ASLs and cycle lanes

"John Hearns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I recall reading on this group about the rules for Advance Stop Lines.
Am I right in saying that the rules say that cyclists must enter
an ASL using a cycle lane only?

A bicycle is a fully signed up road user and can therefore, subject to
specific restrictions and privileges, use the road in any sensible manner.

I see no reason why one should not cycle straight up the middle of any of
the traffic lanes (including but not limited to any pink or green painted
guttering) and enter the ASL anywhere you wish.

After all car drivers do it all the time 🙂

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I recall reading on this group about the rules for Advance Stop Lines.
Am I right in saying that the rules say that cyclists must enter
an ASL using a cycle lane only?
That lane will usually be on the left.

The point of my post is that we were discussing the new measures on
Trafalgar Road in Greenwich last night.
There are several stretches of short (20 - 30 feet long) narrow cycle
lanes on the pavement. These are not just painted - they are tarmacced
and have dropped kerbs.
I haven't paid them much attention as I cycle along the road.
The scales fell from my eyes last night as I realised they are all
associated with ASLs.
Am I right in thinking that the road lanes are somehow too narrow,
and the highway engineers have put the cycle lanes on the pavement to
comply with some standards?

Anyone else seen this scheme, and like to comment?

As I understand it, the ASL is a bit of a loophole. All road users must
stop at the first stop line, but by putting a cycle lane into it,
cyclists may pass the first stop line, and stop at the second.

I would assume that in a completely legal view, you should enter wby the
cycle lane, but that is more likely to result in injury. I tend to enter
from the right hand side of any lanes that are turning left to ensure
that if traffic begins moving before I make it through, I don't get
turned in to.

Jon

"Tony W" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"John Hearns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I recall reading on this group about the rules for Advance Stop Lines.
Am I right in saying that the rules say that cyclists must enter
an ASL using a cycle lane only?

John is right. The SI requires all traffic to stop at the first line,
except cycles that can pass the first stop line only by means of the cycle
lane entering the ASL 'box'.

Quoted message said:

A bicycle is a fully signed up road user and can therefore, subject to
specific restrictions and privileges, use the road in any sensible manner.

Yes, and the regulations governing stop lines are quite specific.

Quoted message said:

I see no reason why one should not cycle straight up the middle of any of
the traffic lanes (including but not limited to any pink or green painted
guttering) and enter the ASL anywhere you wish.

Except that you don't know the rules.

Quoted message said:

After all car drivers do it all the time 🙂

There are specific circumstances in which car drivers are permitted to do
it. If the lights turn red after they cross the first stop line but before
they reach the second, they have to stop before the second stop line. This
means that in nose-to-tail traffic motor vehicles can be quite legitimately
stopped within the box created by the ASL.

Rich

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

John is right. The SI requires all traffic to stop at the first line,
except cycles that can pass the first stop line only by means of the cycle
lane entering the ASL 'box'.

SI?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I see no reason why one should not cycle straight up the middle of any of
the traffic lanes (including but not limited to any pink or green painted
guttering) and enter the ASL anywhere you wish.

Except that you don't know the rules.

Illegal? Yes. Safer? Yes. Unless the entry point is between lanes on a
road, there is the very good chance of the lights changing partway
through your approach and a car turning left across you. This is a Bad
Thing (TM).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

After all car drivers do it all the time 🙂

There are specific circumstances in which car drivers are permitted to do
it. If the lights turn red after they cross the first stop line but before
they reach the second, they have to stop before the second stop line. This
means that in nose-to-tail traffic motor vehicles can be quite legitimately
stopped within the box created by the ASL.

I suspect Tony was referring more to the car drivers who persist in
stopping in the box regardless of circumstances. I had a wonderful
conversation with a taxi driver who did this. His reasoning; "There
aren't any cyclists in it".

Jon

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

and if there is no cycle lane?

Then you can't enter it!

Jon

"John Hearns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I recall reading on this group about the rules for Advance Stop Lines.
Am I right in saying that the rules say that cyclists must enter
an ASL using a cycle lane only?

and if there is no cycle lane?

