Armstrong vs Ullrich / racing weight

"Steve Kenney" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In the last stage climb I thought I heard Phil Ligget comment that Ullrich has a climbing
disadvantage carrying more weight than Armstrong. I must

have

Quoted message said:

heard this wrong, as I think I heard 33 pounds??? This can't be right. According to the rider
stat's on the TDF website Lance outweighs Jan by

2kg

Quoted message said:

or 4.4 pounds.

I don't think the rider's "official" weights from the TdF website can be trusted.

FWIW, Armstrong was quoted just before the Tour began as saying that he was struggling to get down
to his fighting weight of previous years of "about 74 kg". More recently, he was quoted as saying
that he weighed 66.5 kg immediately after the TT, vs. "probably" 72-73 kg that morning. Put it all
together, and my guess is that he normally weighs significantly more than 74 kg, diets down to that
weight by the start of the race, then loses another 1-1.5 kg during the race.

Armstrong's exact weight is relevant in attempting to estimate his power/weight based on reported
SRM data and/or climbing performance...which is why I've been taking note.

Andy Coggan

Andy Coggan said:

More recently, he was quoted as saying that he weighed 66.5 kg immediately after the TT, vs.
"probably" 72-73 kg that morning.

So, a difference of at least 5.5 kg. The evaporation enthalpy (not sure, if this is the correct
term) of water is a bit over 40 KJ/mol. So, to evaporte
5.5 kg of water in 1 hour, one would need a power of

5500 g/(18 g/mol) * 40000 J/mol / 3600 s = 3400 W

Or in other words, say Armstrong's body is working at 50% efficiency, it would be enough to cool a
power output of 3400 W (when the only heat loss is by sweating, and the air temperature is about
body temperature, and quite a few more ands ...).

Of course, some sweat will just drip down, and not evaporate. And warm up times etc. But those
numbers look way off.

Dieter

Steve Kenney said:

In the last stage climb I thought I heard Phil Ligget comment that Ullrich has a climbing
disadvantage carrying more weight than Armstrong. I must

have

Quoted message said:

heard this wrong, as I think I heard 33 pounds??? This can't be right. According to the rider
stat's on the TDF website Lance outweighs Jan by

2kg

Quoted message said:

or 4.4 pounds.

jan being around 30lbs heavier seems about right. he is 2" taller than lance (assuming available
stats are correct) and he looks a lot heavier.

"Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Steve Kenney" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In the last stage climb I thought I heard Phil Ligget comment that

Ullrich

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

has a climbing disadvantage carrying more weight than Armstrong. I must

have

Quoted message said:

heard this wrong, as I think I heard 33 pounds??? This can't be right. According to the rider
stat's on the TDF website Lance outweighs Jan by

2kg

Quoted message said:

or 4.4 pounds.

I don't think the rider's "official" weights from the TdF website can be trusted.

FWIW, Armstrong was quoted just before the Tour began as saying that he

was

Quoted message said:

struggling to get down to his fighting weight of previous years of "about

74

Quoted message said:

kg". More recently, he was quoted as saying that he weighed 66.5 kg immediately after the TT, vs.
"probably" 72-73 kg that morning. Put it all together, and my guess is that he normally weighs
significantly more than

74

Quoted message said:

kg, diets down to that weight by the start of the race, then loses another 1-1.5 kg during
the race.

Armstrong's exact weight is relevant in attempting to estimate his power/weight based on reported
SRM data and/or climbing

performance...which

Quoted message said:

is why I've been taking note.

Andy Coggan

I know that the rider's own websites have their "marketing" weights but does not the Tour do health
checks including weigh ins?

"Dieter Buerssner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Andy Coggan said:

More recently, he was quoted as saying that he weighed 66.5 kg immediately after the TT, vs.
"probably" 72-73 kg that morning.

So, a difference of at least 5.5 kg. The evaporation enthalpy (not sure,

if

Quoted message said:

this is the correct term) of water is a bit over 40 KJ/mol. So, to

evaporte

Quoted message said:

5.5 kg of water in 1 hour, one would need a power of

5500 g/(18 g/mol) * 40000 J/mol / 3600 s = 3400 W

Or in other words, say Armstrong's body is working at 50% efficiency, it would be enough to cool a
power output of 3400 W (when the only heat loss is by sweating, and the air temperature is about
body temperature, and quite a few more ands ...).

