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article including remarks about free range chicken

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
15 April 2006
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17 April 2006
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Dee Randall
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  1. http://www.truthdig.com/interview/page4/20060411_michael_pollan_interview/

    Quote,

    Does the same thing go for free-range chickens and eggs?

    It's very interesting. Free-range chickens-I did go visit a large organic
    chicken producer here in California, and if you look at their label, there's
    a farmstead with a little silo and a farm house and a farmyard and chickens
    running around, but if you go to the farm, the chickens are grown in these
    huge barracks as long as a football field. They're indoors, there are 20,000
    of them in a house, and running along this barrack is what looks like a
    little front lawn-mowed, maybe 15 or 20 feet deep.

    "Whole Foods is very cleverly designed, but it's based on illusions. If you
    go to the farm depicted on those labels, you find that in fact, things look
    a little bit different."

    --Michael Pollan

    There's a little door at either side of the barrack where, theoretically,
    chickens could step outside and take the air. But they don't. One reason is
    that the doors are closed until the chickens are about five weeks old.

    The farmers-if you can use that word, the managers-are concerned that the
    chickens might catch their death of cold or pick up a germ, so they don't
    open the doors until the chickens are five weeks old. They smother them at
    seven weeks; so it's not exactly a lifestyle. It's more like a two-week
    vacation option. And the chickens don't avail themselves of this option
    because they've never been outside before. They're terrified of going
    outside. First of all, it's not big enough for the whole flock. Second of
    all, the food and water is inside; they're not used to it; they weren't
    brought up this way. They're like the cat in the Manhattan apartment; when
    you open the door they just stand there in terror wondering about the other
    dimension of reality outside that door.

    Free range is a conceit. It's to make us feel better about these chickens.
    It's not doing anything for the chickens, as far as I can tell.

    Yes, that organic chicken is still a better product, I think. It's getting
    better feed, it's got a few more inches of legroom than a conventional
    chicken, but it's not all it's cracked up to be.

    End quote.

    The remark about "Whole Foods" was in a box to the side. I couldn't tell
    whether he was speaking of Whole Foods, the business, or Whole Foods in
    general.

    Dee Dee

  2. "Dee Randall" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    "Whole Foods is very cleverly designed, but it's based on illusions. If
    you go to the farm depicted on those labels, you find that in fact, things
    look a little bit different."

    I would guess so! Seems a funny thing to say, to me. I
    suppose there are naive people out there who think the stores
    buy eggs from Auntie Em or something. Can't imagine why the
    writer thought people selling thousands and thousands of chickens
    have a big giant happy farm where chickens scratch for bugs.

    I don't know, the whole article struck me as strange.

    nancy

  3. They do taste a little different if they really are "free range", but to me,
    that's defined as a chicken that's been wandering around the yard from the
    time it felt like doing so, until it was slaughtered. Sadly, I can't do that
    in this neighborhood, although I haven't asked the zoning guy how much
    pocket lining he'd need to look the other way. 🙂

  4. Dee Randall said:

    http://www.truthdig.com/interview/page4/20060411_michael_pollan_interview/

    Quoted message said:

    The remark about "Whole Foods" was in a box to the side. I couldn't tell
    whether he was speaking of Whole Foods, the business, or Whole Foods in
    general.

    Dee Dee

    He's talking about the business. He's just come out with a book so his
    interviews are everywhere. I swear I heard this thing about the chickens about
    14 times in the past few weeks between NPR, MPR and the internet.

    When are we just going to accept that cruelty is the added zing that makes
    everything, from slave harvested cane sugar to milk fed veal, taste delicious!

    (I'm kidding, it's a joke, tongue firmly planted in cheek, sarcasm!)

    --
    ..:Heather:.
    www.velvet-c.com
    Step off, beyotches, I'm the roflpimp!

  5. "The Bubbo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    When are we just going to accept that cruelty is the added zing that makes
    everything, from slave harvested cane sugar to milk fed veal, taste
    delicious!

