Armstrong is the Greatest Ever

On 28 Jul 2004 13:22:52 -0700, [email hidden] (K. J.

Papai) said:

Lance Armstrong is this best Tour de France racer ever. He won six
which makes him undisputedly the greatest.

At the VERY LEAST he is the best since Bernard Hinault 1985-86 when
Bernard and LeMond contested the wins.

I could easily say Lance is the best Grand Tour racer of the past 20
years since if he wanted to, he could've been winning the Giro or the
Vuelta. I'll wait until 2005 and see what he does about those.

How can you say that until it happens? Do you really think
that Armstrong could have pulled off a double?

Indurain won 7 GTs, and a few other significant races.
Hinault won 10 GTs, and many other significant races.
Merckx won 11 GTs and almost every other significant race.
Anquetil won 8 GTs and quite a few other significant races.
Armstrong has won 6 GTs and very few other significant
races.

When Armstrong wins 3-4 more GTs (hopefully including a Giro
and Vuelta in there), then you might be able to say he is
the best GT rider (or at least in the top 3).

Quoted message said:

You cannot accurately compare pro racers of 2004 with 1984 and
certainly not with 1974.

Therefore you can only say that Armstrong is the best Tour
de France Rider of the current generation. Anything more is
speculation and conjecture. To go strictly by records,
Armstrong's overall record does not stand up against any of
the other big GT riders, nor many all-round riders like Sean
Kelly. I hope he tries to win some other races now to round
out his palmares, but right now even Indurain has a better
overall record.

Quoted message said:

When you say Merckx and Coppi and Hinault, you also can easily add
Armstrong to that trio.

????

Quoted message said:

-Ken

Be sure to wash your hands now, Ken.

steve

Wash your hands of what ? Have you looked at yours? Maybe you should?
"steve robertson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 28 Jul 2004 13:22:52 -0700, [email hidden] (K. J.

Papai) said:

Lance Armstrong is this best Tour de France racer ever. He won six
which makes him undisputedly the greatest.

At the VERY LEAST he is the best since Bernard Hinault 1985-86 when
Bernard and LeMond contested the wins.

I could easily say Lance is the best Grand Tour racer of the past 20
years since if he wanted to, he could've been winning the Giro or the
Vuelta. I'll wait until 2005 and see what he does about those.

How can you say that until it happens? Do you really think
that Armstrong could have pulled off a double?

Indurain won 7 GTs, and a few other significant races.
Hinault won 10 GTs, and many other significant races.
Merckx won 11 GTs and almost every other significant race.
Anquetil won 8 GTs and quite a few other significant races.
Armstrong has won 6 GTs and very few other significant
races.

When Armstrong wins 3-4 more GTs (hopefully including a Giro
and Vuelta in there), then you might be able to say he is
the best GT rider (or at least in the top 3).

Quoted message said:

You cannot accurately compare pro racers of 2004 with 1984 and
certainly not with 1974.

Therefore you can only say that Armstrong is the best Tour
de France Rider of the current generation. Anything more is
speculation and conjecture. To go strictly by records,
Armstrong's overall record does not stand up against any of
the other big GT riders, nor many all-round riders like Sean
Kelly. I hope he tries to win some other races now to round
out his palmares, but right now even Indurain has a better
overall record.

Quoted message said:

When you say Merckx and Coppi and Hinault, you also can easily add
Armstrong to that trio.

????

Quoted message said:

-Ken

Be sure to wash your hands now, Ken.

steve

steve robertson said:

Indurain won 7 GTs, and a few other significant races.

[other riders snipped]

Quoted message said:

Armstrong has won 6 GTs and very few other significant
races.

Apart from grand tours, I don't think you can rate Indurain higher
than Armstrong. They are close and good arguments could be made
either way about them.

JT

"steve robertson" <[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When you say Merckx and Coppi and Hinault, you also can easily add
Armstrong to that trio.

????

Quoted message said:

-Ken

Be sure to wash your hands now, Ken.

What is that supposed to mean? Inside joke or something?