Of course, some sweat will just drip down, and not evaporate. And warm up times etc. But those
numbers look way off.

They are, because everyone has assumed Armstrong knew what he weighed before and after the TT.
Reading his comments, though, it appears to me that he weighed himself only afterwards, and was
guessing at his morning weight. My guess is that his state of dehydration was arrived at over a far
longer period than the just the 1 hour of the TT...most likely over days. (IOW, he was much lighter
than 72-73 kg on the morning of the TT.)

Andy Coggan

I have to say, the people on this newsgroup are extremely harsh on the announcers. It seems to me
there was a precident with Ulrich having problems with "similar" stiff wheels during a decent ('89).
Yes I know they weren't the same wheels blah balh blah, but the point is that there was a precedent,
and thus reason to mention it. Hardly talking out of his ass. He is COMMENTATING. Making interesting
commentary on a bike race when not much is going on is a fairly difficult job, I would assume, and I
think they (Phil and Paul) both do an excellent job, imho. Play by play of a decent would get pretty
old pretty fast...

He's rolling, and peddeling, and turning, and not pedeling, and rolling still, oohhh and now he's
peddaling, and still still always rolling! Oh and now he's turning again. ohhh very exciting! And
now he's going straight!

As for the weight, I recall hearing (last year/year before) that Lance was a good deal lighter than
Ulrich (maybe 20lbs? can't remember). Jan looks much bigger than Lance, and is taller. It is hard to
imagine that he is only 4.4 lbs heavier. I would guess at least 15, perhaps 20lbs difference. Could
be more...

Todd Kuzma said:

Steve Kenney said:

In the last stage climb I thought I heard Phil Ligget comment that Ullrich has a climbing
disadvantage carrying more weight than Armstrong. I must have heard this wrong, as I think I
heard 33 pounds??? This can't be right. According to the rider stat's on the TDF website Lance
outweighs Jan by 2kg or 4.4 pounds.

That was Paul Sherwen, and it's another example of him talking out his ass. Same thing with his
comment about Jan's wheels being too stiff.

Todd Kuzma

Todd Kuzma said:

Steve Kenney said:

In the last stage climb I thought I heard Phil Ligget comment that Ullrich has a climbing
disadvantage carrying more weight than Armstrong. I must have heard this wrong, as I think I
heard 33 pounds??? This can't be right. According to the rider stat's on the TDF website Lance
outweighs Jan by 2kg or 4.4 pounds.

That was Paul Sherwen, and it's another example of him talking out his ass. Same thing with his
comment about Jan's wheels being too stiff.

Yeah. Just like the ludicrous downhill speeds he sometimes states. He seems to have tamed that
exaggeration a bit in this years tour. Then again, I've been trained to tune him out when he makes a
"technical" claim.

Andy Coggan said:

"Steve Kenney" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In the last stage climb I thought I heard Phil Ligget comment that Ullrich has a climbing
disadvantage carrying more weight than Armstrong. I must

have

Quoted message said:

heard this wrong, as I think I heard 33 pounds??? This can't be right. According to the rider
stat's on the TDF website Lance outweighs Jan by

2kg

Quoted message said:

or 4.4 pounds.

I don't think the rider's "official" weights from the TdF website can be trusted.

FWIW, Armstrong was quoted just before the Tour began as saying that he was struggling to get down
to his fighting weight of previous years of "about 74 kg". More recently, he was quoted as saying
that he weighed 66.5 kg immediately after the TT, vs. "probably" 72-73 kg that morning. Put it all
together, and my guess is that he normally weighs significantly more than 74 kg, diets down to
that weight by the start of the race, then loses another 1-1.5 kg during the race.

I recall that Armstrong tries to get down to about 158 lb (72 kg) or so for the tour. Very light
considering I think I remenber he won the Du Pont at around 170-175 lb or so.

Quoted message said:

Armstrong's exact weight is relevant in attempting to estimate his power/weight based on reported
SRM data and/or climbing performance...which is why I've been taking note.

Isn't this obvious enough that it need not be stated? Never mind.

"Precious Pup" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Andy Coggan said:

"Steve Kenney" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In the last stage climb I thought I heard Phil Ligget comment that

Ullrich

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

has a climbing disadvantage carrying more weight than Armstrong. I

must

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

have

Quoted message said:

heard this wrong, as I think I heard 33 pounds??? This can't be right. According to the rider
stat's on the TDF website Lance outweighs Jan

by

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2kg

Quoted message said:

or 4.4 pounds.