    As we speak, I have a rabbit in my basement, with wires attached to its
    little genitals. I will find out who's eating my lettuce, or there will be
    hell to pay. Ve haf vays of making zem talk.

  6. Doug Kanter said:

    They do taste a little different if they really are "free range", but
    to me, that's defined as a chicken that's been wandering around the
    yard from the time it felt like doing so, until it was slaughtered.
    Sadly, I can't do that in this neighborhood, although I haven't asked
    the zoning guy how much pocket lining he'd need to look the other
    way. 🙂

    Until recently (say, the last 5 years), there was a house down the street
    I'd drive past on my way to work. There were chickens running all around in
    the front yard and a really spectacular rooster with a tail the shades of a
    rainbow! They also had dairy cows; you could hear them lowing in the
    morning and the rooster crowing when the sun came up. Ur-ur-ur-ur-urrrrh!
    Those were truly free-range chickens. Bet those folks got some nice fresh
    eggs in the morning!

    Sadly, they sold out to developers. Now there are rows of little
    starter-homes (only $120,000!!) that all look alike, with no yards to speak
    of, and a middle school. This used to be the 'country'; now it's turning
    into just another suburb.

    Jill

  7. Doug Kanter said:

    "The Bubbo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    When are we just going to accept that cruelty is the added zing that makes
    everything, from slave harvested cane sugar to milk fed veal, taste
    delicious!

    As we speak, I have a rabbit in my basement, with wires attached to its
    little genitals. I will find out who's eating my lettuce, or there will be
    hell to pay. Ve haf vays of making zem talk.

    Weird! I have the same set up, but I'm just doing it for own amusement

    --
    ..:Heather:.
    www.velvet-c.com
    Step off, beyotches, I'm the roflpimp!

  8. Doug Kanter said:


    They do taste a little different if they really are "free range",

    But do they taste better or worse?
    Veal is raised in cramped quarters,
    and it is prized for that.

    The chicken industry should promote
    the conventional method of chicken
    farming as the "veal process". Then,
    we could all feel better about it.

    (Except for those NPR-liberals who don't
    even eat meat, so their opinions on what
    other people eat shouldn't count.)

  9. Dee Randall said:

    The remark about "Whole Foods" was in a box to the side. I couldn't tell
    whether he was speaking of Whole Foods, the business, or Whole Foods in
    general.

    I believe he was speaking of the company. Pollan is an interesting
    guy. His "Botany of Desire" is a really good read, and his articleon
    feedlots in the NY Times magazine a while back was fascinating. D
    just ordered his latest book for me.

    Thanks for posting the link.
    --
    modom

  10. "modom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Dee Randall said:

    The remark about "Whole Foods" was in a box to the side. I couldn't tell
    whether he was speaking of Whole Foods, the business, or Whole Foods in
    general.

    I believe he was speaking of the company. Pollan is an interesting
    guy. His "Botany of Desire" is a really good read, and his articleon
    feedlots in the NY Times magazine a while back was fascinating. D
    just ordered his latest book for me.

    Thanks for posting the link.
    --
    modom

    Thanks for the added information. DH passed it over to me; he will like to
    know this, and I, too, will be interested to see what he is talking about.
    It's my first time hearing of him.
    Dee Dee

  11. Dee Randall said:

    "modom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Dee Randall said:

    The remark about "Whole Foods" was in a box to the side. I couldn't tell
    whether he was speaking of Whole Foods, the business, or Whole Foods in
    general.

    I believe he was speaking of the company. Pollan is an interesting
    guy. His "Botany of Desire" is a really good read, and his articleon
    feedlots in the NY Times magazine a while back was fascinating. D
    just ordered his latest book for me.


