Arrrgh! Derailleur failure!

In article <[email hidden]>, luigi12081
@cox.net says...

Quoted message said:

The project bike--the Follis, whose progress I document on my
livejournal (link below)--continues to produce new annoyances.

The Simplex rear derailleur has failed. Half the teeth on one of the
lower wheel (pulley?) on the derailleur have somehow sheared off.
This comes as something of a shock to me, since my brother has been
riding it for a week now without incident.

What do I do now?

Also, the freewheel sounds really really gritty, no matter how much I
I try to flush it with WD-40. It's old and French: a Cyclo 72
5-speed freewheel. What do I do?

Take it apart, clean it out and re-lube it. Be careful not to lose the
very small bearings, and look closely at how the pawl springs go in when
you first take it apart. It's a bit tedious but not difficult. The
hardest part is getting the lock ring off.

--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the
newsgroups if possible).

On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 13:55:26 -0400, David Kerber

ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net said:

In article <[email hidden]>, luigi12081
@cox.net says...

Quoted message said:

The project bike--the Follis, whose progress I document on my
livejournal (link below)--continues to produce new annoyances.

The Simplex rear derailleur has failed. Half the teeth on one of the
lower wheel (pulley?) on the derailleur have somehow sheared off.
This comes as something of a shock to me, since my brother has been
riding it for a week now without incident.

What do I do now?

Also, the freewheel sounds really really gritty, no matter how much I
I try to flush it with WD-40. It's old and French: a Cyclo 72
5-speed freewheel. What do I do?

Take it apart, clean it out and re-lube it. Be careful not to lose the
very small bearings, and look closely at how the pawl springs go in when
you first take it apart. It's a bit tedious but not difficult. The
hardest part is getting the lock ring off.

.....and getting the tools necessary for the job, right?

Chain whip(s)
Freewheel puller
Bench vise....

*sigh*.

The most frustrating thing about all this is that IT WAS RUNNING FINE
JUST LAST WEEK .

Here I was thinking that I'd found a fairly cheap bike for my little
brother. But now I'm beginning to feel pretty annoyed.

The derailleur might not be a real problem, since I've got an old
Shimano rear deraileur attached to a frame that is slowly being
cannibalized for parts--provided I can fit an adaptor claw that will
fit the derailleur.

But the freewheel is a headache and a half. It's old, it's French,
and non-interchangeable with anything else. Sheldon Brown lists the
precise part on the Harris Cyclery website for thirty bucks, which
would be fine if I had the tools to pull the present one....

I am rapidly approaching the point beyond which any further monetary
investment in this bike would start to be futile. arrrgh.

-Luigi

In article <[email hidden]>, luigi12081
@cox.net says...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 13:55:26 -0400, David Kerber

ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net said:

In article <[email hidden]>, luigi12081
@cox.net says...

Quoted message said:

The project bike--the Follis, whose progress I document on my
livejournal (link below)--continues to produce new annoyances.

The Simplex rear derailleur has failed. Half the teeth on one of the
lower wheel (pulley?) on the derailleur have somehow sheared off.
This comes as something of a shock to me, since my brother has been
riding it for a week now without incident.

What do I do now?

Also, the freewheel sounds really really gritty, no matter how much I
I try to flush it with WD-40. It's old and French: a Cyclo 72
5-speed freewheel. What do I do?

Take it apart, clean it out and re-lube it. Be careful not to lose the
very small bearings, and look closely at how the pawl springs go in when
you first take it apart. It's a bit tedious but not difficult. The
hardest part is getting the lock ring off.

....and getting the tools necessary for the job, right?

Chain whip(s)

Not needed at all.

Quoted message said:

Freewheel puller

Required, but cheap ($5 or so).

Quoted message said:

Bench vise....

Helpful, but not really necessary.

The only other thing you really need is a nailset and a hammer to get
the lock ring loose. It's designed to use a two-pin spanner, but I've
never managed to get one loose with that.

.....

--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the
newsgroups if possible).

Luigi de Guzman said:

Chain whip(s)
Freewheel puller
Bench vise....

Quoted message said:

*sigh*.

Quoted message said:

The most frustrating thing about all this is that IT WAS RUNNING FINE
JUST LAST WEEK .

Quoted message said:

Here I was thinking that I'd found a fairly cheap bike for my little
brother. But now I'm beginning to feel pretty annoyed.

Quoted message said:

The derailleur might not be a real problem, since I've got an old
Shimano rear deraileur attached to a frame that is slowly being
cannibalized for parts--provided I can fit an adaptor claw that will
fit the derailleur.