I don't think the rider's "official" weights from the TdF website can be trusted.

FWIW, Armstrong was quoted just before the Tour began as saying that he

was

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

struggling to get down to his fighting weight of previous years of

"about 74

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

kg". More recently, he was quoted as saying that he weighed 66.5 kg immediately after the TT,
vs. "probably" 72-73 kg that morning. Put it

all

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

together, and my guess is that he normally weighs significantly more

than 74

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

kg, diets down to that weight by the start of the race, then loses

another

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

1-1.5 kg during the race.

I recall that Armstrong tries to get down to about 158 lb (72 kg) or so

for the tour. Very light considering

Quoted message said:

I think I remenber he won the Du Pont at around 170-175 lb or so.

Quoted message said:

Armstrong's exact weight is relevant in attempting to estimate his power/weight based on
reported SRM data and/or climbing

performance...which

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

is why I've been taking note.

Isn't this obvious enough that it need not be stated? Never mind.

I think he is trying to establish that his opinion is important because he is highly motivated
to find out?

Gregory Kinney said:

I have to say, the people on this newsgroup are extremely harsh on the announcers. It seems to me
there was a precident with Ulrich having problems with "similar" stiff wheels during a decent
('89). Yes I know they weren't the same wheels blah balh blah, but the point is that there was a
precedent, and thus reason to mention it. Hardly talking out of his ass. He is COMMENTATING.

He may have had problems with earlier wheels, but those problems had nothing to do with stiffness.
Sherwen is off on two account here. First, he says that the wheels are "too stiff" when in fact
these wheels are quite flexible. Second, if they were stiff, that would be an advantage in handling.
I see no advantage of a flexible wheel.

Quoted message said:

As for the weight, I recall hearing (last year/year before) that Lance was a good deal lighter
than Ulrich (maybe 20lbs? can't remember). Jan looks much bigger than Lance, and is taller. It is
hard to imagine that he is only 4.4 lbs heavier. I would guess at least 15, perhaps 20lbs
difference. Could be more...

According to the Tour site, Lance is 1.77m tall and weighs 75 kg (165 pounds). According to the USPS
team site, he is
1.78m tall and weighs 77 kg (170 pounds).

According to the Tour site, Bianchi team site, and Jan Ullrich's own site, Jan is 1.83 mm tall and
weighs 73 kg (161 pounds).

So, I guess all of these sources are off by 35-40 pounds, and Jan Ullrich is the best 195+ pound
climber in the history of cycling.

Todd Kuzma

"Nick Burns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Precious Pup" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Andy Coggan wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Armstrong's exact weight is relevant in attempting to estimate his power/weight based on
reported SRM data and/or climbing

performance...which

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

is why I've been taking note.

Isn't this obvious enough that it need not be stated? Never mind.

I think he is trying to establish that his opinion is important because he is highly motivated to
find out?

Actually, the Woofman has a bit of a point...this thread is, after all, about climbing speed (which
is a function of power/weight). I brought it up only A) as you indicated, to emphasize that I've
been trying to stay informed, and B) because of the all the discussion re. dehydration.

Andy Coggan

P.S. 494 W divided by even just 72 kg is still "only" 6.86 W/kg...and that uphill for only 30 min.
Armstrong will therefore never own the hour record....

There have been several articles that I have read discussing the superior power-to-weight ratio of
Armstrong. This would imply that he is lighter, since Ullrich is no slouch when it comes to power.

Countless times I have heard, through my ears, about how much lighter Armstrong is that Ulrich.

You make the reactionary statment that [if] the sources are off by 35-40 lbs (???) then Ulrich is
195 lbs. What?. If LA is more like 155-160lbs (71 kg is what I have seen quoted), and Ulrich is more
like 165-170 lbs, that is a 10-15 lb difference.

snipped from an above post:

"...and my guess is that he normally weighs significantly more than 74 kg, diets down to that weight
by the start of the race, then loses another 1-1.5 kg during the race."

This is exactly what I have read. he weighs about 77 kg, and drops to 71 around race time = 156lbs

I would be very surprised if a 5'9" person with 4% body fat with very little upper body mass is
170lbs. He probably gets this lean for the race...

In the past, I thought Ullrich had weight problems; and perhaps he doesn't lose the weight before
the race...

Todd Kuzma said:

According to the Tour site, Lance is 1.77m tall and weighs 75 kg (165 pounds). According to the
USPS team site, he is 1.78m tall and weighs 77 kg (170 pounds).