Quoted message said:

steve

"K. J. Papai" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Lance Armstrong is this best Tour de France racer ever. He won six
which makes him undisputedly the greatest.

At the VERY LEAST he is the best since Bernard Hinault 1985-86 when
Bernard and LeMond contested the wins.

No - there was Indurain.

Quoted message said:

I could easily say Lance is the best Grand Tour racer of the past 20
years since if he wanted to, he could've been winning the Giro or the
Vuelta. I'll wait until 2005 and see what he does about those.

"could've"? No - then he would have. As you said in the opening - he is
the greatest TDF racer. That is all.

Quoted message said:

You cannot accurately compare pro racers of 2004 with 1984 and
certainly not with 1974. For one thing dope testing is 100 times more
rigorous and accurate than 10 or t20 years ago so it's harder to
cheat. Also cheating carries a heavier penalty now - both
psychological and monetarily. Pros make a lot more money now than
ever. How many pros made $100,000/year before 1985? The equivalent
today would be like $350,000. There are 30 or 40 guys who make that
much. The depth of talent is so long now that to win you must excel
like no other. Anyone who has ever raced a bike knows how difficult it
is even at the rank amateur levels.

right, you can't compare, so why did you start?

Quoted message said:

Lance overcame extreme cancer in 1997 to race again in 1998, helped
along greatly by Bob Roll, Paul Sherwen, Carmichael, and US Postal
among others. He then kicked ass in the 1999 Tour and the rest is
history and soon to be legend. His current victory in 2004 included
five individual stage wins for this champion. He helped gain his team
a second consecutive win at the TTT - oh yes, he does inspire the best
too to do their best.

Lance trains and focuses for the Tour like no one ever has. He studies
the route, does his homework and knows the competition. He plans his
team - US Postal is his team - and they in turn deliver since they
know Lance can be counted on 100%.

I doubt there has ever been an athlete in the history of sport to come
back from as deep an adversity as Lance has faced and then be the best
at the most grueling of sports while taking copious amounts of time
from his schedule to inspire others -- ordinary people in their
sickness, suffering and disease. BUT YET there are still the naysayers
who hound him; the haters who will do anything, including lying and
false accusations, to attempt to bring him down. THE WEAKNESS of those
people! The unmitigated gall!

Um, LeMond was almost killed in a hunting accident. Well, for some, the
reason he is not liked so much is his personality. Many people have a
strong reaction against him because of his adoring fans who fawn over him
like a god. He is not the best and is not even close.

Quoted message said:

When you say Merckx and Coppi and Hinault, you also can easily add
Armstrong to that trio.

Not me, but feel free to do it yourself.

Quoted message said:

-Ken

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

steve robertson said:

Indurain won 7 GTs, and a few other significant races.

[other riders snipped]

Quoted message said:

Armstrong has won 6 GTs and very few other significant
races.

Apart from grand tours, I don't think you can rate Indurain higher
than Armstrong. They are close and good arguments could be made
either way about them.

JT

I also think that they are close (apart from GTs, as you
say). You cannot discount that Indurain did a double twice
(shades of Tim Horton's). But not many people give Indurain
the credit he is due for riding many different races, and
winning many different ways.

Otherwise, Indurain won Paris-Nice twice, World
Championships, Olympic Games, and had the World Hour Record.
Armstrong won Fleche Wallone and Indurain did not. In 2.HC
they are pretty well even.

But, Armstrong is not retired yet and I hope he tries to
expand his palmares like he could.

Ken Papai said:

Quoted message said:

Be sure to wash your hands now, Ken.

What is that supposed to mean? Inside joke or something?

Yeah, and you know exactly what it means.

Hank Sniadoch said:

Wash your hands of what ? Have you looked at yours? Maybe you should?

Is your keyboard stuck on a question mark? Do you have a
point? I will not use the interogative in a statement as
you did.

By the way, my hands are clean, although there is a lot of
chalk under the fingernails, and scars all over. The
injuries are from rock climbing, not masturbating to a bike
rider.