    Thanks for the added information. DH passed it over to me; he will like to
    know this, and I, too, will be interested to see what he is talking about.
    It's my first time hearing of him.
    Dee Dee


    Did you check the Eat Well Guide he mentions in the interview?
    http://www.eatwellguide.org/ I just used it to find a place within
    striking distance of my house that sells hanger steaks (onglet) from
    grass-fed cattle. It might be an interesting weekend drive some day
    soon.
    --
    modom

  12. "modom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Dee Randall said:

    "modom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Sat, 15 Apr 2006 09:11:53 -0400, "Dee Randall"
    <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >The remark about "Whole Foods" was in a box to the side. I couldn't tell
    >whether he was speaking of Whole Foods, the business, or Whole Foods in
    >general.

    I believe he was speaking of the company. Pollan is an interesting
    guy. His "Botany of Desire" is a really good read, and his articleon
    feedlots in the NY Times magazine a while back was fascinating. D
    just ordered his latest book for me.


    Thanks for the added information. DH passed it over to me; he will like
    to
    know this, and I, too, will be interested to see what he is talking about.
    It's my first time hearing of him.
    Dee Dee


    Did you check the Eat Well Guide he mentions in the interview?
    http://www.eatwellguide.org/ I just used it to find a place within
    striking distance of my house that sells hanger steaks (onglet) from
    grass-fed cattle. It might be an interesting weekend drive some day
    soon.
    --
    modom

    If not for you, I wouldn't have found that and checked it out. I found an
    egg place and a meat place all within 30 miles on my way to the nearest town
    where I do my weekly-10 day shopping. It looks like they are nicely out in
    the country. I have printed out Streets & Trips directions for a couple of
    nice little side trips.

    You shall be rewarded! As a matter of fact, so will I -- thanks again.
    Dee Dee

  13. "Dee Randall" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    "modom" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Did you check the Eat Well Guide he mentions in the interview?
    http://www.eatwellguide.org/ I just used it to find a place within
    striking distance of my house that sells hanger steaks (onglet) from
    grass-fed cattle. It might be an interesting weekend drive some day
    soon.

    Quoted message said:

    If not for you, I wouldn't have found that and checked it out. I found an
    egg place and a meat place all within 30 miles on my way to the nearest
    town where I do my weekly-10 day shopping. It looks like they are nicely
    out in the country. I have printed out Streets & Trips directions for a
    couple of nice little side trips.

    You shall be rewarded! As a matter of fact, so will I -- thanks again.

    Same here, thanks Mike! See a couple of pork sources I could
    check out.

    nancy

  14. Nancy Young said:


    "Dee Randall" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    "modom" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Did you check the Eat Well Guide he mentions in the interview?
    http://www.eatwellguide.org/ I just used it to find a place within
    striking distance of my house that sells hanger steaks (onglet) from
    grass-fed cattle. It might be an interesting weekend drive some day
    soon.

    Quoted message said:

    If not for you, I wouldn't have found that and checked it out. I found an
    egg place and a meat place all within 30 miles on my way to the nearest
    town where I do my weekly-10 day shopping. It looks like they are nicely
    out in the country. I have printed out Streets & Trips directions for a
    couple of nice little side trips.

    You shall be rewarded! As a matter of fact, so will I -- thanks again.

    Same here, thanks Mike! See a couple of pork sources I could
    check out.


    Dee and Nancy, I just Googled Pollan's reference from the interview;
    weren't nuthin' special I did. But I'm here to tell you that pastured
    pork is a real treat. It tastes like a pig ought to taste.
    --
    modom

  15. "modom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Nancy Young said:


    "Dee Randall" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    "modom" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    > Did you check the Eat Well Guide he mentions in the interview?
    > http://www.eatwellguide.org/ I just used it to find a place within
    > striking distance of my house that sells hanger steaks (onglet) from
    > grass-fed cattle. It might be an interesting weekend drive some day
    > soon.

    Quoted message said:

    If not for you, I wouldn't have found that and checked it out. I found
    an
    egg place and a meat place all within 30 miles on my way to the nearest
    town where I do my weekly-10 day shopping. It looks like they are
    nicely
    out in the country. I have printed out Streets & Trips directions for a
    couple of nice little side trips.

    You shall be rewarded! As a matter of fact, so will I -- thanks again.

