Avalon 50 miler report

Dan - congrats! Thanks for another fascinating report.
I'd love to run some ultras - we don't really have them over here...

Hope that you have a quick recovery.

Anthony.

Dan Stumpus said:

Abstract: 2:00 am Miracle. Fast walking, as taught by a master.
Lemon-lime Gator-barf. Wilting fatigue, heat. Resignation. Cramps.
Buffalo burger bits? Death and rebirth. Actual barf. Pain. Who
really wants 5th place, anyway? Acceptance of the order of the
universe. Gratitude. <snip>

I really enjoyed your report Dan. Nothing like reading about someone else's
pain for cheering a person up. ;-)

Congrats on your position too!

Tim

"Dan Stumpus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Abstract: 2:00 am Miracle. Fast walking, as taught by a master.

Learn at the race? Additional discussion later.....

< Lemon-lime Gator-barf.

You are a better man than me. I drank one cup of that at the HAT race
and damn near blew chunks. I thought it was the Mountain Dew (MD)
section(My addictive drug as Tom calls it) . If GB is the drink de jour
I will drink water, watered coke or watered MD and get my carbs from
solid food and as always my salt from s!caps. If you drinl enough such
that it makes you sick, it screws up just about any fluid ingestion,
even water.

< Cramps.

Too much heat and too little acclimation even with S!Caps. I had that
last year at Bull Run. Sudden 80's after training all winter in 0-40.
The old body didn't know whether to [censored] or go blind. Took me a couple
of hours to come around while I usually pop a Heineken and grab some
food.

Quoted message said:

Death and rebirth.

Rebirth means you are in great shape. The under trained can't get
through bad spells and ther bad spells get worse.

Quoted message said:

I started off easy, and found myself alongside Kim as we started up
the 1800 foot steep climb to the ridge of the island. I jogged easily
up the grade, but Kim was fast-hiking as fast as I was running. Since
she beat me by 12 minutes here last year, I started fast walking
alongside her. Soon I was at my target heart rate of 140, but the
hiking worked different muscles. We were keeping up with the people
in front of us who were running. I got to the 9 mile aid station in
about the same time as last year, walking 80% of the climb versus
running every step, and felt fresher. You learn something every day.

There are very few runners, even the front runners that run every inch -
they can simply hike the [censored] out of them faster because they are
generally faster at everything. I admit I seldom read weekly training
schedules and the few I do I review, it's a cursory glance. I do know
you do lots of hills and more miles than I do. You goals are different
than mine- you want top 10 I want top 200. 🙂

Let me offer some thoughts on the hiking aspect. My usual preface, In
my opinion being a good power hiker is what will get and keep you in the
top 10. Hopefully lady Gimenez shed some light from one that runs in the
front. If you review your logs how much pure hiking did you do? Do you
find you feel hiking is almost cheating or taking the easy path? For
some, and I'm not sayin you, this is the maraton mentality that some
people can't shake - to walk a step is being a wussy.

Let me toss out what I do if nothing else some food for thought. Every
other week we run the "hill." There are variations and each achieves
different results. These runs last about 3-3 1/2 months. The two basic
variations are; up and down the steepest side 2 1/2 miles up and 1,100
gain(and loss- ya gotta get back); and a 9 mile loop to include the
hill. For the nine mile loop I reverse directions. Going in reverse is
less steep but 3 miles of up. They call it torture, I call it character
building.

We spend the first two months building up laps and loops and attempting
to run every inch. Some have to walk just to get up at first but soon
master breathing through their ears and moving forward at a glacial pace
and not walk a step. For overall variety and varied audience, not all
are doing ultras, I mix and match the workouts from two nine mile loops
to N up-n-backs plus the big loop. Like an ala carte menu each person
can pick and choose. I lay the workout and time slots and Email them on
Thursdays for planning purposes.

As we get about a month or so from the race I toss in a hike of the
steep up-n-back. I know they feel like they are chatting when I suggest
we hike one. Of course hiking one is usually not to debilitating. The
next time it's two hikes. And finally about two weeks before the race,
we hike three. Then the Email came with the general theme - OUCH! My
reply, you will love me race day. 😉

While I'm focusing on the uphill aspect of the workouts also note that
what goes up much come down. They also get three months of some serious
down hill quad crunching.

