Australian Cycling probe

Quoted post said:

It is not known if the rider's scholarship has been suspended pending the outcome of the investigation.

Rumours have been rife that an Australian track rider had tested positive, but Fredericks was adamant this was not the case.

Nonetheless, the fact there was a drugs investigation within the national team could have far-reaching repercussions for Australian cycling.

http://foxsports.news.com.au/story/0,8659,8329376-23218,00.html

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by steve
It is not known if the rider's scholarship has been suspended pending the outcome of the investigation.

Cyclingnews.com's news for January 6 says it has been.

cyclingnews.comnewsOpen ↗

How about a post mortem update for our fine Australian friends.

This smells of a cover up in the fine tradition of the my USA.

Let's get the minutes from Parliament on this.

The Assies are the fast on the banked surfaces----maybe that Wiggins guy is too---but the AIS has produced many super fast--all-round cyclists.

I vote them #1 for perfomance the past 10 years!

But I do not exempt them from suspicion.

I have the utmost respect for my Australian posters.

They are not 'imposters'. They are passionate lovers of sport.

The athletic achievements by Australians are tremendous. And I think, offer up the best-all-round athletes for most sports. (Tennis, triathlon, Track, Road, etc...)

I am sure there are many 'organic-based' athletes amongst you.

But not at the very tip top level of the key sports:

1) track, 200 meter sprinters, 4,000 meter pursuiters, Points Race and Madison

2) the top triathletes are no longer 'under-the-radar' anymore with five big busts in the last year. EPO, Nandrolone & T/E ratios at 27 to 1.

3) Road cycling at the Pro-Tour, Giro & TDF levels.

If your athletes, or any country's athletes are performing well in these international races, you can be assured they are using drugs/substances/methods which are technically illegal, but not detectable.

It is the way of the world at that level.

VeloFlash & Steve: If you do not think the AIS has a doping problem or at least the appearance of a 'doping problem', that's fine with me.

We have enough trouble with the USA federations, the legal tactics to keep dopers on the endorsement payroll, and coverups to keep us busy here. Donald Caitlin of the WADA approved UCLA Lab says even without 'designer drugs' the attorney fees alone can keep cheaters in business. His lab cannot fight every test result---as it has not the funds. The cheaters have the financial and legal advantage.

However, it might be informative to have an update of the Mark French or Shane Perkins cases. Or why Mark's AIS dormitory room was used as a 'shooting/injecting space' or why equine Growth Hormones and TestiComp appear to be drugs of preference amongst AIS members.

Any fresh news?

Flyer said:

I have the utmost respect for my Australian posters.

They are not 'imposters'. They are passionate lovers of sport.

The athletic achievements by Australians are tremendous. And I think, offer up the best-all-round athletes for most sports. (Tennis, triathlon, Track, Road, etc...)

I am sure there are many 'organic-based' athletes amongst you.

But not at the very tip top level of the key sports:

1) track, 200 meter sprinters, 4,000 meter pursuiters, Points Race and Madison

2) the top triathletes are no longer 'under-the-radar' anymore with five big busts in the last year. EPO, Nandrolone & T/E ratios at 27 to 1.

3) Road cycling at the Pro-Tour, Giro & TDF levels.

If your athletes, or any country's athletes are performing well in these international races, you can be assured they are using drugs/substances/methods which are technically illegal, but not detectable.

It is the way of the world at that level.

VeloFlash & Steve: If you do not think the AIS has a doping problem or at least the appearance of a 'doping problem', that's fine with me.

We have enough trouble with the USA federations, the legal tactics to keep dopers on the endorsement payroll, and coverups to keep us busy here. Donald Caitlin of the WADA approved UCLA Lab says even without 'designer drugs' the attorney fees alone can keep cheaters in business. His lab cannot fight every test result---as it has not the funds. The cheaters have the financial and legal advantage.

However, it might be informative to have an update of the Mark French or Shane Perkins cases. Or why Mark's AIS dormitory room was used as a 'shooting/injecting space' or why equine Growth Hormones and TestiComp appear to be drugs of preference amongst AIS members.

Any fresh news?

