article on music during exercise

h squared said:

maybe some old stuff, but i just saw it today
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/health/228041_condor13.html

some snips:
For example, one Ohio State study tracked people who run to music
compared with runners with no headphones. Runners with music evaluated
themselves as feeling less tired and strained, using a standard
scientific measurement called rate of perceived exertion. Those runners
were capable of running longer and more intensely given all other
training factors were equal.

i guess it depends on your goals. if you've used the crutch of
music to let you train harder and more intensely, what will
happen on the first tough race with headphones? some
of the time I keep running when i really want to quit, just
to try to develop some mental stength. It doesn't
always work. But those folk who say "I can't
workout without music" or "it's too boring"
are not destined to succeed in a race.

on the other hand, if your goal is just to run, say for fitness,
then headphones are fine.

one other point, everyone's concept of difficult is VERY
different. just today, a co-worker said to me that
biking is "useless". "i can bike for quite a long time, I
never sweat or even get tired. I'm just wasting my time".
i'm sure he's wasting his time at the level of exertion
that he chooses to work out at.

and a last point: "a standard scientific measurement called
rate of perceived exertion". hardly.
....thehick

h squared said:

maybe some old stuff, but i just saw it today
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/health/228041_condor13.html

some snips:
For example, one Ohio State study tracked people who run to music
compared with runners with no headphones. Runners with music evaluated
themselves as feeling less tired and strained, using a standard
scientific measurement called rate of perceived exertion. Those runners
were capable of running longer and more intensely given all other
training factors were equal.

i guess it depends on your goals. if you've used the crutch of
music to let you train harder and more intensely, what will
happen on the first tough race with headphones? some
of the time I keep running when i really want to quit, just
to try to develop some mental stength. It doesn't
always work. But those folk who say "I can't
workout without music" or "it's too boring"
are not destined to succeed in a race.

on the other hand, if your goal is just to run, say for fitness,
then headphones are fine.

one other point, everyone's concept of difficult is VERY
different. just today, a co-worker said to me that
biking is "useless". "i can bike for quite a long time, I
never sweat or even get tired. I'm just wasting my time".
i'm sure he's wasting his time at the level of exertion
that he chooses to work out at.

and a last point: "a standard scientific measurement called
rate of perceived exertion". hardly.
....thehick

frank-in-toronto said:

always work. But those folk who say "I can't
workout without music" or "it's too boring"
are not destined to succeed in a race.

on the other hand, if your goal is just to run, say for fitness,
then headphones are fine.

i mostly agree to train as you race, but i have listened to music to
train quite often and have succeeded at racing without it, so hence
(ack!) the qualifier "mostly". racing in itself is exciting in a way
that training (solo) is not to me.

Quoted message said:

and a last point: "a standard scientific measurement called
rate of perceived exertion". hardly.

but what do you think of the last bit you snipped, about verbal fluency
increasing? or maybe yer fluent enough, but i need all the help i can get 😉
heather

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:05:23 -0700, h squared
<[email hidden]> wrote:

....

Quoted message said:

i mostly agree to train as you race, but i have listened to music to
train quite often and have succeeded at racing without it, so hence
(ack!) the qualifier "mostly". racing in itself is exciting in a way
that training (solo) is not to me.

nothing is 100%. "mostly" applies.

Quoted message said:

but what do you think of the last bit you snipped, about verbal fluency
increasing? or maybe yer fluent enough, but i need all the help i can get 😉

i really have no opinion on that either way. Charles Emery is
studying how the mind works. he is not interested (as far as I
can see) in how exercise improves fitness. applying his studies
to a rec.running perspective is probably mis-use. the way
i see it, all that matters is the result. if i'm training for fun,
then music and laughter are required. if i'm training just
to improve my fitness, then they are extras. perhaps
even negative in the long run. of course, these things
overlap.

what i'm trying to say, is that this really doesn't matter.
music, no music, i don't care.
....thehick

h squared said:

For example, one Ohio State study tracked people who run to music compared
with runners with no headphones. Runners with music evaluated themselves
as feeling less tired and strained, using a standard scientific
measurement called rate of perceived exertion. Those runners were capable
of running longer and more intensely given all other training factors were
equal.

It was found ages ago that the less accomplished the runner, the lower his
percieved effort at his % of physiological maximum. In other words, elite
runners report a higher percieved effort at 80% of their max than do average
runners at theirs.

The sensation of effort alone is a pretty worthless measure.

Quoted message said:

Another positive for your iPod or personal CD player: Runners listening to
music during their workouts released fewer stress-related hormones in the
body. Their chemical reactions confirmed the feeling of less pain and
stress.

Was any of this correlated to % of vo2 or heartrate max? It's pretty
meaningless without some physiological coorelations.

Quoted message said:

Emery and colleagues followed 33 patients in the final weeks of a cardiac
rehab program.

I don't know about you, but I'm not in a cardiac rehab program. I've been
running and racing for 25 years...

Quoted message said:

They were scored on emotional, mental and cognitive scales before and
after two 30-minute treadmill sessions one week apart. The music used was
Vivaldi's "The Four Seasons."