According to the Tour site, Bianchi team site, and Jan Ullrich's own site, Jan is 1.83 mm tall and
weighs 73 kg (161 pounds).

So, I guess all of these sources are off by 35-40 pounds, and Jan Ullrich is the best 195+ pound
climber in the history of cycling.

Todd Kuzma

gk said:

You make the reactionary statment that [if] the sources are off by 35-40 lbs (???) then Ulrich is
195 lbs. What?.

This thread started with Paul Sherwen's comment that Jan Ullrich weigh 33 pounds more than
Armstrong. I said that he was talking out his ass and from what you write below, you agree:

Quoted message said:

If LA is more like 155-160lbs (71 kg is what I have seen quoted), and Ulrich is more like 165-170
lbs, that is a 10-15 lb difference.

Lance said after stage 13 that his race weight this year is 72 kg (158 pounds - below what the
"official" sites list him as). Ullrich is listed by several sources as 73 kg. He is much lighter
than in past years.

In any case, I stand by my comment that Paul Sherwen is talking out his ass.

Todd Kuzma

in article [email hidden], Todd Kuzma at [email hidden] wrote on 7/22/03 1:12 PM:

Quoted message said:

Gregory Kinney said:

I have to say, the people on this newsgroup are extremely harsh on the announcers. It seems to me
there was a precident with Ulrich having problems with "similar" stiff wheels during a decent
('89). Yes I know they weren't the same wheels blah balh blah, but the point is that there was a
precedent, and thus reason to mention it. Hardly talking out of his ass. He is COMMENTATING.

He may have had problems with earlier wheels, but those problems had nothing to do with stiffness.
Sherwen is off on two account here. First, he says that the wheels are "too stiff" when in fact
these wheels are quite flexible. Second, if they were stiff, that would be an advantage in
handling. I see no advantage of a flexible wheel.

Quoted message said:

As for the weight, I recall hearing (last year/year before) that Lance was a good deal lighter
than Ulrich (maybe 20lbs? can't remember). Jan looks much bigger than Lance, and is taller. It is
hard to imagine that he is only 4.4 lbs heavier. I would guess at least 15, perhaps 20lbs
difference. Could be more...

According to the Tour site, Lance is 1.77m tall and weighs 75 kg (165 pounds). According to the
USPS team site, he is
1.78m tall and weighs 77 kg (170 pounds).

According to the Tour site, Bianchi team site, and Jan Ullrich's own site, Jan is 1.83 mm tall and
weighs 73 kg (161 pounds).

So, I guess all of these sources are off by 35-40 pounds, and Jan Ullrich is the best 195+ pound
climber in the history of cycling.

Todd Kuzma

I guess it was Paul Sherwen and not Phil Ligget who commented about Ullrich weighing 33 pounds more
than Armstrong. Ullrich does look larger but several sources claim Lance weighs more than Jan. Body
fat percentage could make a heavier person look smaller??? It probably was Mr. Sherwen who also
said that the big guy Ullrich is like a diesel engine who is slow to get up too speed but can go
all day once he get's there? He also pointed out the slower cadence of Ullrich. All funny and
interesting comments. OLN and ALL the announcers are doing a great job and I've enjoyed watching so
no need to change anything as far as I'm concerned. But could you officially weigh them in to clear
this up? ;-)

Steve Kenney

"Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<1CeTa.109244$OZ2.21138@rwcrnsc54>...

Quoted message said:

Steve Kenney said:

In the last stage climb I thought I heard Phil Ligget comment that Ullrich has a climbing
disadvantage carrying more weight than Armstrong. I must

have

Quoted message said:

heard this wrong, as I think I heard 33 pounds??? This can't be right. According to the rider
stat's on the TDF website Lance outweighs Jan by

2kg

Quoted message said:

or 4.4 pounds.

jan being around 30lbs heavier seems about right. he is 2" taller than lance (assuming available
stats are correct) and he looks a lot heavier.

Ullrich's weight has to be an advantage on the downhill!!!

Dieter Buerssner <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Andy Coggan said:

More recently, he was quoted as saying that he weighed 66.5 kg immediately after the TT, vs.
"probably" 72-73 kg that morning.