Jon Senior said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I recall reading on this group about the rules for Advance Stop Lines.
Am I right in saying that the rules say that cyclists must enter
an ASL using a cycle lane only?
That lane will usually be on the left.

The point of my post is that we were discussing the new measures on
Trafalgar Road in Greenwich last night.
There are several stretches of short (20 - 30 feet long) narrow cycle
lanes on the pavement. These are not just painted - they are tarmacced
and have dropped kerbs.
I haven't paid them much attention as I cycle along the road.
The scales fell from my eyes last night as I realised they are all
associated with ASLs.
Am I right in thinking that the road lanes are somehow too narrow,
and the highway engineers have put the cycle lanes on the pavement to
comply with some standards?

Anyone else seen this scheme, and like to comment?

As I understand it, the ASL is a bit of a loophole. All road users must
stop at the first stop line, but by putting a cycle lane into it,
cyclists may pass the first stop line, and stop at the second.

I would assume that in a completely legal view, you should enter wby the
cycle lane,

I know of some 2-lane ASL's where there is a filter lane on the left only.
If this was true, you would sometimes have to cross the left lane to reach
the cycle-lane, then turn 90 degrees to cycle to the right-hand side of
the ASL again.

Quoted message said:

but that is more likely to result in injury. I tend to enter
from the right hand side of any lanes that are turning left to ensure
that if traffic begins moving before I make it through, I don't get
turned in to.

Sounds sensible to me.

AC

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I know of some 2-lane ASL's where there is a filter lane on the left only.
If this was true, you would sometimes have to cross the left lane to reach
the cycle-lane, then turn 90 degrees to cycle to the right-hand side of
the ASL again.

All the ASLs on Leith Walk look like this. If you follow the rules then
you should filter up the left. I tend to filter up whichever side is
safest at the time, but would advise anyone to filter right in
preference to left. Having come very close to becoming a smear on the
side of a bus once, I decided that this was not the best way to
approach.

Jon

in message <[email hidden]>, Jon Senior

('jon@restlesslemon_DOT_co_DOT_uk.remove') said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

John is right. The SI requires all traffic to stop at the first
line, except cycles that can pass the first stop line only by means
of the cycle lane entering the ASL 'box'.

SI?

Statutary Instrument, at a guess.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; It appears that /dev/null is a conforming XSL processor.

Adrian Boliston said:

"John Hearns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I recall reading on this group about the rules for Advance Stop Lines.
Am I right in saying that the rules say that cyclists must enter
an ASL using a cycle lane only?

and if there is no cycle lane?

That was my point.
I suspect that the road engineers had to somehow put in cycle lanes.
The lanes on the road were too narrow - so they hopped them onto
the pavement.
Just seeking other people's opinion on this one.

Richard Goodman said:

John is right. The SI requires all traffic to stop at the first line,
except cycles that can pass the first stop line only by means of the
cycle lane entering the ASL 'box'.

So where there's an ASL but no cycle lane (several cases thereof on my
commute) I can't legally use the ASL?

(retires, shaking head in puzzlement)

--

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
===========================================================

"John Hearns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

That was my point.
I suspect that the road engineers had to somehow put in cycle lanes.
The lanes on the road were too narrow - so they hopped them onto
the pavement.
Just seeking other people's opinion on this one.

So they want cyclists to hop off the pavement onto the main carriageway??!!

I imagine that if the lights change just at this point you could end up with a
squashed cyclist.

in message <[email hidden]>, Dave Larrington

(') said:

Richard Goodman said:

John is right. The SI requires all traffic to stop at the first
line, except cycles that can pass the first stop line only by means
of the cycle lane entering the ASL 'box'.

So where there's an ASL but no cycle lane (several cases thereof on my
commute) I can't legally use the ASL?

(retires, shaking head in puzzlement)

The law, as is well known, is an ass.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

See one nuclear war, you've seen them all.

