Audax bike advice please

"AndyM" <[email hidden]>typed

Quoted message said:

As Spring is approaching and an Audax/Randonneur group has started
fairly near to me (100kms), I would like some advice please. I want to
do a 200kms course, that has a fair amount of climbing in it, would my
mountain bike (it has narrow tyres) be suitable or would a road bike be
better?
I used to ride with a friend who had a road bike and my legs had to go
round at a fair pace to keep up. A round trip of 160kms or so up into
the mountains near Tokyo used to take us about 7-8 hours with breaks,
is this a reasonable pace for a 200kms Audax on a slightly hillier
course (Nikko area if anyone knows it).
Sorry for the long windedness.

Quoted message said:

AndyM

Comfort and reliability are what's needed for an Audax bike, as well as
mudguards on rides that mandate them.

Ride on whatever you're comfortable. Attend to any minor discomfort
before it becomes a major pain.

Your speed will be dictated much more by strength and stamina than by machine.

A good wide spread of gears is useful if your routes are hilly.

Try different machines out over shorter distances and try to find out
what's efficient and comfortable. These decisions are too variable and
personal to be specific.

I have done Audax type rides on:

An Audax bike
A light touring bike
A Brompton
A mountain bike (Knobbly tyres, 'dead' feeling frame, no suspension,
combination NOT recommended)
A hybrid bike (no mudguards but otherwise no trouble)
A Cheltenham Pedersen

--
Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
Edgware.

in message <[email hidden]>,

AndyM (') said:

As Spring is approaching and an Audax/Randonneur group has started
fairly near to me (100kms), I would like some advice please. I want to
do a 200kms course, that has a fair amount of climbing in it, would my
mountain bike (it has narrow tyres) be suitable or would a road bike
be better?

A road bike would be better. More hand positions means you can move your
hands about more - one of the problems with being on the bike a long
time is stress on the hands and wrists, and being able to move your
hands is a good thing. Also, when battling into a headwind, being able
to get into an aerodynamic tuck is a good thing.

What are sold as 'audax bikes' are compromises between road bikes and
tourers. These are great general purpose bikes for general leisure use
but they're not the compromise I prefer. You don't actually carry much
luggage on an audax. You don't need more than a barbag. And the lighter
and faster the bike, the less work you have to do. So I've taken a bike
which was designed as a time-trial bike, fitted a bar bag and a
slightly wider range cassette (53-39 double front, 13-26 ten-speed
rear). I've done 4 100Km+ rides on this bike in the last three months
and it's been very comfortable. It now weighs, ready to roll, just a
touch under 20lbs.

This is a fairly hilly area and two of those rides will have exceeded
1000 metres of ascent. If your area is very hilly a triple might be a
good idea, but I don't feel I need one.

Quoted message said:

I used to ride with a friend who had a road bike and my legs had to go
round at a fair pace to keep up. A round trip of 160kms or so up into
the mountains near Tokyo used to take us about 7-8 hours with breaks,
is this a reasonable pace for a 200kms Audax on a slightly hillier
course (Nikko area if anyone knows it).

I don't, but I envy you. I'd really like to see rural Japan - I've only
seen the cities.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

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Simon Brooke <[email hidden]>typed

Quoted message said:

What are sold as 'audax bikes' are compromises between road bikes and
tourers. These are great general purpose bikes for general leisure use
but they're not the compromise I prefer. You don't actually carry much
luggage on an audax. You don't need more than a barbag.

You might not need more on a 100km ride.

You probably will should you undertake longer rides. 600km entails a
night on the road and you may need extra clobber for night riding, food
for eating between controls etc. (Tooth cleaning and fresh shorts aren't
a great luxury either!)

Tools and spares are also a consideration.

--
Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
Edgware.

