"Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
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"Boyd Speerschneider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
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"Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:
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I have to agree with you. Can you imagine how Armstrong's teammates feel after working their butt off all day to put him into position to win, then not only does he play the "anybody but Boogerd" game, but then doesn't even contest the final sprint?
Of course, we're assuming that Armstrong was deliberately racing negatively...it could be that he thought Vinokourov would come back w/o anyway, and he was doing his best to avoid a three-peat.
Andy Coggan
Maybe Armstrong was just cooked?
Which is what I asked at the outset.
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Or maybe he was just feigning to be cooked so the others would chase?
Which is why I titled the thread "Armstrong miscalculation?" (since his ploy, if it were one, didn't work).
Andy Coggan
Yup, a momentary lapse for both LA and Boogerd; but it also speaks to the caginess of Vinokourov's move, knowing they would be marking each other heavily. Which makes sense, knowing the LA/Rabo history at Amstel. Vinokourov also said he had to do it since he wouldn't have had a chance if he'd gotten to the Cauberg in the same bunch with those guys. The right move at the right time - gotta love it. Bit of Zoetemelk in there, don't you think?
"Rik Van Diesel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
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"Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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So while Armstrong was marking Boogerd, Vinokourov slipped away for the eventual win. Question is, was this just a tactical error on Armstrong's part (w/ hindsight of course being 20-20), or did he just not have the
legs
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to win himself?
Maybe it is because Lance sold the race last year to Rabo for some work at the tour. Then Rabo screwed them first chance they had at the tour. Then lance and Rabo made up (kiss kiss), and he lets Booger win stage 16 in exchange for some more time on the front. Then Rabo screws Postal again by not working the next day, and puttin two GC guys in the break pissing them off more. Fastforward to the tour of Holland when on stage 4 postal let the break go and refuse to chase even thought they were in the lead thus forcing Rabo to work, and continuing the bad blood. Or maybe lance just sucks cause he races like 10 times a year, but my money is on hate for Rabo. RVD
My money is on-
a) Lance wants a classic win this year; b) He missed the break, and did not want to tow up the rest, & c) Why go for second or third?
"Simon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
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"Rik Van Diesel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
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"Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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So while Armstrong was marking Boogerd, Vinokourov slipped away for
the
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eventual win. Question is, was this just a tactical error on
Armstrong's
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part (w/ hindsight of course being 20-20), or did he just not have the
legs
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to win himself?
Maybe it is because Lance sold the race last year to Rabo for some work at the tour. Then Rabo screwed them first chance they had at the tour. Then lance and Rabo made up (kiss kiss), and he lets Booger win stage 16 in exchange for some more time on the front. Then Rabo screws Postal again by not working the next day, and puttin two GC guys in the break pissing them off more. Fastforward to the tour of Holland when on stage 4 postal let the break go and refuse to chase even thought they were in the lead thus forcing Rabo to work, and continuing the bad blood. Or maybe lance just sucks cause he races like 10 times a year, but my money is on hate for Rabo. RVD
My money is on-
a) Lance wants a classic win this year; b) He missed the break, and did not want to tow up the rest, & c) Why go for second or third?
wrong on all counts - RVD's theory is backed up by some of BoogerD's post-race comments.
See previous post by Robert Chung. I don't think Lance is the kind of guy that would compromise his chances for victory. I also don't think he would ride himself into the ground for 260 km just to see Boogerd lose. After Lance is no longer a Tour contender (which might not ever happen), I'd like to see him dedicate a season chasing classics. I could see him doing well in RvV potentially. Lemond did 'em.
James P. Spooner
"Simon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
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"Rik Van Diesel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
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"Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...
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So while Armstrong was marking Boogerd, Vinokourov slipped away for
the
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eventual win. Question is, was this just a tactical error on
Armstrong's
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part (w/ hindsight of course being 20-20), or did he just not have the
legs
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to win himself?