In message <[email hidden]>, John Hearns
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Adrian Boliston said:

"John Hearns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I recall reading on this group about the rules for Advance Stop Lines.
Am I right in saying that the rules say that cyclists must enter
an ASL using a cycle lane only?

and if there is no cycle lane?

That was my point.
I suspect that the road engineers had to somehow put in cycle lanes.
The lanes on the road were too narrow - so they hopped them onto
the pavement.
Just seeking other people's opinion on this one.

I think you are probably right.

A number of ASL's have sprung up around Leeds as various junctions have
been 'improved'. Where there is not already a cycle lane , then there is
a very short section of cycle lane' - as in just a few metres, with the
same red road surface leading into the ASL area.

The only reason for this can be the legal requirement re crossing the
stop line.
--
Chris French, Leeds

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Jon Senior

('jon@restlesslemon_DOT_co_DOT_uk.remove') said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

John is right. The SI requires all traffic to stop at the first
line, except cycles that can pass the first stop line only by means
of the cycle lane entering the ASL 'box'.

SI?

Statutary Instrument, at a guess.

Yes, Statutory Instrument 2002 No. 3113 to be precise, which says, at Part
1, Section 5, para 43(2):

(2) Where the road marking shown in diagram 1001.2 has been placed in
conjunction with light signals, "stop line" in relation to those light
signals means -

(a) the first stop line, in the case of a vehicle (other than a pedal cycle
proceeding in the cycle lane) which has not proceeded beyond that line; or

(b) the second stop line, in the case of a vehicle which has proceeded
beyond the first stop line or of a pedal cycle proceeding in the cycle lane.

<http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023113.htm#43>
and
<http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2002/023113am.gif>

....
Which means, pedal cycles can only pass the first stop line if they are
proceeding in the cycle lane - if not, they too have to stop at the first
stop line, unless the lights change after they've already crossed it, as for
cars.

Rich

Jon Senior said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I suspect Tony was referring more to the car drivers who persist in
stopping in the box regardless of circumstances. I had a wonderful
conversation with a taxi driver who did this. His reasoning; "There
aren't any cyclists in it".

Or alternatively from an Ing-er-land flag bearer, "I don't like having
cyclists in front of me; they're too slow."

r

"John Hearns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Adrian Boliston said:

"John Hearns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I recall reading on this group about the rules for Advance Stop Lines.
Am I right in saying that the rules say that cyclists must enter
an ASL using a cycle lane only?

and if there is no cycle lane?

That was my point.
I suspect that the road engineers had to somehow put in cycle lanes.
The lanes on the road were too narrow - so they hopped them onto
the pavement.
Just seeking other people's opinion on this one.

The ones I've seen (round Woolwich) have a solid white line across the road
except for the left hand side where the bike lane is.
Vehicles must not cross the solid line if lights are red.

Whenever I get to these and the lights are red, the LHS is usually blocked
by a bus that was moving out from the bus stop so I ignore the solid line
and enter from the right.
I haven't been arrested or harassed in any form (yet). I doubt if many
people know or care what the correct rules are.

Paul

Tony W said:

"John Hearns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I recall reading on this group about the rules for Advance Stop Lines.
Am I right in saying that the rules say that cyclists must enter
an ASL using a cycle lane only?

A bicycle is a fully signed up road user and can therefore, subject to
specific restrictions and privileges, use the road in any sensible manner.

I see no reason why one should not cycle straight up the middle of any of
the traffic lanes (including but not limited to any pink or green painted
guttering) and enter the ASL anywhere you wish.

Becasue it requires crossing a stop line. Fully signed up
road-vehicles are not permitted to cross stop lines when the
associated traffic signal is red. I think you'll find it's one of teh
specific restruictions to which you refer.

The numb-wits that revised teh rules for signal controlled junctions
did not write in any exceptions to the fact that vehicles must not
cross stop-lines, so if theres' no cycle lane feeeding teh ASL area
without crossing teh first stop line, you can't legally get to it

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I doubt if many
people know or care what the correct rules are.

This is true, and sadly applies to drivers who mostly seem to see the
red box as a more obvious way of marking where to stop.

Jon