Ken Papai said:

"steve robertson" <[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When you say Merckx and Coppi and Hinault, you also can easily add
Armstrong to that trio.

????

Quoted message said:

-Ken

Be sure to wash your hands now, Ken.

What is that supposed to mean? Inside [your pants] joke or something?

"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message
de :
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

steve robertson said:

Indurain won 7 GTs, and a few other significant races.

[other riders snipped]

Quoted message said:

Armstrong has won 6 GTs and very few other significant
races.

Apart from grand tours, I don't think you can rate Indurain higher
than Armstrong. They are close and good arguments could be made
either way about them.

JT

I think you can rate Armstrong at least a hundred times more powerful in his
desire for and savvy with commercial exploitation of his attempt at a sixth
TdF win. He also has a feverishly nationalistic homeland that is more
obsessed with records. I think a big difference is how they appreciate
winning : Mig quite simply enjoyed winning, worked hard at achieving it,
too. Armstrong, as I see it, relishes in vanquishing others, in a more
hostile way - the "in your face" approach I see as similar to NBA games.
Each approach has its fans, and I guess it is up to each to decide which is
more attractive.
--
Bonne route,

Sandy
Paris FR

"SMMB" wrote...

Quoted message said:

[Armstrong] also has a feverishly nationalistic homeland that is more
obsessed with records.

Here, folks, is an example of a neutrally worded, factual statement,
objectively set forth, for all the world to see.

JF

Quoted message said:

When you say Merckx and Coppi and Hinault, you also can easily add
Armstrong to that trio.

-Ken

You're an idiot.

Kenny

Jimmy -

Thanks for being so perceptive !!

--
Bonne route,

Sandy
Paris FR

"Jim Flom" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de :
news:xC0Oc.55648$2i3.35756@clgrps12...

Quoted message said:

"SMMB" wrote...

Quoted message said:

[Armstrong] also has a feverishly nationalistic homeland that is more
obsessed with records.

Here, folks, is an example of a neutrally worded, factual statement,
objectively set forth, for all the world to see.

JF

"steve robertson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

steve robertson said:

Indurain won 7 GTs, and a few other significant races.

[other riders snipped]

Quoted message said:

Armstrong has won 6 GTs and very few other significant
races.

Apart from grand tours, I don't think you can rate Indurain higher
than Armstrong. They are close and good arguments could be made
either way about them.

JT

I also think that they are close (apart from GTs, as you
say). You cannot discount that Indurain did a double twice
(shades of Tim Horton's). But not many people give Indurain
the credit he is due for riding many different races, and
winning many different ways.

Otherwise, Indurain won Paris-Nice twice, World
Championships, Olympic Games, and had the World Hour Record.

Indurain never had the World Hour Record. He failed twice (in 1993?) IIRC.

Quoted message said:

Armstrong won Fleche Wallone and Indurain did not. In 2.HC
they are pretty well even.

But, Armstrong is not retired yet and I hope he tries to
expand his palmares like he could.

We don't know what anyone can or can't do until it happens. Indurain looked
like the first 6 time winner up until the second week of his failed attempt.

[email hidden] (Kenny) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When you say Merckx and Coppi and Hinault, you also can easily add
Armstrong to that trio.

-Ken

You're an idiot.
Kenny

Because...
Because you either rank Lance #1 in that group or far below that group?

Thanks for the reasoned, informed, insider-type reply,
Ken

"Jim Flom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:xC0Oc.55648$2i3.35756@clgrps12...

Quoted message said:

"SMMB" wrote...

Quoted message said:

[Armstrong] also has a feverishly nationalistic homeland that is more
obsessed with records.

Here, folks, is an example of a neutrally worded, factual statement,
objectively set forth, for all the world to see.

JF

There are no facts in that statement except that it is a fact that those
words were used to state an opinion.

"Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Otherwise, Indurain won Paris-Nice twice, World
Championships, Olympic Games, and had the World Hour Record.

Indurain never had the World Hour Record. He failed twice (in 1993?) IIRC.