    Same here, thanks Mike! See a couple of pork sources I could
    check out.


    Dee and Nancy, I just Googled Pollan's reference from the interview;
    weren't nuthin' special I did. But I'm here to tell you that pastured
    pork is a real treat. It tastes like a pig ought to taste.
    --
    modom

    I checked at the library and found that "Botany of Desire" is available;
    and a copy of the 1991 Second Nature: A Gardener's Education 1991 edition
    is available, although "Second Nature" I notice is available as a
    paperback - Sep 2003.

    I had checked out Square Foot Gardening, an old edition, at the library, as
    our own copy had been given away; but happily when I went to Costco last, I
    found the new edition of SFG in paperback; and comparing, I like it better
    than the older version. Not so daunting -- great color pictures for Dee's
    comprehension -- tee hee.
    Thanks again,
    Dee Dee

  16. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Dee Randall said:

    so they don't
    open the doors until the chickens are five weeks old. They smother them at
    seven weeks; so it's not exactly a lifestyle. It's more like a two-week
    vacation option. And the chickens don't avail themselves of this option
    because they've never been outside before. They're terrified of going
    outside. First of all, it's not big enough for the whole flock. Second of
    all, the food and water is inside; they're not used to it; they weren't
    brought up this way. They're like the cat in the Manhattan apartment; when
    you open the door they just stand there in terror wondering about the other
    dimension of reality outside that door.

    The peron who wrote this is an idiot who has probably never actually
    taken care of chickens. S/he is right that for something to be called
    "free range" it only has to be outside for an hour a day, usually in a
    cage and that it is a farce and sad. However...

    In nature, the mother hen wouldn't allow her chicks out much from
    under her before five to six weeks anyway. All farmers keep their
    chicks in a brooder or in a brooder house with a hen for that time.
    They don't have feathers and would die of exposure if you let them run
    around, not to mention being pecked to death or smothered by the larger
    chickens, being eaten by rats/raccoons/eagles/hawks/owls/coyotes/etc,
    getting wet and chilled and freezing.

    This is part of why we have our chickens at home. They are in the
    coop at night, where they are protected from predators, and in their
    chicken yard during the day where they can scratch and eat grass and
    weeds and bugs. They are fenced in, the fencing is planted about two
    feet in the dirt to discourage animals from digging under it, there is
    netting above them, and there are bushes and trees that they can hide
    under when a hawk flies by. It took them about two or three days to get
    used to going in and out of the coop, but now they wait by the door when
    they hear us coming to open it in the morning, and when it starts to get
    dark they start marching back into it. If these big farm birds are too
    afraid to go out, it's because they only tried it one day.

    As for the food and water being indoors, except for in the heat of
    summer, our birds have their layer ration in a hanging feeder in the
    coop along with their water in a hanging waterer. We only put water
    outside when it is really hot, because otherwise they just go in and out
    to get water when they need it, slurp the dew from the plants, etc. In
    the summer, they drink so much more, so we put one outside as well, so
    they don't have to go too far to get water, it is near them in the coop
    if they are close to that, and it is outside if they are farther from
    the coop. However, most of their food is the stuff they find and eat
    outside, so who cares if their layer/broiler feed is inside? We also
    give them mashed eggshell and kitchen scraps to eat as treats and for
    calcium and grit. Just don't ever feed a chicken avocado or uncooked
    potato is what we've heard, and if you want them for eggs, no
    onions/peppers/brassicas, since they will flavor the eggs.

    Regards,
    Ranee

    Remove do not & spam to e-mail me.

    "She seeks wool and flax, and works with willing hands." Prov 31:13

    http://arabianknits.blogspot.com/
    http://talesfromthekitchen.blogspot.com/

  17. "Ranee Mueller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    Dee Randall said:

    so they don't
    open the doors until the chickens are five weeks old. They smother them
    at
    seven weeks; so it's not exactly a lifestyle. It's more like a two-week
    vacation option. And the chickens don't avail themselves of this option
    because they've never been outside before. They're terrified of going
    outside. First of all, it's not big enough for the whole flock. Second of
    all, the food and water is inside; they're not used to it; they weren't
    brought up this way. They're like the cat in the Manhattan apartment;
    when
    you open the door they just stand there in terror wondering about the
    other
    dimension of reality outside that door.