It's been reported over and over that classical music seems to re-sync the
brain and improve mood and IQ for a period afterward. Problem: most
running music fans I know ain't listening to classical. I hear lots of
rhythmic rock & roll from their often overloud headphones. R&R and funk, I
believe actually *decrease* IQ for a time. (Disclosure: I listen to
classical, rock and hiphop, depending on how smart I want to be...)

Quoted message said:

"The jury is still out whether the type of music matters, though there
is some evidence that complex melodies are most positively stimulating,
such as what's known as the Mozart effect," said Emery. "Vivaldi certainly
fits in that category."

Probably true.

Quoted message said:

In all cases, the exercise boosted mood and post-workout verbal skills.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm always in a good mood after a run.

Quoted message said:

Where the study grabs attention is on the verbal fluency or short-term
cognitive scores. The numbers were twice as high for volunteers who
listened to music during their treadmill session compared with the control
group.

Again, an artifact of the type of music, I think. Try it again with 50
Cent, and see what happens.

But think about it: *twice* as fluent and intelligent? Music listeners
become mini-Stephen Hawkings and Tom Woolfes? Gimme a break....I've read
about a 10-15 point temporary IQ increase after listening to Classical.

I understand how lots of folks really love their tunes when they run, but
why would I want to distract myself from the natural sight and sounds of
running on my beloved trails? Or be distracted from my thoughts?

Maybe some runners don't enjoy running?

Good music takes me out of the here-and-now. It puts me in a kind of
trance -- an escape I often enjoy when *not* running.

It can also be a safety issue -- you can't hear traffic or mountain bikers
when you're rocking to your tunes. I've been surprised even without
headphones by mountain bikers blasting down a single-track as I'm climbing,
and have had several near misses. Imagine if I'd had less warning.

There was a longish thread on the ultra list about how inconsiderate and
unsafe it was. Imagine a runner on a single track trail with dropoffs who
can't hear much more than his tunes, who reacts with a huge startle reflex
when someone comes up from behind. Many races ban them for this reason.

-- Dan

Dan Stumpus said:

but
why would I want to distract myself from the natural sight and sounds of
running on my beloved trails? Or be distracted from my thoughts?

sorry if i'm wrong, but it seems like you are reading the article as an
argument that you, dan stumpus,*should* be listening to music when you
run. the way i read it was more a listing of ways that music with
exercise can be beneficial. it's good that you don't need those
benefits- you are already in shape and well motivated, that should make
you happy 🙂

in an experiment of one, i listened to the radio for 10 miles just a bit
ago, but this post isn't turning out to be the fascinating piece of
written elegance that i was hoping for...
heather

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:54:34 -0700, h squared
<[email hidden]> wrote:
....

Quoted message said:

in an experiment of one, i listened to the radio for 10 miles just a bit
ago, but this post isn't turning out to be the fascinating piece of
written elegance that i was hoping for...

i like that ending.
....thehick

I push myself too hard when running, to tolerate the distraction of
onboard music devices. But, I turn on my internal musical memory-bank
and run Floyd Cramer's rendition of "Oubladee---Oubladah" through my
head. Its rolling rhythm seems ideally matched to running.

However, I spend even more time training on a bike and there, I
always listen to my headphone radio, no matter how tough the workout. I
wouldn't want to have to mentally endure the long grind of a 50-mile
solo ride without the radio. Very rarely do I tune in music-----mostly
I listen to talk shows to keep my mind active.

Steve McDonald

What a load of [censored]. You wear nikes, don't you?

"h squared" <[email hidden]> wrote\

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but why would I want to distract myself from the natural sight and
sounds of running on my beloved trails? Or be distracted from my
thoughts?

Quoted message said:

sorry if i'm wrong, but it seems like you are reading the article as an
argument that you, dan stumpus,*should* be listening to music when you
run.

Actually, it only said that I'd be smarter, more lucid, less fatigued, and
in a better mood :-)

Quoted message said:

the way i read it was more a listing of ways that music with exercise can
be beneficial. it's good that you don't need those benefits- you are
already in shape and well motivated, that should make you happy 🙂

I guess I assume that most folks would enjoy the simple, undistracted
activity of going out for an easy run without inserting extra stimulation.

If there are folks who find it easier to get and stay in shape with a little
bit of extra motivation, that's a good thing.

-- Dan

h squared said:

maybe some old stuff, but i just saw it today
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/health/228041_condor13.html

Most of those references seemed to be *indoor exercise*, and I can
easily see where almost anything can help a person get by.

"Play music that in many ways depicts the intensity of the upcoming
workout as students enter the workout room," he said, explaining it
helps students unconsciously calibrate their breathing and heart rates
to the upcoming workout level."

Our cross-training class uses music (too loudly, imho) during some
sessions (usually the circuits), and I think it does help people keep
moving and be somewhat synchronized (somewhat helpful with many people
in small space). But for me, it adds stress, and one of the reasons I
haven't made it past 10-14 wks of the classes.

But I'm inherently an outdoor person and indoor time is stressful to me
(unless -50, 70mph winds, etc).