Quoted message said:

But the freewheel is a headache and a half. It's old, it's French,
and non-interchangeable with anything else. Sheldon Brown lists the
precise part on the Harris Cyclery website for thirty bucks, which
would be fine if I had the tools to pull the present one....

Quoted message said:

I am rapidly approaching the point beyond which any further monetary
investment in this bike would start to be futile. arrrgh.

Welcome to the world of project bikes. Sometimes the best thing
is to find yet another cheap (cast-off, yard sale, thrift store) bike
and make 1 from 2. But in your specific case:

Derailleur - old Shimano will probably work way better than Simplex
anyway. Adaptor claw - probably can be found cheaply at LBS that
has been around for a while. You want the kind with an old codger,
not a chain store.

Freewheel - Chainwhip not needed except to take cogs off the body.
Easiest solution is to drip oil into the seam between fixed and rotating
parts. If you really want to take the body apart, don't actually
have to remove it from the bike. Use a nail set (punch) as David Kerber
suggested to remove the left-threaded cone. However, overhauling
freewheels is a PITA and may not be worth your time. Good "learning
experience" though.

Removing freewheel - need a remover and a big wrench. However, easier
solution is to take the wheel to the LBS where they should charge only
a few bucks (if that) to do it.

Replacing freewheel - French bike, French hub, and French freewheel
may mean FW is French threaded, but it might still be ISO threaded
anyway. If any one of the three is non-French, chances are you have
an ISO freewheel. Not sure a replacement French freewheel is a
good investment - might be worth riding the bike until another rear
wheel can be scavenged. Keep in mind that the bearings in a freewheel
only spin when coasting anyway, so the primary effect of a little grit
is to make noise.

Luigi de Guzman said:

It's old and French {...} What do I do?

Surrender.

Bill "too easy, I know" S.

Benjamin Weiner said:

Removing freewheel - need a remover and a big wrench. However, easier
solution is to take the wheel to the LBS where they should charge only
a few bucks (if that) to do it.

Use a bench vise, not a wrench. Especially if it has been on the bike
for a while, or wasn't greased when put on. I've had lots not come off
with a big wrench that were easy with a vise. You have to hold the
wheel anyway so you might as well turn it to remove the freewheel.
It's the point of maximum leverage.

If the pawls work, I'd leave the freewheel alone. Nothing is moving
when the pawls are engaged, so you're not losing energy or anything.
You won't go faster with a clean freewheel.
--
Ron Hardin
[email hidden]

On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.

Luigi de Guzman said:

The project bike--the Follis, whose progress I document on my
livejournal (link below)--continues to produce new annoyances.

The Simplex rear derailleur has failed. Half the teeth on one of the
lower wheel (pulley?) on the derailleur have somehow sheared off.
This comes as something of a shock to me, since my brother has been
riding it for a week now without incident.

What do I do now?

Someone just gave me an old (but low mileage) Simplex rear. At least I
think it is one of those, I'll check at work tomorrow. If you want it,
no charge.

ddandan at pacbell dot net

Luigi de Guzman said:

Also, the freewheel sounds really really gritty, no matter how much I
I try to flush it with WD-40. It's old and French: a Cyclo 72
5-speed freewheel. What do I do?

Well, for starters, wd40 is great for loosening stuck stuff and flushing
the gunk out, just put some proper lube in it. I restored an old raleigh
with a really gritty "sounding" Sturmey freewheel and it really liked
several drops of heavy gear oil. Shut it right up.

😄

Luigi de Guzman said:

The project bike--the Follis, whose progress I document on my
livejournal (link below)--continues to produce new annoyances.

The Simplex rear derailleur has failed. Half the teeth on one of the
lower wheel (pulley?) on the derailleur have somehow sheared off.
This comes as something of a shock to me, since my brother has been
riding it for a week now without incident.

Comes as a shock to me, too. The teeth on the jockey pulleys have
essentially zero stress on them. I can't imagine what could break them,
except an impact. But no matter...

Quoted message said:

What do I do now?

Jockey pulleys can often be traded between derailleurs of different
brands. If you can find _any_ junk derailleur, you may be able to
cannibalize it to replace that pulley.

OTOH, plastic Simplex derailleurs aren't worth much. An old Shimano or
SunTour would probably shift easier anyway. Have you checked the thrift
shops for a beater you can use for parts? Or an old bike shop?

Quoted message said:

Also, the freewheel sounds really really gritty, no matter how much I
I try to flush it with WD-40. It's old and French: a Cyclo 72
5-speed freewheel. What do I do?

As others have said, the French threads are a problem. You'll have a
hard time finding a repleacment.

Easiest strategy is to ignore it. A freewheel has to be pretty bad
before it causes problems. It doesn't spin unless you're coasting, and
as long as it doesn't lock up, it's not much to worry about.

