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Athletes and PEDs

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01 / Original postAthletes and PEDsJet · 12 Jun 2005 02 / This pagePosts 1–16Page 1 of 1 · chronological order 03 / Latest replyPost #16Email address hidden · 16 Jun 2005

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Road Cycling
Published
12 June 2005
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16 June 2005
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Jet
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  1. Original post
    Jet
    Archived post
    #1

    Interesting roundtable on Comcast Net Sports (CSNDC) last night.
    ----------
    Sports and Steroids: Performance Enhancing Drugs in School
    Comcast SportsNet Mid-Atlantic Jun 11 09:00pm
    Special/Sports, 60 Mins.
    Middle- and high-school student athletes and coaches participate in a town
    hall meeting on the dangers of using steroids.

    Original Airdate: June 2, 2005.
    ---------

    One of the panelists asked a former top level athlete (paraphrasing):

    'If a multi-million dollar earning athlete wants to take steroids,
    can he acquire steroids (or PEDs (Performance Enhancing Drugs)) and stay
    ahead of the testing curve?'

    Without hesitation, the former athlete (who -obviously- had taken high-dose
    steroids, and was still taking them) said emphatically: 'Oh, yes'.

    He went on to say how this was 'big business' and that top athletes in pro
    sports are earning multi year contracts in excess of $150million USD. Uh,
    he didn't explain -how- they stayed ahead of the curve.

    I've got a rather long discussion of the various ways they might beat the
    testing. I could summarize later, or post it if anyone is interested.

    Just one comment and that's to say there are many ways to 'test clean'. As
    most know it's reported that pro-cyclists have their samples frozen and
    stored and LA has said that he knows this and knows that at anytime in the
    future they can thaw his sample and retest it with any new technologies, or
    (implying) for any drugs not yet made public. He doesn't seem worried.

    If you presume the top ten riders in every race have their samples stored,
    and there are quite a lot of races each season, it rapidly becomes an
    escalating problem to store all of these samples. Who knows how long they
    store them - but presumably it's 5 years. Heh, I doubt if anyone throws
    away LA's samples, but according to lab protocol the samples do not have
    athlete's names on them, so the guy cleaning out the fridge wouldn't know
    which ones to save, lol.

    jj

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  2. Ewoud Dronkert
    Archived post
    #2
    John Forrest Tomlinson said:
    Quoted message said:

    If you presume the top ten riders in every race

    Big assumption.

    More like: all winners of HC races, not even stage winners of 2.HC races
    I think.

    --
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    Thunderbird E-mail and Newsgroups - http://gettbird.com/

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  3. John Forrest Tomlinson
    Archived post
    #3
    Jet said:

    If you presume the top ten riders in every race

    Big assumption.

    JT

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  4. Jet
    Archived post
    #4
    Ewoud Dronkert said:
    John Forrest Tomlinson said:
    Quoted message said:

    If you presume the top ten riders in every race

    Big assumption.

    More like: all winners of HC races, not even stage winners of 2.HC races
    I think.

    Thanks ED.

    The show is repeated today on Comcast at 5pm EDT:
    -------------------
    Sports and Steroids: Performance Enhancing Drugs in School
    Comcast SportsNet Mid-Atlantic Jun 12 05:00pm
    Special/Sports, 60 Mins.
    Middle- and high-school student athletes and coaches participate in a town
    hall meeting on the dangers of using steroids.
    -------------------

    It's kind of boring, but a few comments are of interest. Hopefully I didn't
    mangle the recounting too badly - I was only half-listening, but perked up
    when I hear the former pro-athlete (football?) commenting..

    jj

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  5. Ewoud Dronkert
    Archived post
    #5
    Jet said:
    Quoted message said:

    More like: all winners of HC races, not even stage winners
    of 2.HC races I think.

    Thanks ED.

    Well, thanks for nothing, it was just my guess.

    --
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    Thunderbird E-mail and Newsgroups - http://gettbird.com/

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  6. Jet
    Archived post
    #6
    Ewoud Dronkert said:
    Jet said:
    Quoted message said:

    More like: all winners of HC races, not even stage winners
    of 2.HC races I think.