So, a difference of at least 5.5 kg. The evaporation enthalpy (not sure, if this is the correct
term) of water is a bit over 40 KJ/mol. So, to evaporte
5.5 kg of water in 1 hour, one would need a power of

5500 g/(18 g/mol) * 40000 J/mol / 3600 s = 3400 W

Or in other words, say Armstrong's body is working at 50% efficiency, it would be enough to cool a
power output of 3400 W (when the only heat loss is by sweating, and the air temperature is about
body temperature, and quite a few more ands ...).

Of course, some sweat will just drip down, and not evaporate. And warm up times etc. But those
numbers look way off.

Armstrong's body will be working well below 50% efficiency - cyclists are typically about 25%
efficient, IIRC. In any case, you're wrong about this evaporation issue: the body does not typically
produce just-enough sweat to theoretically cool itself, it produces a lot more. And if you're trying
to claim that Armstrong needs to be producing that much heat to make the sweat evaporate, consider
clothes drying on a washing line.

In any case, I am not convinced that Armstrong actually lost that much water weight between the
morning and getting off his bike: I know someone who lost 2 kg in a few hours to make weight for an
indoor rowing competition, and that cost them about 50 watts off their normal power. If Armstrong
had really lost that much fluid, he'd be lucky to produce 100 watts below his normal power - and he
was certainly producing more than that. My take: firstly, he started weighing less than he thought
was 'probable', because riders do lose weight in the mountains, and secondly he spilt a fair bit of
the 4 litres he claimed to have drunk before getting weighed in down himself - as you would when
overheated and knackered.

Peter

Todd Kuzma said:

According to the Tour site, Lance is 1.77m tall and weighs 75 kg (165 pounds). According to the
USPS team site, he is
1.78m tall and weighs 77 kg (170 pounds).

I sure don't believe that last number, unless Lance has been hiding penny rolls in his shorts. This
is based on nothing more scientific than a comparison to my own Fat Master body. I don't really
believe any of these numbers apply especially after 2.5 weeks of high intensity racing.

As for the business about Jan's deep dish carbon wheels, it is likely the braking quality that is an
issue, not stiffness. Dan Connelly needs to repost a link to that picture of Bill Lloyd's road rash
at Pescadero for corroboration. Give Sherwen a break, with having to talk nonstop for hours while
diplomatically correcting Phil's misidentifications, he is going to make up some random stuff.

Quoted message said:

According to the Tour site, Bianchi team site, and Jan Ullrich's own site, Jan is 1.83 mm tall and
weighs 73 kg (161 pounds).

Todd Kuzma <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

According to the Tour site, Lance is 1.77m tall and weighs 75 kg (165 pounds).

So, I'm 1.75m tall, and I weigh 70 kgs -- how come I'm not in the Tour de France, huh? huh? huh?

Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky ([email hidden])

Home of the meditative cyclist: home.earthlink.netWelcome.htmOpen ↗

Books just wanna be FREE! See what I mean at: bookcrossing.comCpeterskyOpen ↗

gk <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

There have been several articles that I have read discussing the superior power-to-weight ratio of
Armstrong. This would imply that he is lighter, since Ullrich is no slouch when it comes to power.

Countless times I have heard, through my ears, about how much lighter Armstrong is that Ulrich.

You make the reactionary statment that [if] the sources are off by 35-40 lbs (???) then Ulrich is
195 lbs. What?. If LA is more like 155-160lbs (71 kg is what I have seen quoted), and Ulrich is
more like 165-170 lbs, that is a 10-15 lb difference.

snipped from an above post:

"...and my guess is that he normally weighs significantly more than 74 kg, diets down to that
weight by the start of the race, then loses another 1-1.5 kg during the race."

This is exactly what I have read. he weighs about 77 kg, and drops to 71 around race time = 156lbs

I would be very surprised if a 5'9" person with 4% body fat with very little upper body mass is
170lbs. He probably gets this lean for the race...

In the past, I thought Ullrich had weight problems; and perhaps he doesn't lose the weight before
the race...

Todd Kuzma said:

According to the Tour site, Lance is 1.77m tall and weighs 75 kg (165 pounds). According to the
USPS team site, he is 1.78m tall and weighs 77 kg (170 pounds).

According to the Tour site, Bianchi team site, and Jan Ullrich's own site, Jan is 1.83 mm tall
and weighs 73 kg (161 pounds).

So, I guess all of these sources are off by 35-40 pounds, and Jan Ullrich is the best 195+ pound
climber in the history of cycling.

Todd Kuzma

I agree