Thank you Helen and Simon for your helpful replies!! My bike is
reasonably comfortable but... towards the end of 100kms+ my bum/lower
back was starting to hurt, so that proabably means a new saddle and
some adjustments. A Brooks seems likely though which I haven't a clue,
any thoughts?
The Audaxes that they are doing here all are 200kms and above, I had
therefore thought of a Carradice saddlebag or SQR thingy.
A concern for me is gearing, not for the climbing - the current set up
is fine for that, but, for the flat bits as going at 30+km/h gets a bit
tiring after about 30mins, 25km/h is comfortable and is my average on
most rides, but I do like going faster!! Mmmm....does sound like a road
bike of some description would fit the bill!!
Well Simon if you do get the remotest chance to come to Japan you are
more than welcome to visit. I live about 200kms east of Tokyo in a
fairly rural are that is somewhat like the Lake District/Lowland
Scotland but with higher mountains (1400m+) and more trees. Skiing and
snowboarding are 20-30mins away, a large lake (3rd largest in Japan)
for windsurfing, sailing and fishing about an hour away and the Pacific
about 2 hours drive. My old workplace (www.british-hills.co.jp) is also
within 30 mins and has a pretty reasonable facscimile pub with Bass on
draught (hand pump) and serves excellent fish and chips :-)
Cycling is quite fun too, especially as most, not all :-( motorists are
pretty good, though they are consistently incapable of judging speed
:-( but I'm used to that.
All I want now is for the snow and ice to melt ... just a few more
weeks:-)!

AndyM

in message <[email hidden]>,

AndyM (') said:

Thank you Helen and Simon for your helpful replies!! My bike is
reasonably comfortable but... towards the end of 100kms+ my bum/lower
back was starting to hurt, so that proabably means a new saddle and
some adjustments. A Brooks seems likely though which I haven't a clue,
any thoughts?

Depends on your bum. Personally I have long been a fan of Brooks saddles
because I personally find the 'Professional' model fits me perfectly,
but it depends mainly on the shape of your pelvis and people differ.
Measure the distance between the bony knobs on the back of your pelvis,
and find a saddle that wide.

*However*, I've just switched from a Brooks to a Selle Italia SLR on my
long-distance bike. It's over 500g lighter. On last weekend's 120Km
ride it was fine _for_ _me_, and losing 8% of the total weight of the
bike seemed worthwhile.

Quoted message said:

The Audaxes that they are doing here all are 200kms and above, I had
therefore thought of a Carradice saddlebag or SQR thingy.
A concern for me is gearing, not for the climbing - the current set up
is fine for that, but, for the flat bits as going at 30+km/h gets a
bit tiring after about 30mins, 25km/h is comfortable and is my average
on most rides, but I do like going faster!! Mmmm....does sound like a
road bike of some description would fit the bill!!

My setup is good for a pedalled 65Km/h on suitable downhills, and I can
cruise at 28Km/h on the flat in calm conditions. Having said that, in
my experience, a long ride without a wind problem somewhere is a rare
thing, and you always have to earn those downhills.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Morning had broken, and we had run out of gas for the welding torch.

AndyM said:

A Brooks seems likely though which I haven't a clue,
any thoughts?

I have a B17, which suits me perfectly - it's relatively wide compared
to some of the sleeker "racing" models. But as others will tell you,
saddles are a very personal issue - you need to try different ones to
see which suits you best.

Quoted message said:

The Audaxes that they are doing here all are 200kms and above, I had
therefore thought of a Carradice saddlebag or SQR thingy.

I agree with Helen - a small-ish saddlebag or bar bag would be fine for
up to 200km, but the longer the ride, the more you need to take with
you. It might be worth considering fitting a rack for the extra luggage
capacity.

Quoted message said:

A concern for me is gearing, not for the climbing - the current set

up

Quoted message said:

is fine for that, but, for the flat bits as going at 30+km/h gets a

bit

Quoted message said:

tiring after about 30mins

What sort of cadence are you pedalling in top gear to maintain that
speed? If it's much higher than 100rpm then I'd say yes, your gearing
probably needs to be higher.

But there are other factors to consider, too, such as the fact that you
are sitting upright on the bike, and don't have the more aerodynamic
position of drop handlebars, which means you have to work harder to
overcome wind resistance. Also think about tyres - for riding on roads
at those kinds of speeds, you need narrow, high-pressure tyres to
minimise rolling resistance.

As Simon says, these are the kind of features you would expect to find
on a "proper" audax/fast touring bike.

Quoted message said:

though they are consistently incapable of judging speed

Some things are the same the world over...

d.

Simon Brooke said:

My setup is good for a pedalled 65Km/h on suitable downhills

On last year's Invicta Grimpeur I recorded a shade under 50mph on one
of the downhill stretches, pedalling a 52*11 top gear.

However, for an Audax type event (ie not a race) there is no need to be
putting in that kind of effort on the downhills (I paid for it later on
in the ride).