    The peron who wrote this is an idiot who has probably never actually
    taken care of chickens. S/he is right that for something to be called
    "free range" it only has to be outside for an hour a day, usually in a
    cage and that it is a farce and sad. However...

    In nature, the mother hen wouldn't allow her chicks out much from
    under her before five to six weeks anyway. All farmers keep their
    chicks in a brooder or in a brooder house with a hen for that time.
    They don't have feathers and would die of exposure if you let them run
    around, not to mention being pecked to death or smothered by the larger
    chickens, being eaten by rats/raccoons/eagles/hawks/owls/coyotes/etc,
    getting wet and chilled and freezing.

    This is part of why we have our chickens at home. They are in the
    coop at night, where they are protected from predators, and in their
    chicken yard during the day where they can scratch and eat grass and
    weeds and bugs. They are fenced in, the fencing is planted about two
    feet in the dirt to discourage animals from digging under it, there is
    netting above them, and there are bushes and trees that they can hide
    under when a hawk flies by. It took them about two or three days to get
    used to going in and out of the coop, but now they wait by the door when
    they hear us coming to open it in the morning, and when it starts to get
    dark they start marching back into it. If these big farm birds are too
    afraid to go out, it's because they only tried it one day.

    As for the food and water being indoors, except for in the heat of
    summer, our birds have their layer ration in a hanging feeder in the
    coop along with their water in a hanging waterer. We only put water
    outside when it is really hot, because otherwise they just go in and out
    to get water when they need it, slurp the dew from the plants, etc. In
    the summer, they drink so much more, so we put one outside as well, so
    they don't have to go too far to get water, it is near them in the coop
    if they are close to that, and it is outside if they are farther from
    the coop. However, most of their food is the stuff they find and eat
    outside, so who cares if their layer/broiler feed is inside? We also
    give them mashed eggshell and kitchen scraps to eat as treats and for
    calcium and grit. Just don't ever feed a chicken avocado or uncooked
    potato is what we've heard, and if you want them for eggs, no
    onions/peppers/brassicas, since they will flavor the eggs.

    Regards,
    Ranee

    I like the sounds they make when they're poking around the yard. Next best
    thing to sailboat hardware tapping against the masts gently on a calm night.
    And, that's all I have to say about chickens at the moment. 🙂

  18. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Mark Thorson said:

    But do they taste better or worse?

    The reason veal is better in cramped quarters is because the muscles
    don't get exercised much and they stay tender. If you slaughter them
    young, before they are weaned, they will still be tender and quite tasty.

    As for the chickens, you bet they taste better. They eat more
    greens, bugs, and their is a real richness to the flavor. We got
    chickens because the people we used to trade with for fresh chicken and
    duck eggs stopped raising them. We had to go back to store eggs, and
    they were miserable. Pale, watery yolks, not the firm, high, golden
    yolks, they tasted pale and watery too.

    Duck eggs make the best omelets, too, just need one egg for a person.
    We plan on getting ducks, geese and turkeys in a year or two. First we
    are getting honey bees. The poultry was my dream, the bees are Rich's.
    We are adding them one type at a time, each year, so we can get used to
    the care of each type of creature, rather than get overwhelmed and
    neglect them or harm them somehow.

    The boys want rabbits, and if they are still interested in two years,
    when they can show for 4-H and be more responsible for their care, we
    are going to get two breeding pairs for meat and fiber, satin angoras
    and the more traditional fluffy angoras.

    Anyone who is interested in really helping the small farmer survive
    in America, or kids who do 4-H animal husbandry, or family farmers who
    raise their own family's food, please e-mail me. The USDA is working
    very closely with agribusiness to edge out all small time farming, and
    make it too expensive and difficult to do.