25 Oct 1972 Eddy Merckx Mexico City 49.431
19 Jan 1984 Francesco Moser Mexico City 50.808
23 Jan 1984 Francesco Moser Mexico City 51.151
17 Jul 1993 Graeme Obree Hamar, Norway 51.596
23 Jul 1993 Chris Boardman Velodrome du Lac, Bordeaux 52.270
27 Apr 1994 Graeme Obree Velodrome du Lac, Bordeaux 52.713

02 Sep 1994 Miguel Indurain Velodrome du Lac, Bordeaux 53.040

22 Oct 1994 Toni Rominger Velodrome du Lac, Bordeaux 53.832
05 Nov 1994 Toni Rominger Velodrome du Lac, Bordeaux 55.291
07 Sep 1996 Chris Boardman Manchester, UK 56.375

K. J. Papai said:

[email hidden] (Kenny) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When you say Merckx and Coppi and Hinault, you also can easily add
Armstrong to that trio.

-Ken

You're an idiot.
Kenny

Because...
Because you either rank Lance #1 in that group or far below that
group?

Personally, I didn't think it needed any clarification.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When you say Merckx and Coppi and Hinault, you also can easily add

Armstrong to that trio.
<<
You're joking right?

I don't even need to mention Merckx but for your info here are some of
Hinault's and Coppi's accomplishments:

TDF wins: 5
Vuelta wins: 2
Giro: 3
World Champion: 1
Dauphine: 4
LBL: 3
Paris Roubaix: 1
Fleche Wallone: 3
and countless other wins

Here are some of Coppi's winsL
TDF wins:2
Giro: 5
World Hour Record
Track World Pursuit Champion
Paris Roubaix: 1
Milan San Remo: 3
Giro de Lombardia: 4
and countless other wins.

How the hell can you even rank Armstrong with these great cyclists?
You must be drunk!

[email hidden] (K. J. Papai) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Lance Armstrong is this best Tour de France racer ever. He won six
which makes him undisputedly the greatest.

At the VERY LEAST he is the best since Bernard Hinault 1985-86 when
Bernard and LeMond contested the wins.

I could easily say Lance is the best Grand Tour racer of the past 20
years since if he wanted to, he could've been winning the Giro or the
Vuelta. I'll wait until 2005 and see what he does about those.

You cannot accurately compare pro racers of 2004 with 1984 and
certainly not with 1974. For one thing dope testing is 100 times more
rigorous and accurate than 10 or t20 years ago so it's harder to
cheat. Also cheating carries a heavier penalty now ? both
psychological and monetarily. Pros make a lot more money now than
ever. How many pros made $100,000/year before 1985? The equivalent
today would be like $350,000. There are 30 or 40 guys who make that
much. The depth of talent is so long now that to win you must excel
like no other. Anyone who has ever raced a bike knows how difficult it
is even at the rank amateur levels.

Lance overcame extreme cancer in 1997 to race again in 1998, helped
along greatly by Bob Roll, Paul Sherwen, Carmichael, and US Postal
among others. He then kicked ass in the 1999 Tour and the rest is
history and soon to be legend. His current victory in 2004 included
five individual stage wins for this champion. He helped gain his team
a second consecutive win at the TTT ? oh yes, he does inspire the best
too to do their best.

Lance trains and focuses for the Tour like no one ever has. He studies
the route, does his homework and knows the competition. He plans his
team ? US Postal is his team ? and they in turn deliver since they
know Lance can be counted on 100%.

I doubt there has ever been an athlete in the history of sport to come
back from as deep an adversity as Lance has faced and then be the best
at the most grueling of sports while taking copious amounts of time
from his schedule to inspire others -- ordinary people in their
sickness, suffering and disease. BUT YET there are still the naysayers
who hound him; the haters who will do anything, including lying and
false accusations, to attempt to bring him down. THE WEAKNESS of those
people! The unmitigated gall!

When you say Merckx and Coppi and Hinault, you also can easily add
Armstrong to that trio.

-Ken