Accordingly, I have just changed the cassette for one with a 14-tooth
smallest sprocket[1] and in future hilly rides (eg this year's Invicta
Grimpeur, which is in a couple of weeks) I intend to use downhill
stretches for a spot of well-earned coasting.

Quoted message said:

and you always have to earn those downhills.

Downhills are certainly thrilling, but there is something deeply
satisfying and inwardly rewarding about a good climb. Therein lies the
appeal of hilly rides.

d.

1. I swapped an 8-speed 11-28 cassette for a 9-speed 14-25, while
swapping the double 52-42 chainset for a triple 52-42-30, giving a
lower top gear in return for a much more useful lower bottom gear, and
a larger number of closer-spaced gears overall. To my mind, this ought
to be a near-enough ideal gearing set-up for Audaxing.

davek <[email hidden]> wrote:

: 1. I swapped an 8-speed 11-28 cassette for a 9-speed 14-25, while
: swapping the double 52-42 chainset for a triple 52-42-30, giving a
: lower top gear in return for a much more useful lower bottom gear, and
: a larger number of closer-spaced gears overall. To my mind, this ought
: to be a near-enough ideal gearing set-up for Audaxing.

That's a nice setup for Audaxing. I run a compact double so have
34x25 bottom gear and a 48x12 top gear so my gearing is a little
higher all round.

You are quite right that 52x11 is a stupid gear for Audaxing. Most
racers don't need a 11 (or even a 12 a lot of the time)

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness

AndyM <[email hidden]> wrote:
: (Nikko area if anyone knows it).

I was there at Christmas. A very beautiful part of the world. I didn't
have a bike with me but it looked like there was some good riding
around

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness

Arthur Clune said:

davek <[email hidden]> wrote:

: 1. I swapped an 8-speed 11-28 cassette for a 9-speed 14-25, while
: swapping the double 52-42 chainset for a triple 52-42-30, giving a
: lower top gear in return for a much more useful lower bottom gear, and
: a larger number of closer-spaced gears overall. To my mind, this ought
: to be a near-enough ideal gearing set-up for Audaxing.

That's a nice setup for Audaxing. I run a compact double so have
34x25 bottom gear and a 48x12 top gear so my gearing is a little
higher all round.

You are quite right that 52x11 is a stupid gear for Audaxing. Most
racers don't need a 11 (or even a 12 a lot of the time)

That's why I have just taken the plunge and ordered a shiny new compact
double crankset.. I don't even get above 52x15 on descents so figured that
48x12 would be more than high enough, and 34x26 would give me the extra
couple of gears I needed this weekend.

OK, it's not shiny, it is black, crank and chainrings, and is the right
length for me. This means I will have an old Ultegra double, 165mm crank
length and newish BB (only a few hundred miles on it) of the right length up
for sale soon.

...d

Wow! If that was Nikko and the Toshogu shrine I'm about an hour away by
car. As yet I have to cycle there, but will go there in a few weeks
once the snow melts enough. Must get into training!!
Sadly due to one thing and another I've become a bit of a lardarse over
the past months, so a saddle will have to be generously sized ;-( I
really like the look of the Brooks Swift but a B17 or similar is more
likely.
As to cadence I seem naturally(?) to pedal at around 85, with 100 or so
to trundle down a mountain road and try to reach 60+kph, done it too,
but I think my computer is a bit out as I changed to 1.5 slicks.

Thank you all for your kind, helpful advice as well as the
inspirational ride reports! I'll post a report when I do the ride.

AndyM

Arthur Clune said:

You are quite right that 52x11 is a stupid gear for Audaxing. Most
racers don't need a 11 (or even a 12 a lot of the time)

It's proven pretty pointless on the Streetmachine, certainly, and when
it comes to wearing out the current gear block and chainwheels it won't
have that on again.
Though it's not the nippiest bike in general it /does/ go fast
downhills, but I've never yet been able to spin it out and I have
certainly tried quite hard on some quite big hills. Unless you have a
long, steep, sustained hill with open sightlines your chances of
spinning out are, at best, rather low judging from my experience.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

Unless you have a
long, steep, sustained hill with open sightlines your chances of
spinning out are, at best, rather low judging from my experience.