    Thanks ED.

    Well, thanks for nothing, it was just my guess.

    A wink is as good as a nod to a myopic equus.

    jj

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  7. amit
    Archived post
    #7
    Jet said:

    He went on to say how this was 'big business' and that top athletes in pro
    sports are earning multi year contracts in excess of $150million USD. Uh,
    he didn't explain -how- they stayed ahead of the curve.

    in the BALCO case the track athletes (who underwent testing) stayed
    ahead of the curve by using THG (the designer steroid). Since it didn't
    exist it could not have been banned specifically by name. They also
    used HGH (undetectable) and testosterone ("the cream", possible to use
    without setting of the alarm).

    The baseball players could take anything since they weren't being
    tested.

    Report
  8. Jet
    Archived post
    #8
    amit said:
    Jet said:

    He went on to say how this was 'big business' and that top athletes in pro
    sports are earning multi year contracts in excess of $150million USD. Uh,
    he didn't explain -how- they stayed ahead of the curve.

    in the BALCO case the track athletes (who underwent testing) stayed
    ahead of the curve by using THG (the designer steroid). Since it didn't
    exist it could not have been banned specifically by name.

    Check.

    Quoted message said:

    They also used HGH (undetectable) and

    Some tell-tale signs - abdominals take on a bloated look in some people
    (intestines/connective tissue swells).

    Quoted message said:

    testosterone ("the cream", possible to use without setting of the alarm).

    Androgel. Have you heard any insider chit-chat on how effective it is? I've
    heard of hematocrits being raised 6 points in six weeks on it.

    Quoted message said:

    The baseball players could take anything since they weren't being
    tested.

    Clomid for endurance athletes? I found a link that suggested it helped to
    repair muscle damaged by long distance events, such as cycling. It is on
    the WADA list, iirc. Not sure of detection methods or limits.

    Oh well fun (or annoying, depending on your POV) to speculate. ;-)

    jj

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  9. Email address hidden
    Archived post
    #9
    Jet said:

    On 12 Jun 2005 08:55:35 -0700, "amit" <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    in the BALCO case the track athletes (who underwent testing) stayed
    ahead of the curve by using THG (the designer steroid). Since it didn't
    exist it could not have been banned specifically by name.


    Check.

    actually the entire class of steroids is banned. otherwise some
    enterprising chemist could just synthesize a new drug with a
    trivial structural difference to get around any list of names.

    What was unusual about THG is that it was designed to be unstable
    so that it disintegrated during gas chromatography, and became
    undetectable. There must have been a good or at least decent
    chemist behind it. I don't know if the BALCO investigation has
    fingered a chemist yet, but it sure wasn't Victor Conte doing the
    lab work.

    <http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=0005AF2D-C69A-1FFD-869A83414B7F0000>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    testosterone ("the cream", possible to use without setting of the alarm).

    Androgel. Have you heard any insider chit-chat on how effective it is? I've
    heard of hematocrits being raised 6 points in six weeks on it.

    Quoted message said:

    From whom, Androgel salesmen? I don't think testosterone or steroids


    or any similar drugs raise hematocrit - that is EPO's job, or orange
    juice's. What these allegedly do is enable better recovery so more
    benefit from traiining, and harder training is doable. So performance
    is improved at the same HCT. Kind of like what regular old honest
    training does, only more so.

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  10. Jet
    Archived post
    #10
    email hidden said:
    Jet said:

    On 12 Jun 2005 08:55:35 -0700, "amit" <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    in the BALCO case the track athletes (who underwent testing) stayed
    ahead of the curve by using THG (the designer steroid). Since it didn't
    exist it could not have been banned specifically by name.


    Check.

    actually the entire class of steroids is banned. otherwise some
    enterprising chemist could just synthesize a new drug with a
    trivial structural difference to get around any list of names.

    What was unusual about THG is that it was designed to be unstable
    so that it disintegrated during gas chromatography, and became
    undetectable. There must have been a good or at least decent
    chemist behind it. I don't know if the BALCO investigation has
    fingered a chemist yet, but it sure wasn't Victor Conte doing the
    lab work.