Flyer, I think you should digest a few facts before continuing on with this tirade against the AIS.

The AIS is a government instrumentality funded by taxpayers. It has public accountability through the parliament. The minister in charge of that portfolio has ministerial responsibility to ensure the public purse is not at risk. If the minister is seen to mishandle or be negligent in that responsibility the Westminster system of government demands a resignation.

There are checks and balances within the system to ensure the AIS is not party to any doping. The AIS has been in operation since the late 70's and has an untarnished record in relation to athlete doping.

If an athlete in Australia is doping, it is certainly without the knowledge and support, tacit or otherwise, of the AIS.

In contrast, USOC apparently had no public accountability for decades and evidence exists of coverups and doping encouragement.

You refer to the French's AIS dormitory as if it was part of the main AIS complex where all athletes reside and the AIS should have been cognizant of the events occurring under its roof.

NO. This was a small residential building (ex local pub I believe) for the cyclists high performance track unit in Adelaide located close to the Adelaide velodrome 100's of kms away from Canberra.

Mark French was legally unrepresented at his hearing. If he was represented he would have got off scot free. He admitted to administering a drug which was on the banned list at the time but had since been removed, like caffeine. He swung for this offence. Any legal representative would have discouraged this admission.

It's only considered a tirade when your favorite athletes are possibly involved. Now you understand how fans of Lance Armstrong feel when crazy people suggest that synthetic hormones might be required to win an international bike race.

It matters not whether Australian taxpayers fund the Olympic machine--Heck, even if the Vatican's Holy Water Trust Fund sponsored the camp, doping could and would still occur.

The facts are what hurts the AIS image. Mark French and Shane Perkins are recent World Champion products from AIS, no?

Both were busted, no? Both are very young, no?

My understanding was French was caught by housekeeping (not doping controllers) and he implicated five additional team members. In his AIS dormitory room. You say no, he was 100 km away in another town. Which is it? How did housekeeping track French to AIS teammates? Why did French confirm others had used his room?

No matter how we slice it, it sounds pretty bad for a 3-time World Champion and the system (AIS) that created him. (Testicomp & growth hormones)

Shane Perkins is the latest Junior to go positive (stimulant) but only after stealing away a podium spot from another junior (4th place)

That is rotten too. And it show it is not an 'isolated case'. Just the opposite, it appears a standard practice amongst World Champions.

I won't get into previous alumni (Neil Stephens alumni era etc....)

The facts are that a doping problem exist amongst the 17-19 years Australians. That is NOW in 2005.

So, AIS has plenty of public imagery to be worried about. French & Perkins did not dope on their own--they had plenty of help.

The AIS program is a raging success. I don't dispute that. But it's image is not pure either.

VeloFlash said:

Flyer, I think you should digest a few facts before continuing on with this tirade against the AIS.

The AIS is a government instrumentality funded by taxpayers. It has public accountability through the parliament. The minister in charge of that portfolio has ministerial responsibility to ensure the public purse is not at risk. If the minister is seen to mishandle or be negligent in that responsibility the Westminster system of government demands a resignation.

There are checks and balances within the system to ensure the AIS is not party to any doping. The AIS has been in operation since the late 70's and has an untarnished record in relation to athlete doping.

If an athlete in Australia is doping, it is certainly without the knowledge and support, tacit or otherwise, of the AIS.

In contrast, USOC apparently had no public accountability for decades and evidence exists of coverups and doping encouragement.

You refer to the French's AIS dormitory as if it was part of the main AIS complex where all athletes reside and the AIS should have been cognizant of the events occurring under its roof.

NO. This was a small residential building (ex local pub I believe) for the cyclists high performance track unit in Adelaide located close to the Adelaide velodrome 100's of kms away from Canberra.

Mark French was legally unrepresented at his hearing. If he was represented he would have got off scot free. He admitted to administering a drug which was on the banned list at the time but had since been removed, like caffeine. He swung for this offence. Any legal representative would have discouraged this admission.

Maybe Steve can confirm the location of AIS member Mark French's doping/injection room.

According to published reports it was in a National training Facility in Adelaide. I read it was in Mark's personal dormitory room.