Absolutely - the hill mentioned previously was a dead straight piece of
decent tarmac with a fairly steep gradient. Not long enough, though
(less than 1km), so I ran out of road before I could run out of
pedalling - however, I've worked it out[1] that I must have peaked at
about 130rpm, which I couldn't have sustained for more than a few
seconds anyway.

d.

1. see http://www.arachnoid.com/bike/

Peter Clinch said:

Arthur Clune said:

You are quite right that 52x11 is a stupid gear for Audaxing. Most
racers don't need a 11 (or even a 12 a lot of the time)

It's proven pretty pointless on the Streetmachine, certainly, and

when

Quoted message said:

it comes to wearing out the current gear block and chainwheels it

won't

Quoted message said:

have that on again.

I think those enormous gears are pointless for nearly all riders and
nearly all purposes actually. The only chance most of us will get to
use them is on long steep descents. At some speed, which for me seems
to be about 35 mph, pedalling on a steep descent becomes futile. The
extra drag caused by the pedalling requires more power to overcome than
the pedalling provides. You will go faster by putting the hands
together at the centre of the bars, keeping the elbows in, flattening
the body against the top tube and keeping the feet at quarter to three
with the knees tucked right in.

--
Dave...

dkahn400 said:

I think those enormous gears are pointless for nearly all riders and
nearly all purposes actually. The only chance most of us will get to
use them is on long steep descents. At some speed, which for me seems
to be about 35 mph, pedalling on a steep descent becomes futile. The
extra drag caused by the pedalling requires more power to overcome than
the pedalling provides.

Ah, but I'm cheating and using a 'bent. Not the world's sportiest, by
any stretch, and I find that a pal on a racer in an /extreme/ aero tuck
will freewheel a little faster, but then I can just take the [censored] by
pedalling in my normal riding posture and pull away. But even so, the
52 x 11 top gear is just too big, and that's on a 26" rather than 700c
as well.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

dkahn400 said:

Peter Clinch said:

Arthur Clune said:

You are quite right that 52x11 is a stupid gear for Audaxing. Most
racers don't need a 11 (or even a 12 a lot of the time)

It's proven pretty pointless on the Streetmachine, certainly, and
when it comes to wearing out the current gear block and chainwheels
it won't have that on again.

I think those enormous gears are pointless for nearly all riders and
nearly all purposes actually. The only chance most of us will get to
use them is on long steep descents. At some speed, which for me seems
to be about 35 mph, pedalling on a steep descent becomes futile. The
extra drag caused by the pedalling requires more power to overcome
than the pedalling provides. You will go faster by putting the hands
together at the centre of the bars, keeping the elbows in, flattening
the body against the top tube and keeping the feet at quarter to three
with the knees tucked right in.

I frequently spin out the 52/11 on my preferred Audax mount, but given that
this is only 86" it's rather easier than for most people round here... I
don't think I've pedalled it at more than about 55 km/h, which corresponds
to about 135 rpm.

--

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
World Domination?
Just find a world that's into that kind of thing, then chain to the
floor and walk up and down on it in high heels. (Mr. Sunshine)

AndyM <[email hidden]> wrote:
: Wow! If that was Nikko and the Toshogu shrine I'm about an hour away by
: car.

That's the one. A very, very lovely place. It was also ideal visiting
it over Christmas since it was nice and quiet. Apparently it gets
very busy in summer which would rather spoil the atmosphere.

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness

Dave Larrington said:

I frequently spin out the 52/11 on my preferred Audax mount, but given that
this is only 86" it's rather easier than for most people round here... I
don't think I've pedalled it at more than about 55 km/h, which corresponds
to about 135 rpm.

I spun out on the fixer while descending (72" gear) with an estimated
rpm of 160. I don't think that I can manage that without the aid of the
rear wheel dragging my legs around.

Jon

Jon Senior said:

I spun out on the fixer while descending (72" gear) with an estimated
rpm of 160. I don't think that I can manage that without the aid of
the rear wheel dragging my legs around.

Vmax on my fixer so far has corresponded to about 140 rpm, but I've hit
higher than that in 50 m drag races, including pulling a foot out of the
pedal at 165 rpm... How that one didn't result in a smashed shin is a
mystery worthy of the attention of someone who specialises in mysteries.

--

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
World Domination?
Just find a world that's into that kind of thing, then chain to the
floor and walk up and down on it in high heels. (Mr. Sunshine)