Maybe it is because Lance sold the race last year to Rabo for some work at the tour. Then Rabo screwed them first chance they had at the tour. Then lance and Rabo made up (kiss kiss), and he lets Booger win stage 16 in exchange for some more time on the front. Then Rabo screws Postal again by not working the next day, and puttin two GC guys in the break pissing them off more. Fastforward to the tour of Holland when on stage 4 postal let the break go and refuse to chase even thought they were in the lead thus forcing Rabo to work, and continuing the bad blood. Or maybe lance just sucks cause he races like 10 times a year, but my money is on hate for Rabo. RVD
My money is on-
a) Lance wants a classic win this year; b) He missed the break, and did not want to tow up the rest, & c) Why go for second or third?
"Ewoud Dronkert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
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WooGoogle said:
OTOH, maybe Armstrong was remembering those two(?) classics wins that Boogerd got by sitting on Armstrong's wheel.
One for Boogerd (sitting on A's wheel), one for Dekker (cooperating and leading out the sprint).
Armstrong was *een klein beetje* nonplussed at the start of the Amstel when Mart Smeets was chatting to him in front of thousands of fans and said something like "You've been beaten twice by Rabobank riders: Boogerd beat your ass and Dekker beat your ass - what are you going to do this year?"
Despite this he was actually in quite a good mood at the start.
"WooGoogle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
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I didn't mean to imply he would let anybody else but Boogerd (that's possible) win but that he didn't want to lose to Boogerd the same
way
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thrice, so he would make Boogerd do a fair share of the chasing, if they were going to chase.
I'm convinced you're correct. In the heat of a moment like that you don't have cagey thoughts, just nice simple one's like, "that [censored] isn't going to do me a third time."
"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> skrev i meddelandet "]news:[email hidden]...
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Then Armstrong is silly and unprofessional. He should try to win and
not
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hold grudge for something that happened years ago, especially since
Boogerd
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never did anything wrong, he just practised basic team tactics.
Did you see Boogerd trying to win? If he had been he would have followed Vinokourov.
Boogerd did go after Vinokourov (didn't you see the race?). The problem was that Boogerd was alone, Vinokourov benefited from being part of the strongest team for the day, Telekom.
"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> skrev i meddelandet "]news:[email hidden]...
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I'm convinced you're correct. In the heat of a moment like that you don't have cagey thoughts, just nice simple one's like, "that [censored] isn't going to do me a third time."
Come on, give Armstrong a little credit. He just chased the strongest riders, he followed every move from Boogerd and Kessler. It's just that simple.
"Oscar Mannheim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
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"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> skrev i meddelandet "]news:[email hidden]...
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Then Armstrong is silly and unprofessional. He should try to win
and
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not
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hold grudge for something that happened years ago, especially
since
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Boogerd
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never did anything wrong, he just practised basic team tactics.
Did you see Boogerd trying to win? If he had been he would have followed Vinokourov.
Boogerd did go after Vinokourov (didn't you see the race?). The
problem was
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that Boogerd was alone, Vinokourov benefited from being part of the strongest team for the day, Telekom.
Too little and too late. Boogerd figured on dropping everyone and that's why he went so late and so hard. But not hard enough by two seconds. He got what he deserved.
"Robert Chung" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
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The L'Equipe reporter had also interviewed Armstrong:
Q: We had the feeling that at the end, you were one of the strongest but also one of the most marked. Could you have done anything?
A: Lots of guys were marked. The endgame was very tactical. Everyone was watching for the favorites to jump. It's the nature of the game even if, in the final analysis, it was negative racing. And when Vinokourov had 200 meters, I knew that it was over especially since Kessler was there. Telekom is very strong on paper, but it also proved itself on the ground. In the end, I didn't even try to sprint. It doesn't really interest me to finish second again at this race.
Yeah nevermind finishing 2nd and picking up a few extra bucks for your teammates. 8th is so much better
"Oscar Mannheim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
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"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> skrev i meddelandet "]news:[email hidden]...
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I'm convinced you're correct. In the heat of a moment like that
you
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don't have cagey thoughts, just nice simple one's like, "that
[censored]
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isn't going to do me a third time."
Come on, give Armstrong a little credit. He just chased the
strongest
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riders, he followed every move from Boogerd and Kessler. It's just
that
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simple.