Dissassembly isn't too hard if you're into finicky mechanic work - but
it sounds like you're not! If you decide to try it, be prepared to
catch the 100-or-so tiny ball bearings that will fall out. (A magnet
can be useful.) Get a pair of tweezers to deal with the hair-thin
springs that work the pawls. And use clean grease to hold the balls in
place while you're fiddling with reassembly. (No need to take it off
the hub, BTW.)

Perhaps you could postpone the freewheel work until winter, then maybe
find a way to give it a long soak in a pan of kerosene. I haven't done
this, you understand - I'm just thinking out loud, in a virtual way.

Quoted message said:

I really really *really* want to avoid having to buy a new
one.....*sigh*

And you can! This is just a test the Universe has arranged for you. A
test of your creativity, and your community connectedness. There are
also some bike mechanic lessons thrown in for free. ;-)

--
--------------------+
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
replace with cc.ysu dot edu]

Luigi de Guzman said:

The Simplex rear derailleur has failed. Half the teeth on one of the
lower wheel (pulley?) on the derailleur have somehow sheared off.
This comes as something of a shock to me, since my brother has been
riding it for a week now without incident.

C'est la vie.

Quoted message said:

What do I do now?

Get a new Shimano derailleur for less than you could replace the pulley
for. Actually, I suppose you could replace the pulley for a little less,
if the standard ones fit. But compared to modern derailleurs this is a
piece de merde.

Quoted message said:

Also, the freewheel sounds really really gritty, no matter how much I I
try to flush it with WD-40. It's old and French: a Cyclo 72 5-speed
freewheel. What do I do?

Well, here I would go for whatever I could to save it, because finding a
new French-threaded freewheel (if it really is the old French size,
compatible with nothing else) will be hard, and expensive.

After you have flushed out whatever you could get out of it, let it dry
out then lubricate it with mid-weight oil. That WD-40 will not lubricate
the bearings.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | It doesn't get any easier, you just go faster. --Greg LeMond
_`\(,_ |
(_)/ (_) |

David Kerber said:

Take it apart, clean it out and re-lube it. Be careful not to lose the
very small bearings, and look closely at how the pawl springs go in when
you first take it apart. It's a bit tedious but not difficult. The
hardest part is getting the lock ring off.

I really, really, disagree with this. I did this once, and once is
enough. The easiest part is getting the lock ring off! The hardest part
is getting it back together with anything like most of the bearings in the
proper place, and with any of the pawl springs actually working. No
freewheel is worth this, much less some ancient French one.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | "What am I on? I'm on my bike, six hours a day, busting my ass.
_`\(,_ | What are you on?" --Lance Armstrong
(_)/ (_) |

Frank Krygowski said:

Comes as a shock to me, too. The teeth on the jockey pulleys have
essentially zero stress on them. I can't imagine what could break them,
except an impact. But no matter...

He likes the bike so much he takes it for neighborhood rides without
telling me....so when I discovered this I was like "where in the world
have you been riding to do THIS??"

I won't let him cyclocross the bike until he can wrench his own
machines!

Upon further examination, the teeth seemed pretty worn-down. But half
of the pulley just snapping off? it was weird. Could it be that this
was what was causing the derailment problem?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What do I do now?

Jockey pulleys can often be traded between derailleurs of different
brands. If you can find _any_ junk derailleur, you may be able to
cannibalize it to replace that pulley.

OTOH, plastic Simplex derailleurs aren't worth much. An old Shimano or
SunTour would probably shift easier anyway. Have you checked the thrift
shops for a beater you can use for parts? Or an old bike shop?

There's my old Raleigh that's been waiting for a wheel for ages. It
has a Shimano rear derailleur that I can use, I guess. The Follis
uses a Simplex-type adaptor claw, which I gather from googling isn't
going to take a regular rear derailleur. But I'm guessing that if I
can find an adaptor claw that's properly threaded etc, this should be
a (fairly) trivial change, right?

(The Raleigh is slowly disappearing, part by part, either by
destruction--the rear wheel--or by cannibalism, as might be the case
here))

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Also, the freewheel sounds really really gritty, no matter how much I
I try to flush it with WD-40. It's old and French: a Cyclo 72
5-speed freewheel. What do I do?

As others have said, the French threads are a problem. You'll have a
hard time finding a repleacment.

Easiest strategy is to ignore it. A freewheel has to be pretty bad
before it causes problems. It doesn't spin unless you're coasting, and
as long as it doesn't lock up, it's not much to worry about.