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

Dan Stumpus said:

I understand how lots of folks really love their tunes when they run, but
why would I want to distract myself from the natural sight and sounds of
running on my beloved trails? Or be distracted from my thoughts?

I agree. The "cool experience" factor to many trails keeps my mind busy.
No mental capacity beyond that.

Quoted message said:

Maybe some runners don't enjoy running?

Most of those studies look like they were indoor, some on tm.

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

frank-in-toronto wrote:
[...]

Quoted message said:

i guess it depends on your goals. if you've used the crutch of
music to let you train harder and more intensely, what will
happen on the first tough race with headphones? some
of the time I keep running when i really want to quit, just
to try to develop some mental stength. It doesn't
always work. But those folk who say "I can't
workout without music" or "it's too boring"
are not destined to succeed in a race.

on the other hand, if your goal is just to run, say for fitness,
then headphones are fine.

I do a lot of my training with headphones, as I mainly train on my own.
I don't wear them when I'm with a group - that would be plain rude. I
also occasionally race with headphones - results are statistically
useless, but anecdotally I reckon I do better with than without.

As for the argument about music raising or lowering IQ - my IQ is 155,
and I listen mainly to classical music, though not while running
(although the "Ode To Joy" from Beethoven's Ninth, or Orff's Carmina
Burana would be pretty motivating).

Edward

Dan Stumpus wrote:
...snip...

Quoted message said:

I understand how lots of folks really love their tunes when they run, but
why would I want to distract myself from the natural sight and sounds of
running on my beloved trails? Or be distracted from my thoughts?

Maybe some runners don't enjoy running?

Good music takes me out of the here-and-now. It puts me in a kind of
trance -- an escape I often enjoy when *not* running.

It can also be a safety issue -- you can't hear traffic or mountain bikers
when you're rocking to your tunes. I've been surprised even without
headphones by mountain bikers blasting down a single-track as I'm climbing,
and have had several near misses. Imagine if I'd had less warning.

There was a longish thread on the ultra list about how inconsiderate and
unsafe it was. Imagine a runner on a single track trail with dropoffs who
can't hear much more than his tunes, who reacts with a huge startle reflex
when someone comes up from behind. Many races ban them for this reason.

-- Dan

In the experience of this group, do people find that it's mostly women
who wear headphones during races? This is what I've observed locally
and I'm curious if it applies more generally. If so, why do you think
this is?

"lenny fackler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dan Stumpus wrote:
..snip...

Quoted message said:

I understand how lots of folks really love their tunes when they run, but
why would I want to distract myself from the natural sight and sounds of
running on my beloved trails? Or be distracted from my thoughts?

Maybe some runners don't enjoy running?

Good music takes me out of the here-and-now. It puts me in a kind of
trance -- an escape I often enjoy when *not* running.

It can also be a safety issue -- you can't hear traffic or mountain
bikers
when you're rocking to your tunes. I've been surprised even without
headphones by mountain bikers blasting down a single-track as I'm
climbing,
and have had several near misses. Imagine if I'd had less warning.

There was a longish thread on the ultra list about how inconsiderate and
unsafe it was. Imagine a runner on a single track trail with dropoffs
who
can't hear much more than his tunes, who reacts with a huge startle
reflex
when someone comes up from behind. Many races ban them for this reason.

-- Dan

In the experience of this group, do people find that it's mostly women
who wear headphones during races? This is what I've observed locally
and I'm curious if it applies more generally. If so, why do you think
this is?

i wouldnt say it's mostly women. i see a lot of men doing this too. it is
usually frowned on if not banned in most races because it is considered
unsafe.

Personally, i find that if my running is going poorly i like listening to
headphones to distract myself but if my running is going well i dont need
them.

Quoted message said:

lenny fackler said:

In the experience of this group, do people find that it's mostly women
who wear headphones during races? This is what I've observed locally
and I'm curious if it applies more generally. If so, why do you think
this is?

the one time i saw someone trying to wear them in a race, it was a guy,
but the people around him talked him out of it. (but i don't have a huge
amount experience either.)
h

h squared said:

but what do you think of the last bit you snipped, about verbal fluency
increasing? or maybe yer fluent enough, but i need all the help i can get 😉

I wasn't suprised by that. I have worked for a number of years with
children with autism and they need all the verbal fluency they can
get. The best sessions I had (ones where the data showed the number
of correct responses over trials over time) were ones where we started
off a session with exercise of some sort.. one child did really well
if
we went for a run around the block before hitting the table. Another
child could "sing" a response more fluently than speak it just as it
"stuck" more if sung to him for the first time.. (of course, the
godsmack melodies were getting a little obnoxious!) The kids who ran
before sessions were often much more focused and engaged in less self
stimulatory behaviors.

I have definitely pulled out the headphones on days that I was not
motivated to run in this 90F/95+%humidity weather.. and I was able
to distract myself to run. I think it falls along the same lines
as to why I suggest that people who are just starting to run, try
a running partner a few times a week. They concentrate less on
their aches and pains by having that distraction.. I am sure the
headphones helped some of those cardiac patients push themselves more
than they ordinarily would.

Erika