That's true and he wasn't about to tow them up to Vinokourov. Lance said that when he saw Vinokourov go he knew that there was the win dancing away. Why should he tow two strong guys up there just to be put down? That was the smart move for him.
"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> skrev i meddelandet "]news:[email hidden]...
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I'm convinced you're correct. In the heat of a moment like that you don't have cagey thoughts, just nice simple one's like, "that [censored] isn't going to do me a third time."
Boogerd beat Armstrong _once_ in Amstel Gold - the other time Dekker beat Armstrong, even though Dekker did most of the work.
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Come on, give Armstrong a little credit. He just chased the strongest riders, he followed every move from Boogerd and Kessler. It's just that simple.
Armstrong rode a very passive race for certain. I don't know what he was hoping for as he knew that Boogerd could beat him in an uphill sprint. Armstrong was following and chasing but he never attacked. Perhaps the fact that A-G came a week earlier means that Armstrong was not in top form. Let's see what he does in L-B-L.
Yup, a momentary lapse for both LA and Boogerd; but it also speaks to the caginess of Vinokourov's move, knowing they would be marking each other heavily. Which makes sense, knowing the LA/Rabo history at Amstel. Vinokourov also said he had to do it since he wouldn't have had a chance if he'd gotten to the Cauberg in the same bunch with those guys. The right move at the right time - gotta love it. Bit of Zoetemelk in there, don't you think?
Telekom had 2 guys in the front group, Vino and Kessler. Vino told Kessler he didn't have the legs for a sprint, so Kessler said he would handle the sprint. Vino took off with 5 kms to go to soften up Boogerd and make it easier for Kessler. Until the base of the climb I think he was expecting to get caught. Once he hit the climb he probably thought, "What the hell, this race might be mine if I give it everything".
"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> skrev i meddelandet "]news:[email hidden]...
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I'm convinced you're correct. In the heat of a moment like that you don't have cagey thoughts, just nice simple one's like, "that [censored] isn't going to do me a third time."
Come on, give Armstrong a little credit. He just chased the strongest riders, he followed every move from Boogerd and Kessler. It's just that simple.
But he didn't chase the strongest rider. If the Lance tifosi think it was a tactical error and he was was simply playing to screw over BoogerD, he should have at least placed second.
LA & Boogerd both know they made an error in letting Vinokourov get too much room at the wrong time. Boogerd just chose to sprint for second when he knew it was over, while Armstrong didn't bother. He said himself it was all or nothing.
But that's bike racing. It happens. And it doesn't diminish Vinokourov's win at all; he made the perfect move given the circumstances and it paid off. That's why I love one-day races; no matter who's the strongest, you just never know.
"Kyle Legate" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
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Oscar Mannheim said:
"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> skrev i meddelandet "]news:[email hidden]...
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I'm convinced you're correct. In the heat of a moment like that you don't have cagey thoughts, just nice simple one's like, "that [censored] isn't going to do me a third time."
Come on, give Armstrong a little credit. He just chased the strongest riders, he followed every move from Boogerd and Kessler. It's just that simple.
But he didn't chase the strongest rider. If the Lance tifosi think it was
a
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tactical error and he was was simply playing to screw over BoogerD, he should have at least placed second.
Boogerd beat Armstrong _once_ in Amstel Gold - the other time Dekker beat Armstrong, even though Dekker did most of the work.
Well, a lot of work for sure. I was going to write how he bridged a 1 minute gap to LA and (?) but then I decided to look it up: cyclingnews.comresults.shtmlOpen ↗
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Perhaps the fact that A-G came a week earlier means that Armstrong was not in top form. Let's see what he does in L-B-L.
That's certainly what he himself said in a pre-race interview.
Did you see Boogerd trying to win? If he had been he would have followed Vinokourov.
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Boogerd did go after Vinokourov (didn't you see the race?). The problem was that Boogerd was alone, Vinokourov benefited from being part of the strongest team for the day, Telekom.
No he didn't see the race (nor did I). Don't forget that on the west side of the pond, there is not live coverage of most races (excepting grand tours on OLN cable, which started only a few years ago; they'll show an hour of Amstel on Thursday.) But hey, that never stops Koach K.