    Regards,
    Ranee

    Remove do not & spam to e-mail me.

    "She seeks wool and flax, and works with willing hands." Prov 31:13

    http://arabianknits.blogspot.com/
    http://talesfromthekitchen.blogspot.com/

  19. Quoted message said:

    The peron who wrote this is an idiot who has probably never actually
    taken care of chickens. S/he is right that for something to be called
    "free range" it only has to be outside for an hour a day, usually in a
    cage and that it is a farce and sad. However...

    In nature, the mother hen wouldn't allow her chicks out much from
    under her before five to six weeks anyway. All farmers keep their
    chicks in a brooder or in a brooder house with a hen for that time.
    They don't have feathers and would die of exposure if you let them run
    around, not to mention being pecked to death or smothered by the larger
    chickens, being eaten by rats/raccoons/eagles/hawks/owls/coyotes/etc,
    getting wet and chilled and freezing.

    This is part of why we have our chickens at home. They are in the
    coop at night, where they are protected from predators, and in their
    chicken yard during the day where they can scratch and eat grass and
    weeds and bugs. They are fenced in, the fencing is planted about two
    feet in the dirt to discourage animals from digging under it, there is
    netting above them, and there are bushes and trees that they can hide
    under when a hawk flies by. It took them about two or three days to get
    used to going in and out of the coop, but now they wait by the door when
    they hear us coming to open it in the morning, and when it starts to get
    dark they start marching back into it. If these big farm birds are too
    afraid to go out, it's because they only tried it one day.

    As for the food and water being indoors, except for in the heat of
    summer, our birds have their layer ration in a hanging feeder in the
    coop along with their water in a hanging waterer. We only put water
    outside when it is really hot, because otherwise they just go in and out
    to get water when they need it, slurp the dew from the plants, etc. In
    the summer, they drink so much more, so we put one outside as well, so
    they don't have to go too far to get water, it is near them in the coop
    if they are close to that, and it is outside if they are farther from
    the coop. However, most of their food is the stuff they find and eat
    outside, so who cares if their layer/broiler feed is inside? We also
    give them mashed eggshell and kitchen scraps to eat as treats and for
    calcium and grit. Just don't ever feed a chicken avocado or uncooked
    potato is what we've heard, and if you want them for eggs, no
    onions/peppers/brassicas, since they will flavor the eggs.

    Regards,
    Ranee

    Probably you won't have the answer, or perhaps no one does, but I'm curious
    about feeding eggshell to chickens, only because isn't that where the
    problem lies with the spongiform diseases; i.e., feeding animal products to
    animal?
    Thanks,
    Dee Dee

  20. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Dee Randall said:

    Probably you won't have the answer, or perhaps no one does, but I'm curious
    about feeding eggshell to chickens, only because isn't that where the
    problem lies with the spongiform diseases; i.e., feeding animal products to
    animal?

    Chickens shouldn't have their own meat given to them, and they
    shouldn't be given raw eggs, for two different reasons. Raw chicken
    meat, because they can get disease, but really only if the bird they are
    eating is diseased, but mostly because they will get a taste for it, and
    chickens can become cannibal. That's why you need to stop them pecking
    (not the normal pecking order sorting out stuff, but actually getting
    blood), because once they taste the flesh and blood, they will peck a
    bird to death and go on to another one. I don't know about cooked, but
    I see no reason to give it to them. You can give them leftover meat you
    cook, but I figure they eat all those bugs, so it's not an issue.

    The eggs, they can eat just fine, in fact, we'll give them a hard
    boiled egg or two, crushed up with the shell, for extra protein and
    calcium. Again, you don't want it to be too recognizeable as egg to
    them, because they'll start pecking open their own eggs and eating them,
    and you won't get any egg. We crush the eggs/eggshells really well, so
    they don't see them as eggs.

    Regards,
    Ranee

    Remove do not & spam to e-mail me.

    "She seeks wool and flax, and works with willing hands." Prov 31:13

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