The proof in the pudding. Four of us did the HAT race, One twisted her
knee crossing a stream and had to bail on the first loop. Lesson learned
that jumping across wet rockstol keep shoes dry does not always work.
The other two did very well. One was brand new and had never even run a
marathon, She planned on 7 hours and did 6:30. The other has done it
twice both 6 hours. She ran 5:30 and is still floating in the clouds and
talking about a 50 in the fall. None of them had problems with
stamina(they ran smartly with pace) and no one had any quad problems. As
I wrote in a different note the 5:30 babe blew my doors off in the last
6 miles. She said the difference this year was her ability to hike well
during the race and she had never felt that strong the last 10,
especially the last 6.

By the way on the alternate week we run 13-22ish on an undulating but
different course. Each person controls their hard easy mileage by
varying the weeks. Some do all each week. I take their temps and if they
seem like they are slipping, I strongly suggest a minimal run the
following week and/or take it easy during the week. Some do track
workouts mid week.

My goal for these runs is hills and to build a strength base and we
achieve this. Sorry for the long windedness but I wanted to shed some
light on how I/we prep for a race. I do similar training, although
alone, when I start to ramp up for my July 100. My uphill becomes a 5
mile up and 2,500 gain and build slowly to 4 laps(40 miles and 10k).
Again my quads only give me problems in the last 10-15 miles.

Quoted message said:

At about 29 miles, at the start of a 3 mile descent, I had to let her
go. My quads were feeling pretty shredded, and there was 8 miles of
downhill remaining. I needed to baby my legs if I was going to make
it. It was frustrating having the uphill power available, but being
limited by the shredded-beef syndrome that seems to be my bugaboo
lately. Gotta talk to Doug about that one...

I hope the my missive above offers some thoughts.

Quoted message said:

It gets worse. Runner #7, way behind at the Isthmus, charges up
(well, shuffles up) to me as I'm walking under the sweating sun. He
walks and chats a bit, then says "I just want to finish this thing!"
and jogs off. I start running too, and wham, a full-on hamstring
cramp makes me look like John Cleese's Minister of silly walks. Ouch,
those suckers hurt! So I chugged every drop of the foul swill in my
bottles, took another Succeed cap, and walked some more.

And, lo and behold, the cramps subsided. I willed myself to start
jogging, just barely shuffling. No cramps.

Sounds like some dehydration and the S!C took hold. Sudden heat and not
being acclimated really screws up one's system.

Quoted message said:

I decided (after ascertaining that he was a youngster) that I would
just jog it in. I've run through this kind of quad pain, and the
result is more muscle damage and a much longer recovery. And I was
being a wuss :-)

It's also called the wisdom of age, aka, live to run another day. 🙂

-Doug.

Dan Stumpus wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Abstract: 2:00 am Miracle. Fast walking, as taught by a master.

Lemon-lime

Quoted message said:

Gator-barf. Wilting fatigue, heat. Resignation. Cramps. Buffalo burger
bits? Death and rebirth. Actual barf. Pain. Who really wants 5th place,
anyway? Acceptance of the order of the universe. Gratitude.

Considering illness, great race dan. Watch out you don't get bronchitis or
something this week! Sounds like some nasty heat this early in the year.

Quoted message said:

snip<
I started off easy, and found myself alongside Kim as we started up the

1800

Quoted message said:

foot steep climb to the ridge of the island. I jogged easily up the grade,
but Kim was fast-hiking as fast as I was running. Since she beat me by 12
minutes here last year, I started fast walking alongside her. Soon I was

at

Quoted message said:

my target heart rate of 140, but the hiking worked different muscles. We
were keeping up with the people in front of us who were running. I got to
the 9 mile aid station in about the same time as last year, walking 80% of
the climb versus running every step, and felt fresher. You learn something
every day.

When it gets really steep, I find that taking *very* short quick steps, as
opposed to longer power-walk strides, leaves me much fresher in the end. I'm
curious if you found the same thing, or noticed if others seem to take very
short steps.