Mark was a 3-time sprint World Champion and 19 years old. He was on scholarship from AIS at the time of the doping discovery.

Those are some of the facts and they speak poorly for the current reputation of AIS.

btw: Having a lawyer generally does help --- OJ Simpson, super star NFL athlete and a notorious drug abuser commited a double murder, hired a huge band of rotten lawyers and walked, (acquitted).

Later found 'responsible for their deaths' in civil court, but no jail time. French's case is a cake walk compared with bloody murder.

You are inferring that the AIS knowingly prepares doped athletes. Show us your evidence.

If there was even a whiff of suspicion that the AIS was involved in such a practices it would have been closed down. You made a comment that the AIS nearly foldered (sic) over the French affair. Show us your evidence.

It is publicly accountable not like Festina, Phonak, Cofidis et al.

The facility in Adelaide is for cyclists only and, I understand, the rooms are only cleaned by the housekeeper after they are vacated.

I support your view that most athletes to be competitive must resort to illegal drugs. However, the evidence clearly shows that the AIS plays no part in assisting the preparation of athletes through illegal drugs and methods. That is a personal (and usually secret decision) of the athletes.

Personal decision to dope?

yes and no. I doubt a 17 year kid knows what dosses and frequencies to use for 1) TestiComp 2) growth hormones 3) stimulants, all drugs they were found with. I believe an adult was involved---and that adult knows the AIS system.

Does AIS encourage doping? You decide.

The facts are these. Two World Champion Juniors, and members have been exposed as dopers;

Mark French & Shane Perkins

These class riders are showcase examples of success for AIS---and yet they dope.

That fact smears AIS and they must deal with that.

Obviously, whatever AIS has been doing is leading to doping.

We already knew AIS alumni were winners. We did not know, until now, that many are dopers too.

Maybe Steve has more updates of the other AIS athletes implicated in this recent scandal for Australia Cycling.

VeloFlash said:

You are inferring that the AIS knowingly prepares doped athletes. Show us your evidence.

If there was even a whiff of suspicion that the AIS was involved in such a practices it would have been closed down. You made a comment that the AIS nearly foldered (sic) over the French affair. Show us your evidence.

It is publicly accountable not like Festina, Phonak, Cofidis et al.

The facility in Adelaide is for cyclists only and, I understand, the rooms are only cleaned by the housekeeper after they are vacated.

I support your view that most athletes to be competitive must resort to illegal drugs. However, the evidence clearly shows that the AIS plays no part in assisting the preparation of athletes through illegal drugs and methods. That is a personal (and usually secret decision) of the athletes.

VeloFlash:

If you work for AIS the you have some work to do. Obviously there is a doping problem with your members. Deal with it, not the cover it.

Denying that AIS is a co-conspiractor are claiming a teenager makes personal choices is precisely what happened with UCSF and Lance Armstrong in 1990.

Lance and four of his teammates traveled the world with Rene Wenzel and Chris Carmichael. Injections were performed on these kids, under age 18 at the time, except for Lance who was 18 in 1990.

Years laters, after kids get sick a lawsuit is filed, Carmichael settled (or so it appears) and USCF is defunct, USA Cycling is now defending the doping allegations.

Not a damn thing changed in 15 years. In 1990 it was a USCF American scandal and in 2004 it was an Australian AIS doping case.

If you or your family work at AIS, I strongly urge you to squeeze the truth out of the staff---and housekeeping. In fact housekeeping is your best bet for the completely honest story.

btw: I think you mean 'lack of evidence' as opposed to evidence that AIS is a willing partner in institutional doping.

No e-mails, charts, web diaries or tearful confessions by former staffers etc....

That would be a shock, wouldn't it?

VeloFlash said:

You are inferring that the AIS knowingly prepares doped athletes. Show us your evidence.

If there was even a whiff of suspicion that the AIS was involved in such a practices it would have been closed down. You made a comment that the AIS nearly foldered (sic) over the French affair. Show us your evidence.

It is publicly accountable not like Festina, Phonak, Cofidis et al.

The facility in Adelaide is for cyclists only and, I understand, the rooms are only cleaned by the housekeeper after they are vacated.