See, but here's the funny thing about the freewheel: when I crank the
bike going forwards, it's all right. When I stop and let go of the
pedals, it spins--and the pedals keep spinning forwards! Next weird
thing: if I stop the wheel completely, and begin to pedal backwards,
the wheel turns backwards along with the pedal. Something tells me
that's not supposed to happen.

It worked fine for a while after the WD-40 flush, though.

Quoted message said:

Dissassembly isn't too hard if you're into finicky mechanic work - but
it sounds like you're not!

I'm not a natural wrench. I do it out of necessity, mostly. I do
enjoy the end of wrenching, which is a running bicycle. My little
brother will tell you that the *process* of wrenching, for me, boils
down to a bit of fumbling and quite a lot of swearing and berating
components for being generally uncooperative.

Quoted message said:

If you decide to try it, be prepared to
catch the 100-or-so tiny ball bearings that will fall out. (A magnet
can be useful.) Get a pair of tweezers to deal with the hair-thin
springs that work the pawls. And use clean grease to hold the balls in
place while you're fiddling with reassembly. (No need to take it off
the hub, BTW.)

This doesn't sound very appealing.

Quoted message said:

Perhaps you could postpone the freewheel work until winter, then maybe
find a way to give it a long soak in a pan of kerosene. I haven't done
this, you understand - I'm just thinking out loud, in a virtual way.

I think I'm going to try dripping some more and heavier oil down
there, and hoping that gritty sandy noise will go away.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I really really *really* want to avoid having to buy a new
one.....*sigh*

And you can! This is just a test the Universe has arranged for you. A
test of your creativity, and your community connectedness. There are
also some bike mechanic lessons thrown in for free. ;-)

It's teaching me an awful lot, that's for sure. The main lesson seems
to be this: there is no such thing as an "easy" bike project when it
comes to bicycles this old. There's always something I hadn't counted
on to surprise me.

-Luigi
www.livejournal.com/users/ouij
photos, rants, raves

Luigi de Guzman said:

See, but here's the funny thing about the freewheel: when I crank the
bike going forwards, it's all right. When I stop and let go of the
pedals, it spins--and the pedals keep spinning forwards! Next weird
thing: if I stop the wheel completely, and begin to pedal backwards,
the wheel turns backwards along with the pedal. Something tells me
that's not supposed to happen.

Quoted message said:

It worked fine for a while after the WD-40 flush, though.

It's just sticky, so it isn't free-wheeling very well. WD-40
is not a persistent lubricant. Flush it again, then drip some
oil (motor oil or even 3-in-1 will do) in between the fixed
part and rotating part, and rotate the gears by hand to get the
oil mixed in there. Keep in mind that although the pedals
spin forwards when you crank it by hand, in real life there's
a person's weight on them, so they won't go forward. You
want it to freewheel enough that it doesn't throw chain though.

On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 13:55:26 -0400, David Kerber
<ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Take it apart, clean it out and re-lube it.

Why bother? If you really want to clean it, soak it in paraffin,
leave it to dry thoroughly and run in some light oil - but actually
just runing in the light oil is normally enough. It's not like it
does much work, as long as the pawls engage, job done.

These things can be a bugger to get apart, and an even worse bugger to
get back together. Trust me, Sturmey Archer three-speed hubs are
easier :-)

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

David L. Johnson said:

David Kerber said:

Take it apart, clean it out and re-lube it. Be careful not to lose the
very small bearings, and look closely at how the pawl springs go in when
you first take it apart. It's a bit tedious but not difficult. The
hardest part is getting the lock ring off.

I really, really, disagree with this. I did this once, and once is
enough. The easiest part is getting the lock ring off! The hardest part
is getting it back together with anything like most of the bearings in the
proper place, and with any of the pawl springs actually working.

I've heard this before, but never understood it. I've disassembled many
freewheels, and never found it very hard. Sure, there are about 104
moving parts - but 100 of those are the ball bearings!

To get the bearings back into place, you stick them to the races with
light grease. The hardest thing about the process (these days, anyway)
is to not misplace my close-up glasses. (I want my old eyes back.)

Quoted message said:

No
freewheel is worth this, much less some ancient French one.

Well, I've got SunTour New Winners on at least four bikes, and a pretty
complete sprocket board, so I keep taking care of the freewheels. While
most freewheels need only flushing and oiling, I've had some that
required disassembly to completely clean.

In Luigi's situation, where a French-threaded freewheel would be almost
impossible to find, cleaning the freewheel saves the entire rear wheel.
To me, that would definitely be worth it.

--
--------------------+
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
replace with cc.ysu dot edu]

Just zis Guy said:

If you really want to clean it, soak it in paraffin...

West of the Atlantic, that would be kerosene.

--
--------------------+
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
replace with cc.ysu dot edu]