(My theory is that longer strides up very steep slopes can be more anaerobic
and thus in the end will wear out the legs more than very short quick steps.
This was debated as high-cadence cycling and stride length last year. After
trying it I believe in it.)

-Tony

Quoted message said:

snipped<

WOW! Big congrats, Dan. I'm just exhausted reading the (excellent)
report. Way to hang in there. Sounds like it was just a little too
hot to be easily (I know, haha) doable. I am impressed.

Teresa in AZ

Dan Stumpus said:

Abstract: 2:00 am Miracle. Fast walking, as taught by a master. Lemon-lime
Gator-barf. Wilting fatigue, heat. Resignation. Cramps. Buffalo burger
bits? Death and rebirth. Actual barf. Pain. Who really wants 5th place,
anyway? Acceptance of the order of the universe. Gratitude.

Strolling around the island town of Avalon (pop ~2000), where golf carts
rule the roads, on what should have been a relaxing day before my first race
of the year, I was not happy. A sore throat, which I thought had been
vanquished by antibiotics, had returned. I prayed for a miracle -- and got
one when I woke up on race morning feeling great.

I started off easy, and found myself alongside Kim as we started up the 1800
foot steep climb to the ridge of the island. I jogged easily up the grade,
but Kim was fast-hiking as fast as I was running. Since she beat me by 12
minutes here last year, I started fast walking alongside her. Soon I was at
my target heart rate of 140, but the hiking worked different muscles. We
were keeping up with the people in front of us who were running. I got to
the 9 mile aid station in about the same time as last year, walking 80% of
the climb versus running every step, and felt fresher. You learn something
every day.

Over the next 8 miles, the three of us who were running together had burned
off the people in our vicinity. I used my heart monitor to quell my
excessive zeal. When my heart rate got up to 145, I announced I was slowing
a bit, and Brian and Kim dutifully followed my example. We found out at the
21 mile aid station that there were only 4 runners ahead of us! At about
mile 23, on a hot, endless climb, Brian dropped back. At the 26 mile
turn-around at the isthmus, I got a refreshing blast from a high-tech water
gun. Kim and I charged up the steep grade using her patented fast hike.

At about 29 miles, at the start of a 3 mile descent, I had to let her go.
My quads were feeling pretty shredded, and there was 8 miles of downhill
remaining. I needed to baby my legs if I was going to make it. It was
frustrating having the uphill power available, but being limited by the
shredded-beef syndrome that seems to be my bugaboo lately. Gotta talk to
Doug about that one...

So I gingerly ran down to the 33 mile station, and rounding a turn, I saw
the former 4th place guy struggling, walking and jogging downhill ahead of
me. He stopped to fix his blistered feet, and I kept on going, fully
expecting him to come roaring back. The evil side of me thought "I'm in 5th
Place!"

I filled my two bottles with more lemon-lime gatorade (gawd does that taste
awful), forced down a 1/4 pb&j sandwitch and a few pretzels, and shuffled
off. At this point all illusions of me striding smooth and determined to
the finish are shattered. It's hot, my quads feel like I ran a PR marathon
yesterday, and it's just survival. For the next hour I'm in the wilderness.
Fast hiking the ups, trying to run the downs. Even walking some flats, with
nervous glances behind me. An endless reel of roller-coaster course unwinds
in front of me. I'm breathing hard, but my heart rate is only 110! What is
this hell?

It gets worse. Runner #7, way behind at the Isthmus, charges up (well,
shuffles up) to me as I'm walking under the sweating sun. He walks and
chats a bit, then says "I just want to finish this thing!" and jogs off. I
start running too, and wham, a full-on hamstring cramp makes me look like
John Cleese's Minister of silly walks. Ouch, those suckers hurt! So I
chugged every drop of the foul swill in my bottles, took another Succeed
cap, and walked some more.

And, lo and behold, the cramps subsided. I willed myself to start jogging,
just barely shuffling. No cramps. So I gradually increased my speed. I
started feeling good -- heart rate up to 145. So it's hot uphill at mile
41, and suddenly I'm running strong, after being on the ropes for 5 miles.
Welcome to the world of ultras.

As I pulled into the 44 mile station, I saw the guy who passed me was just
a minute ahead. We're both walking up the last steep pitch (11% grade) to
the top of the island. As I come up on him, he staggers over to the side,
bends over and hurls mightily. I offer a kind word and forge on.

I started running at the crest, and after several little climbs, the nasty
paved descent began. With normally functioning legs, this three mile
winding road down to sea level, with it's gorgeous views, would be dessert.
I remember flying down it when I first ran this race in 1985.
Unfortunately, it's 2005 now. With shredded quads, it's torture. So I
played little games with myself, like: OK, run the next 6 turns and you can
walk for a minute. I took one short walk break, and as I was about to
start up, I heard the shuffling of little feet behind me, and it was my sick
friend come back to life, blasting down the mountain, with a mile and a half
to go. I decided (after ascertaining that he was a youngster) that I would
just jog it in. I've run through this kind of quad pain, and the result is
more muscle damage and a much longer recovery. And I was being a wuss :-)

With the finish line in sight, the adrenaline kicked in, and to the
scattered applause and cheers of vacationers on Crescent Avenue, I actually
looked like I was in a road race as I ran it in.

The field was weaker than last year (a few fast guys didn't show, and the
female course record holder skipped it too). End result: 6th overall,
first master, (and first 50+), and that inescapable whole-body fatigue that
makes you *not* want to lie down, because then you'll have to pay attention
to it. Kim, my hiking coach, got first woman and 4th overall. My time was
about 8:50.

-- Dan

Dan Stumpus said:

I got to
the 9 mile aid station in about the same time as last year, walking 80% of
the climb versus running every step, and felt fresher. You learn something
every day.

Dan,
I approach the walk training a little differently than Doug. Since I'm a
big believer in back/backs, occasionally I'll do a long run one day and
then do a long power hike/walk the next day in lieu of running both
days. I do the power walk on serious climbs because I know that's when
I'll be walking in races and doing them the day after a long run gets me
use to doing them when I'm tired. I focus on form, stride length and
turnover and by doing then on a 5M uphill with 3000' of climb, you get
plenty of opportunity to focus! I also walk the down on these days, as
learning to walk downs, and conditioning the muscles to do so, can come
in REAL useful if you're in a bonk and can't run them. And by walking
'em I save considerable wear & tear on these old knees so my recovery
from this type of back/back is pretty quick.

BTW, congrats on a nice race. I was volunteering at AR so guess that
siphoned off some folks.
--
- The Trailrunner

Anti-Spam Alert: If you wish to reply, cut the *BS*

Trails of the Diablo Valley
*Running - Hiking - Nature*
http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/trails/6016/

"Anthony" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Dan - congrats! Thanks for another fascinating report.

Thanks.

Quoted message said:

I'd love to run some ultras - we don't really have them over here..

However, the lack of them simply means that you have an opportunity to start
a trail 50k of your own, maybe on an easy-to-manage multiple out and back
course. Lots of them start out with a few friends-of-friends, and grow from
there.

-- Dan

"Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote

Quoted message said:

Considering illness, great race dan. Watch out you don't get bronchitis or
something this week! Sounds like some nasty heat this early in the year.

Just doing some easy hiking (for sanity) until I can jog without muscle
pain. Usually I can run pretty normally a day or two after that.

Quoted message said:

When it gets really steep, I find that taking *very* short quick steps, as
opposed to longer power-walk strides, leaves me much fresher in the end.
I'm
curious if you found the same thing, or noticed if others seem to take
very
short steps.

I found that I could match Kim's slightly shorter cadence, but felt more
comfortable at a longer stride. As the grade gets steeper, I shorten it,
and lengthen it on easier grades.

At the Baldy 50k (20% grade at 7-10k feet [2100-3000m] elevation), I was
happy taking quick, small steps. At this race (4-10% grades at sea level),
longer strides worked best for me.

When I'm fully striding out, and heartrate is below my target (135-145 for a
50 miler) that usually means it's time to start jogging. So it's kind of
like switching gears for me.