I support your view that most athletes to be competitive must resort to illegal drugs. However, the evidence clearly shows that the AIS plays no part in assisting the preparation of athletes through illegal drugs and methods. That is a personal (and usually secret decision) of the athletes.

I read that Jobie Dajka article on CN with interest....

Dead Star said:

I read that Jobie Dajka article on CN with interest....

Jobie Dajka does not hold an AIS scholarship nor is financially assisted by the AIS. His funding was withdrawn in 2004 over his dishonesty to the French enquiry which also included his sacking from the Olympics. He is a South Australian resident and has only local (South Australia) State support.

His State facility, the Adelaide Super-drome sports complex, is where the AIS high performance track squad train and the AIS and State share facilities.

He was told he may be looking at a four year ban from cycling over this incident of alleged assault and has reacted accordingly in a bitter manner.

Dajka will have his day in Court where he has every opportunity to plead his case and produce evidence. His track record of having been caught lying under oath will not be helpful for him.

Dead Star or anyone else:

What is the status of the AIS doping inquiry?

Has it been effectively buried and forgotten---or is still on-going?

When your two best products (4 world championships) are revealed to be doping at young ages it begs the question:

How many other AIS scholars are drug addicts?

100%, 50% or only just Shane & Mark?

Evidence, whistleblowers, zealous housekeepers or not---it has been confirmed twice in 2004, that AIS members do use illegal drugs.

Dead Star said:

I read that Jobie Dajka article on CN with interest....

Flyer said:

Dead Star or anyone else:

What is the status of the AIS doping inquiry? <snip>

Keep your shirt on, Flyer.

It has been alleged that Jobie Dajka assaulted the head AIS High Performance Cycling coach, Martin Barass. Dajka is no longer associated with the AIS (since 2004).

There will be a local CAS enquiry resulting from this allegation. Not a doping enquiry. Dajka has been informed he may be looking at a 4 year ban if the allegations are proven.

Suppose you will call it 'roid rage 🙂

VeloFlash said:

Suppose you will call it 'roid rage 🙂

Geesh, either that or someone with some severe emotional development issues!
http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/8203.0.html

Yet another terrific example of why Marco Pantani was NOT alone with his distructive behavior.

Frank Vandenbroucke, Thierry Claveyrolat, Graeme Obree, Jose Maria Jeminez, Johan Van Der Velde and an Australian Sprinter.

Is this the fate that awaits Mark French (19) and Shane Perkins (17)?

Can steroids cause this?

Can suicide, or cocaine use follow too?

wilmar13 said:

Geesh, either that or someone with some severe emotional development issues!
velonews.com8203.0.htmlOpen ↗

Flyer said:

...Obviously, whatever AIS has been doing is leading to doping...

Without providing proof of a link, this is a Post Hoc logical fallacy (Because one thing follows another, it is held to cause the other) - All heroin addicts consumed milk as children, therefore consumption of milk causes heroin addiction.

If your example allows for the fact the the dairy cows were probably juiced with Growth Hormones and antibiotics, you may have a valid connection there despite your skeptism.

Doping does influence pituitary and adrenal function, sometimes adversely.

The link between athletes' bad behavior is a lot easier to understand when you consider weekly supplementation of testosterone, hGH, Nandrolone, clomid, and stimulants.

But I agree with you, if your cows, sheep, and cattle are on steroids----perhaps health trouble will move down the food chain. It is yet another link, one step removed from the one I saw.

Your fallacy might just be 100% true!

Great post!

[quote="EoinC"]Without providing proof of a link, this is a Post Hoc logical fallacy (Because one thing follows another, it is held to cause the other) - All heroin addicts consumed milk as children, therefore consumption of milk causes heroin addiction.

Flyer said:

...Your fallacy might just be 100% true!...

The claim of a Post Hoc fallacy is because you have argued that, because 2 members of AIS have been shown to have taken Dope...

Flyer said:

...Obviously, whatever AIS has been doing is leading to doping...

There is nothing in what you have presented that shows that the AIS led the members to partake in doping. This does not mean that your assertions are untrue, only that you have not proven the connection. The fallacy remains intact until it is proven that the AIS played an active role in this.