    <http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=0005AF2D-C69A-1FFD-869A83414B7F0000>

    I thought it was well known who did it. They just haven't been able to
    prove it.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    testosterone ("the cream", possible to use without setting of the alarm).

    Androgel. Have you heard any insider chit-chat on how effective it is? I've
    heard of hematocrits being raised 6 points in six weeks on it.

    Quoted message said:

    From whom, Androgel salesmen? I don't think testosterone or steroids or any
    similar drugs raise hematocrit - that is EPO's job, or orange juice's.

    Well Androgel does claim this on their website. Since this is a
    prescription drug they can't make claims and give testimony that isn't true
    - they are regulated by the FDA.

    Quoted message said:

    What these allegedly do is enable better recovery so more
    benefit from traiining, and harder training is doable. So performance
    is improved at the same HCT. Kind of like what regular old honest
    training does, only more so.

    OK.

    jj

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  11. Robert Chung
    Archived post
    #11
    Quoted message said:


    oherwise some
    enterprising chemist could just synthesize a new drug with a
    trivial structural difference to get around any list of names.

    Like Nexium? http://www.newyorker.com/critics/atlarge/?041025crat_atlarge

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  12. JB
    Archived post
    #12
    email hidden said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    testosterone ("the cream", possible to use without setting of the alarm).

    Androgel. Have you heard any insider chit-chat on how effective it is? I've
    heard of hematocrits being raised 6 points in six weeks on it.

    Quoted message said:

    From whom, Androgel salesmen? I don't think testosterone or steroids


    or any similar drugs raise hematocrit - that is EPO's job, or orange
    juice's. What these allegedly do is enable better recovery so more
    benefit from traiining, and harder training is doable. So performance
    is improved at the same HCT. Kind of like what regular old honest
    training does, only more so.

    I can post some results of hematocrit changes over the last three months,
    including the changes to my informal ITT. I'm a 50-something recreational
    cyclist with a prescription for Androgel.

    If anyone is interested, that is. 🙂

    Report
  13. Donald Munro
    Archived post
    #13
    JB said:

    I can post some results of hematocrit changes over the last three months,
    including the changes to my informal ITT. I'm a 50-something recreational
    cyclist with a prescription for Androgel.

    If anyone is interested, that is. 🙂

    I don't suppose you know any vets who would prescribe it (for my dog) ?

    Report
  14. JB
    Archived post
    #14

    On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:32:30 +0200, Donald Munro <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    JB said:

    I can post some results of hematocrit changes over the last three months,
    including the changes to my informal ITT. I'm a 50-something recreational
    cyclist with a prescription for Androgel.

    If anyone is interested, that is. 🙂

    I don't suppose you know any vets who would prescribe it (for my dog) ?

    How old are you. (seriously)

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  15. Email address hidden
    Archived post
    #15
    JB said:

    I can post some results of hematocrit changes over the last three months,
    including the changes to my informal ITT. I'm a 50-something recreational
    cyclist with a prescription for Androgel.

    If anyone is interested, that is. 🙂

    I'd be interested to see that. Also, are you on 5g, 7.5g, or 10g does?

    Best,

    Jim

    Report
  16. Email address hidden
    Archived post
    #16
    Jet said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    From whom, Androgel salesmen? I don't think testosterone or steroids or any
    similar drugs raise hematocrit - that is EPO's job, or orange juice's.

    Well Androgel does claim this on their website. Since this is a
    prescription drug they can't make claims and give testimony that isn't true
    - they are regulated by the FDA.

    You would think so. On the other hand, they are a drug company.
    On further investigation, I did find some articles on PubMed which
    say that testosterone replacement therapy in hypogonodal men brings
    hematocrit up from mildly anemic to a normal level. HCT level
    plateaued after an initial rise. And erythrocytosis (too many RBCs) is
    apparently an occasional side effect which requires discontinuing the
    hormone replacement treatment. So the therapeutic claim is supported,
    though I don't know how efficiently it would increase HCT in someone
    who already has normal levels.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15126525&query_hl=2
    http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/89/5/2085
    http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/8/2670

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