-- Dan

"Teresa Bippert-Plymate" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

WOW! Big congrats, Dan. I'm just exhausted reading the (excellent)
report. Way to hang in there. Sounds like it was just a little too
hot to be easily (I know, haha) doable. I am impressed.

In retrospect (isn't it always that way?) it really wasn't that bad. In
fact, now that I've given my quads a good workout they should be much
stronger, so I'm looking forward to my next race.

-- Dan

"The Trailrunner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dan Stumpus wrote:
I approach the walk training a little differently than Doug. Since I'm
a big believer in back/backs, occasionally I'll do a long run one day
and then do a long power hike/walk the next day in lieu of running
both days.

FWIW, I do these for 100'as but not 50's or 50k's.

-DF

"Dan Stumpus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Anthony" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Dan - congrats! Thanks for another fascinating report.

Thanks.

Quoted message said:

I'd love to run some ultras - we don't really have them over here..

However, the lack of them simply means that you have an opportunity to
start a trail 50k of your own, maybe on an easy-to-manage multiple out
and back course. Lots of them start out with a few
friends-of-friends, and grow from there.

Probably my stereotypical paranoia but I'd be scared [censored] to run
with either a back pack or waist belt considering the state of affairs.
If there is ever peace then yes.

-Doug

Dan Stumpus said:

Abstract: 2:00 am Miracle. Fast walking, as taught by a master. Lemon-lime
Gator-barf. Wilting fatigue, heat. Resignation. Cramps. Buffalo burger
bits? Death and rebirth. Actual barf. Pain. Who really wants 5th place,
anyway? Acceptance of the order of the universe. Gratitude.

<snip nice race report>

End result: 6th overall,

Quoted message said:

first master, (and first 50+), and that inescapable whole-body fatigue that
makes you *not* want to lie down, because then you'll have to pay attention
to it. Kim, my hiking coach, got first woman and 4th overall. My time was
about 8:50.

Congratulations, Dan on hanging in there. Sounds like you had expert
instruction and were a fast learner.

Dot

--
"running is a mysterious journey that we take not just to beat other
people or to stay in reasonable physical shape - but to find out more
about ourselves" - Owen Anderson

Doug Freese said:

<snipped Doug's excellent description of hill training>

Quoted message said:

I hope the my missive above offers some thoughts.

Thanks for that description of your general pattern of training. I've
kinda wondered what type variety you had in there, but also recognizing
that what people can run depends on topography.

Dot

--
"running is a mysterious journey that we take not just to beat other
people or to stay in reasonable physical shape - but to find out more
about ourselves" - Owen Anderson

Doug Freese said:

"The Trailrunner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dan Stumpus wrote:
I approach the walk training a little differently than Doug. Since I'm
a big believer in back/backs, occasionally I'll do a long run one day
and then do a long power hike/walk the next day in lieu of running
both days.

FWIW, I do these for 100'as but not 50's or 50k's.

-DF

TrailRunner and Doug,

Thanks for the comparisons in hill training. It's encouraging to see
that some of the ideas I've toyed with and seemed logical are things
that people really do. I adjust my plans (loosely used) as I progress
and I find out what I can handle and snow conditions vary.

Thanks again.

Dot

--
"running is a mysterious journey that we take not just to beat other
people or to stay in reasonable physical shape - but to find out more
about ourselves" - Owen Anderson

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

You are a better man than me. I drank one cup of that at the HAT race and
damn near blew chunks.

When it finally got to be just tooooo much, I switched to H2O & Coke. When
I ran this thing about 2 hrs faster in '85, I drank Coke like a demon, but
paid for it with an irregular pulse for about 12 hours -- caffeine
poisoning, according to my doc. So I'm leery about too much caffeine,
although it does work for me.

Quoted message said:

< Cramps.

Too much heat and too little acclimation even with S!Caps. I had that last
year at Bull Run. Sudden 80's after training all winter in 0-40. The old
body didn't know whether to [censored] or go blind.

So far (four times, now), just slamming down a lot of fluid and a Succeed
cap or two vanquishes cramps in a few minutes for me.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Death and rebirth.

Rebirth means you are in great shape. The under trained can't get through
bad spells and ther bad spells get worse.

My limiter this race wasn't my climbing or fitness, it was my
not-ready-for-prime-time quads. I still had plenty of gas to run up hills
at the end, it just hurt so much to go downhill (which is normally a
strength for me).

Quoted message said:

There are very few runners, even the front runners that run every inch -
they can simply hike the [censored] out of them faster because they are
generally faster at everything.

I talked to the winner of the Lost Boys 50 miler a couple of years ago (a
2:30 marathoner), and he complained that he ran every single step of that
tough race, and didn't better his time over the prior year when he hiked 4-5
miles of it.

I didn't realize that I'm a pretty decent walker, mainly 'cause I was
reluctant to hike that fast in races. Now I know I can hike quickly without
ill effects, so I'll work on it more. I notice some unusual soreness in the
back of my knees, probably hiking muscles.

Quoted message said:

Let me offer some thoughts on the hiking aspect. My usual preface, In my
opinion being a good power hiker is what will get and keep you in the top
10. Hopefully lady Gimenez shed some light from one that runs in the
front. If you review your logs how much pure hiking did you do? Do you
find you feel hiking is almost cheating or taking the easy path? For
some, and I'm not sayin you, this is the maraton mentality that some
people can't shake - to walk a step is being a wussy.

I think the key is that if you're getting your pulse up there (in the 140
range for me), It's really hard to call it cheating. I'll probably throw
30-60 minutes of hard (140+ pulse) hiking per week into my routine.

Quoted message said:

... For the nine mile loop I reverse directions. Going in reverse is
less steep but 3 miles of up. They call it torture, I call it character
building.

Call me weird, but I consider a flat run to be torture -- I love to train on
rolling terrain.

Quoted message said:

While I'm focusing on the uphill aspect of the workouts also note that
what goes up much come down. They also get three months of some serious
down hill quad crunching.

My post-mortem on the race (after reviewing last year's log), is that I
wasn't race-tough. Plenty of endurance, but no fast downhilling, no long
runs (only a couple of 24 milers), and no races for 4 months. I used to run
down Mt. Wilson (4500' descent in 10 miles) at a quick pace every couple of
weeks, and also did some downhill intervals during the week. Did neither
prior to this race, and paid for it.

The first big downhill race last year (20 miles of 10% grade downhill at Mt.
Baldy) crippled my quads, but 5 weeks later I ran my best race (a 50k
w/6500' of up/down) and could blast all the downhills without problems.

So, I think it was just sloppy preparation for my first race in months. And
fighting this infection for the last couple of weeks probably didn't help.

Quoted message said:

My goal for these runs is hills and to build a strength base and we
achieve this. Sorry for the long windedness but I wanted to shed some
light on how I/we prep for a race. I do similar training, although alone,
when I start to ramp up for my July 100. My uphill becomes a 5 mile up and
2,500 gain and build slowly to 4 laps(40 miles and 10k). Again my quads
only give me problems in the last 10-15 miles.

Quoted message said:

I hope the my missive above offers some thoughts.

I read it with great gusto...we're lucky (or unlucky) in LA in that you
cannot run in the mountains without getting 1-2k of elevation gain per hour.
The flattest (scenic) trail I've found has 700' of climb in an 8 mile
out-and-back.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I decided (after ascertaining that he was a youngster) that I would just
jog it in. I've run through this kind of quad pain, and the result is
more muscle damage and a much longer recovery. And I was being a wuss
:-)

It's also called the wisdom of age, aka, live to run another day. 🙂

I think I'll be able to jog pain-free on Wednesday, thanks to my wimp-out in
the last miles. Just a mite creaky today...

-- Dan

"The Trailrunner" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I got to the 9 mile aid station in about the same time as last year,
walking 80% of the climb versus running every step, and felt fresher.
You learn something every day.

Quoted message said:

I approach the walk training a little differently than Doug. Since I'm a
big believer in back/backs, occasionally I'll do a long run one day and
then do a long power hike/walk the next day in lieu of running both days.

Since I don't enjoy back-to-backs -- I feel like [censored] on day 2 and finally
decided to stop torturing myself -- I usually go 8 miles easy, and I do hike
up the steep ones, not as studiously as you, but I do get some in. I prefer
to get in shape by doing a 50k race rather than the old b2b.

Quoted message said:

I do the power walk on serious climbs because I know that's when I'll be
walking in races and doing them the day after a long run gets me use to
doing them when I'm tired. I focus on form, stride length and turnover and
by doing then on a 5M uphill with 3000' of climb, you get plenty of
opportunity to focus!

I'm gonna program some of this into my weekly routine now.

Quoted message said:

I also walk the down on these days, as learning to walk downs, and
conditioning the muscles to do so, can come in REAL useful if you're in a
bonk and can't run them. And by walking 'em I save considerable wear &
tear on these old knees so my recovery from this type of back/back is
pretty quick.

As mentioned in my reply to Doug, I need to make sure I've gotten some good
fast/long downhills in to toughen up my quads for racing.

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BTW, congrats on a nice race.

Thanks.

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I was volunteering at AR so guess that siphoned off some folks.

We were down about 25% in attendence this year, on account of the
storm-damage reschedule, and AR. I finished in about the same percentile as
last year (6th place vs. 8th place last year).

-- Dan

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Dan Stumpus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

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"Anthony" <[email hidden]> wrote

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Dan - congrats! Thanks for another fascinating report.

Thanks.

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I'd love to run some ultras - we don't really have them over here..

However, the lack of them simply means that you have an opportunity to
start a trail 50k of your own, maybe on an easy-to-manage multiple out
and back course. Lots of them start out with a few friends-of-friends,
and grow from there.

Probably my stereotypical paranoia but I'd be scared [censored] to run with
either a back pack or waist belt considering the state of affairs. If
there is ever peace then yes.

Doug - There's probably more chance of some nutter getting you at a National
Park
in the States than to a runner over here. From the hundreds of runners and
bikers here
who get out on various trails - noone has ever been attacked. Now - bikers
and idiots
on the roads - that's another story...

Anthony.

The Trailrunner wrote in message ...

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Dan Stumpus said:

I got to
the 9 mile aid station in about the same time as last year, walking 80%

of

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the climb versus running every step, and felt fresher. You learn

something

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every day.

Dan,
I approach the walk training a little differently than Doug. Since I'm a
big believer in back/backs, occasionally I'll do a long run one day and
then do a long power hike/walk the next day in lieu of running both
days. I do the power walk on serious climbs because I know that's when
I'll be walking in races and doing them the day after a long run gets me
use to doing them when I'm tired. I focus on form, stride length and
turnover and by doing then on a 5M uphill with 3000' of climb, you get
plenty of opportunity to focus! I also walk the down on these days, as
learning to walk downs, and conditioning the muscles to do so, can come
in REAL useful if you're in a bonk and can't run them. And by walking
'em I save considerable wear & tear on these old knees so my recovery
from this type of back/back is pretty quick.

Terrific idea for the 2nd day of a back-to-back, thanks. This is something I
could possibly do, when there's usually no way I'm up for running the 2nd
day. Just curious about your uphill walking form - is it long strides or
short? As I said elsewhere, I've found shorter quick strides seem to save
the legs better for later, at least for me.

-Tony

Tony said:

Terrific idea for the 2nd day of a back-to-back, thanks. This is something I
could possibly do, when there's usually no way I'm up for running the 2nd
day. Just curious about your uphill walking form - is it long strides or
short? As I said elsewhere, I've found shorter quick strides seem to save
the legs better for later, at least for me.

The slope pretty much determines the stride; the steeper it gets, the
shorter the stride. The key is keeping the turnover steady and the form
good. I prefer slightly bent forward at the waist but with my
back/shoulders/head aligned and my arms slightly bent at my sides
pumping mildly. Focus 10' or so in front of you (avoid the urge to keep
looking up to see how far it is!) and try and to keep the head from
bobbing. On a gradual slope where you're taking long strides keeping
cadence/form is fairly easy. But as the slope gets steeper, keeping that
same cadence and form becomes harder. That's where the mental focus
really becomes important and where doing it in training pays off in a
race. As Dan pointed out, it's not unusual for me to pass folks while
I'm walking and they're "running" uphill during races.

--
- The Trailrunner

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