I had something to do with it. That’s better than the gold medal.

Also while conducting his survey of shipwrecks, Kiefer came across German life vests and ring buoys
made of PVC foam, unlike the U.S. standard canvas-covered cork. He convinced the Coast Guard and
several U.S. companies to produce the much-lighter PVC devices, which are still used today. Kiefer
also became the first instructor for Navy scuba divers.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>

aquaticsintl.com0302 kiefer.htmlOpen ↗

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

leu02am said:

Basically you look up like for backstroke but move both arms down at the same time, and when my
hands are surfacing, I bend my body over slightly.

Adolph Kiefer beat you to it and called it the Victory Backstroke:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>

Kiefer then attended the University of Texas and, in 1941, joined the U.S. Navy. He was recruited to
the Navy’s Physical Instructors School in Bainbridge, Md., where he led a movement to bring better
aquatics training to enlistees.

It was during a survey of early World War II shipwrecked survivors that Kiefer became greatly
distressed. He learned more sailors died by drowning than enemy fire. The sailors, he was told,
became frightened while under attack and jumped overboard, although many of them didn’t know how to
swim. Many also jumped with full gear on, which caused them to sink quickly.

Each survivor would write in his own words what happened, Kiefer says. We had cases where sailors
would be running all over the ship, jumping into the water, and drowning in the water while the ship
was still afloat.

With proper swimming instruction and lifesaving techniques, Kiefer felt that 80 percent of those who
drowned could’ve been saved. He couldn’t sleep at night.

So, now 26 years old, Kiefer traveled to Washington, D.C., and spoke to an admiral. Impressed, the
admiral told Kiefer to organize a committee to write new guidelines and a training manual. Kiefer
then helped set up a training complex at the Bainbridge base and a 21-hour basic swim training
program for new sailors, which included Kiefer’s well-known Victory backstroke.

No one knows how many lives Kiefer’s training has saved. Initially, Kiefer trained 13,000 wartime
instructors, who then went back to training camps and taught the program to more than 2 million
enlistees.

Sixty years after launching the program, Kiefer got what he calls one of the greatest thrills
in his life.

I was in Athens last year during October to visit with the Olympic Committee, he says. (The 2004
Games will be in Greece.) We stayed at this hotel and I was swimming in the pool and sitting nearby
was this elderly guy, like me, and his wife. I got to talking to him and he said he was a captain in
the Navy and that he was retired now. I’m standing there, dripping wet, and he related the name of
his ship and an area of battle and he said, ‘You know, I saved my life swimming the backstroke.’ It
made me feel very proud that I had something to do with it. That’s better than the gold medal.

Also while conducting his survey of shipwrecks, Kiefer came across German life vests and ring buoys
made of PVC foam, unlike the U.S. standard canvas-covered cork. He convinced the Coast Guard and
several U.S. companies to produce the much-lighter PVC devices, which are still used today. Kiefer
also became the first instructor for Navy scuba divers.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>

aquaticsintl.com0302 kiefer.htmlOpen ↗

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

Ross Bogue wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Reminds me of the "two-armed backstroke," done with a frog kick, by an old guy leisurely taking an
entire lane to himself at a pace of about
1min/25yds.

As Brian wrote, this is the "old English backstroke," which is legal in backstroke competition, and
is fairly often seen at Masters competitions here in Japan. I use it as a warm-down stroke when I am
dead tired.

Although identified with old geezers, it's actually pretty hard to do well as far as the leg
recovery goes.

"Martin left this mess on Fri, 25 Jul 2003 15:07:54 +0200 for The Way to clean up:

Quoted message said:

de Valois said:

"Martin left this mess on Fri, 25 Jul 2003 12:54:27 +0200 for The Way to clean up:

Quoted message said:

Ross Bogue wrote:
>
> In <[email hidden]> leu02am wrote:
> >
> > The technique works, but I dont see it as a recognised professional style.
>
> Reminds me of the "two-armed backstroke," done with a frog kick, by an old guy leisurely
> taking an entire lane to himself at a pace of about
> 1min/25yds.

Officially known as the Elementary Backstroke.

Isn't the official E.B. where you keep your hands in a sort of breaststroke configuration?

If you did that on your back, your hands would be up in the air.

Obviously, you keep your hands along your sides. You pull them up from your hips to your armpits,
flare them out, and then stroke down. I said a "sort of" breaststroke.

Tao te Carl

"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

de Valois said:

"Martin left this mess on Fri, 25 Jul 2003 15:07:54 +0200 for The Way to clean up:

Quoted message said:

de Valois said:

"Martin left this mess on Fri, 25 Jul 2003 12:54:27 +0200 for The Way to clean up:
>
>Ross Bogue wrote:
>>
>> In <[email hidden]> leu02am wrote:
>> >
>> > The technique works, but I dont see it as a recognised professional style.
>>
>> Reminds me of the "two-armed backstroke," done with a frog kick, by an old guy leisurely
>> taking an entire lane to himself at a pace of about
>> 1min/25yds.
>
>Officially known as the Elementary Backstroke.
>

Isn't the official E.B. where you keep your hands in a sort of breaststroke configuration?

If you did that on your back, your hands would be up in the air.

Obviously, you keep your hands along your sides. You pull them up from your hips to your armpits,
flare them out, and then stroke down. I said a "sort of" breaststroke.

But that isn't like the breastsroke.

martin

--
Martin Smith email: [email hidden] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway