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Armstrong doped?

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Professional Cycling
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23 June 2006
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25 June 2006
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cyclingheroes
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  1. bobke -- Yes, I agree. It's clear LA is right. But LA's statement on Le Monde article provides further support (even more, on top of already convincing arguments I have described above):

    1. It is crazy that the doctor would only have asked about LA's history of using drugs three days after invasive brain sugery, which is when Ms. Andreu alleges the conversation took place:

    "In addition to sworn testimony to the contrary by others present, the panel (and the insurance company) were provided certified copies of all medical records by the Indiana cancer hospital. While any suggestion that medical professionals did not take my medical history until three days after conducting extensive brain surgery is, on its face, preposterous, it is inconceivable that the records, which contain a description of every interaction with me, would not reflect such a critical response. There is no suggestion of either such a question or response in over 20 medical histories recorded among the 280 pages of records compiled during my hospital stay. My doctor, one of the premier cancer specialists in the country, also testified no such statement was made by me to him and a statement made to another would have to appear in the records. It's not there because it never happened."

    Also, LA of course naturally points to the absence of any such statement in the voluminous medical records that exist.

    2. Andreus Don't Remember Much Else, but the alleged LA statements

    "Mr. and Mrs. Andreu stated that they left the room right after the statement, could remember no other questions asked before or after, no details of who I was allegedly talking to, whether men or women, whether doctors or residents, or why I would have been asked this information in front of 10 people, including my mother, in a TV room watching the Dallas Cowboys play football on a Sunday afternoon."

    3. Arbitrators between insurers and LA didn't give credence to Ms Andreu's allegations

    "After years of litigation and three weeks of trial, and " having considered the evidence and testimony" the panel ordered the insurance company to pay, not the $5mm owed, but that $5mm and an additional $2.5mm, which confirms the baseless nature of the accusations. The allegations were rejected. It's over. We won. They lost. I was yet again completely vindicated"

    Now it is learned that the insurance company paid LA an extra $2.5M in penalties for having challenged his entitlement to the basic $5M performance bonus. LA deserves every cent of the $7.5M total insurance pay-out and penalty he got from the insurance company.

    Little Twist
    And then LA also insinuates that D Pound may have released documents after being blistered by the Vrijnman report:

    "We have instituted proceedings to determine who did so; ironically, but predictably, our investigation to date has revealed that the only person to whom documents have been provided by any trial participant is Richard Pound of WADA. It is indeed coincidental that the documents provided to the press surfaced shortly after the independent investigator from the UCI released his report which exonerated me and was sharply critical of Mr. Pound's conduct."

  2. bobke said:

    Frankie and his wife testified under oath.
    So did the Oakley Respresentative also in the room who denied it.
    So did Lance who denied it.
    The insurance company LOST.
    They already paid the 6 million or whatever.
    Case closed.

    Even IF, even IF Lance used PEDs before 1996, it had no impact on the case about settling the insurance debt although some would say in may have.
    This is yet one more instance of public character assassination.
    Interesting how the press keeps reporting Lemonde et al that Arsmtorng finaky admiited he did use.

    He did not admit using PEDs and denied it under oath.

    Asked why Kathy Andreu would testify she heard him say all those things Lance said under oath in deposition "Probably because she hates my guts."
    Now THAT has the ring of truth about it.

    Frankie had been one of the big boys with Lance, would have medalled in the Olympic games 96 had he not been asked to wait for Lance who couldnt get it done because he was already sick with cancer, Lance took him to Cofidis, he came back to Postal and Lance dumped him becasue he could not do well in the TTT and could not get over the mountains. Pure and simple, the wife hates Lance.

    ........so Mrs Andreu hates Armstrong, L'Equipe hates Armstrong, Greg LeMond hates Armstrong, David Walsh hates Armstrong, Emma O'Reilly hates Armstrong.............................

    An amazing haphazard confluence (not).

  3. Well, look how many people on this forum hate LA and they don't even know him or have interacted with him. Isn't that a "slam dunk" counterargument to L's question? Look how much L hates LA without even been in regular contact (or any contact I can tell) with LA! 😄

    Frankie Andreu has conveniently taken down his website ("under construction" now). It was up and running earlier today. What does he have to hide!

  4. rocko said:

    This probably explains his decision announced yesterday not to attend the Tour this year with the Disco crew. You could say it makes him look guilty but he's probably just had enough of it all now. I don't care if he doped or not becuase let's face it you couldn't have competed in a Grand Tour then (and maybe still couldn't today) without artificial help of some kind. Anyone who thinks otherwise is dafter than [censored] Pound.

    Armstrong wasn't accredited by the ASO/TDF to attend the TDF.

    Of course he can attend as a spectator but unlike other past champions he has not been invited to attend.
    ASO/TDF always invite their past champions/riders to attend and to work at the TDF.

    I cited earlier the example of Indurain : he retired in December 1996 and he was presented the jersey to the Prologue winner of the 1997 TDf (prologue being the first event of the TDF), Chris Boardman at Rouen.
    Greg LeMond was plagued to attend the TDF when he retired.

  5. So what? He has still won the race seven consecutive times!

    As for JU, I doubt he will win this year, despite LA's retirement. How frustrating it would be for JU to not only be beaten by LA, but also Basso. Err, I guess JU was beaten by Basso last year in GC too, obviously. :p And the year before that!

  6. musette said:

    The contemporaneous notes and medical records confirm LA's position.

    Also, LAF funds many cancer-related areas. To say that a doctor, who is subject to ethical and professional requirements, would risk perjury by providing a sworn statement based on a small amount of funding relative to an institution's total funding is just bizarre.

    Has anybody asked why it is apparently only the Andreus that are stating this, if there were ten people in the room and some were doctors whose notes are completely silent on this issue? A doctor would be derelict in his professional obligations if a patient had admitted to extensive drug use and the doctor had not recorded it. Separately from the contemporaneous notes, the doctor doesn't remember LA having told him that and that is the type of thing that, if it did occur, the doctor said he would "vividly" recall.

    A history of as extensive drug use as Ms. Andreu contends was mentioned by LA would also be potentially relevant to the treatment of LA and assisting him to recover. So, not including that in contemporaneous notes would have been a meaningful omission and would be abnormal practice in the medical profession.

    It's not only the Andreu's who have stated that Armstrong used PED.

    You really should read LA Confiedentiel : there are several witnesses who state that Armstrong doped.
    We still await Mr Armstrong's appearance in a French court to defend what he alleges is libel and defamatory.

  7. musette said:

    bobke Little Twist
    And then LA also insinuates that D Pound may have released documents after being blistered by the Vrijnman report:

    "We have instituted proceedings to determine who did so; ironically, but predictably, our investigation to date has revealed that the only person to whom documents have been provided by any trial participant is Richard Pound of WADA. It is indeed coincidental that the documents provided to the press surfaced shortly after the independent investigator from the UCI released his report which exonerated me and was sharply critical of Mr. Pound's conduct."


    There may be something to this. Do these back and forth stories not have hidden benefactors?
    I also read at Tuttobiciweb.com that tomorrow there will be an expansion by the French magazine that broke the story. Some additional supports for their claims. Supposedly a threat by LA against Greg LeMond, and a payoff to avoid an antidoping control.

  8. musette said:

    Well, look how many people on this forum hate LA and they don't even know him or have interacted with him.

    How do you know that no one has here has interacted with Armstrong, or any of the parties who claim that Armstrong doped?
    You don't know.

    musette said:

    Look how much L hates LA without even been in regular contact (or any contact I can tell) with LA!

    I don't hate Armstrong.
    I don't know the man personally.

    I do oppose his false claims.
    He's a fraud.

    musette said:

    Frankie Andreu has conveniently taken down his website ("under construction" now). It was up and running earlier today. What does he have to hide!

    Maybe he doesn't want to be pestered by trolls like you.

  9. ilpirata said:

    There may be something to this. Do these back and forth stories not have hidden benefactors?
    I also read at Tuttobiciweb.com that tomorrow there will be an expansion by the French magazine that broke the story. Some additional supports for their claims. Supposedly a threat by LA against Greg LeMond, and a payoff to avoid an antidoping control.

    I can tell you what the LeMond story will be.

    It will tell of the call that Armstrong made threatening 3 times TDF winner Greg LeMond.
    Armstrong threatened LeMond with statements about his (LeMonds) alleged doping.
    Needless to say Greg told Armstrong where to go.

    This is a recurrent pattern with Armstrong and people working for Armstrong.

    I can tell you that people claiming to acting on Armstrong's behalf have phoned witnesses who made statements detailed in LA Confidentiel.
    I can state this as fact.

    The persons concerned contacted the relevant authorities and the person who received the call made a formal complaint to the civil authorities from where the call originated.

    This matter is on going.

  10. This all just sour grapes.

    People just always want to pull down those on top...thats just how it is.

    In Europe they just loved Virenque and Pantani and a host of other confirmed dopers But they spit on LA.

    No secret that the french press has always hated Armstrong....can't have a yank dominating their sacred race.

  11. Virenque cheated.
    Virenque admitted his guilt.

    Greg LeMond is widely respected by cycling fans everywhere.
    You'd think that he'd be despised having beaten the greatest ever French rider (Hinault) in their own race (TDF) by a Yank (as you put it).
    Greg isn't despised.

  12. limerickman said:

    Virenque cheated.
    Virenque admitted his guilt.

    Yet they still love him...not spit on him.

    Greg LeMond is widely respected by cycling fans everywhere.
    You'd think that he'd be despised having beaten the greatest ever French rider (Hinault) in their own race (TDF) by a Yank (as you put it).
    Greg isn't despised.

    Not sure sure how much Hinault thinks of him or the french after their interteam arguments. I know Lemond has had it out for Armstong since he exceeded his 3 tour championships.

    Are you saying you despise LA?...that sounds close to hate to me.

    Also Lemond won 3 TDF's ...not 7 hence the reason they didn't target him....something tells me they would have if he threaten their records.

  13. Who really gives a damn. Drugs or no drugs he still pedaled the bike. People think that cycling is bad for drugs well most lower catergories in cycling perhaps even some elites do not dope. That is not bad, go down town to your local gym. There will be guys pumping away on the iron with steroidy zits on their backs getting big for the weekends session of trying to pull girls. These people do not even have a reason to do it apart from trying to get laid, now thats sad. What about the Mr olympia , these guys are freaks , and it isnt all good quality meals😉 . Well they get round the drug testing and these guys stack growth hormone and steroids in an attempt to just maintain their muscle when dieting for a show. I would say if armstrong doped then every one that was within ten mins of his time was doped , than less they were genectical freaks:p i don't think so. I know guys that have and do dope, its their risk , their life , so what. Cheers

  14. MikefrMd said:

    Not sure sure how much Hinault thinks of him or the french after their interteam arguments. I know Lemond has had it out for Armstong since he exceeded his 3 tour championships.

    Are you saying you despise LA?...that sounds close to hate to me

    You said that the French press hated Armstrong because he's a yank and he won their race (TDF) but turned a blind eye to Virenque/Pantani.

    Well another Yank won their race and beat their greatest champion - and he's not despised.
    That's all I'm saying.

  15. limerickman said:

    You said that the French press hated Armstrong because he's a yank and he won their race (TDF) but turned a blind eye to Virenque/Pantani.

    Well another Yank won their race and beat their greatest champion - and he's not despised.
    That's all I'm saying.

    But he didn't threaten their precious record....LA blew it apart...thats why the resentment.

    Maybe we can agree to disagree on this one :-)

  16. i think armstrong's arrogance makes it real hard to believe him.

    "call me a doper???!??!? i'll come back and win again..."

    nobody will question basso or ullrich because when they win they say stuff like "it was tough. my team helped me out a lot." etc.

    i think if he wasn't such a jerk to everyone, then maybe people would leave him alone.

    you reap what you sow.

  17. MikefrMd said:

    Maybe we can agree to disagree on this one :-)

    That's the best suggestion so far !

  18. musette said:

    Well, look how many people on this forum hate LA and they don't even know him or have interacted with him. Isn't that a "slam dunk" counterargument to L's question? Look how much L hates LA without even been in regular contact (or any contact I can tell) with LA! 😄

    !

    Then I would suggest to you never ever to write another word about JU because you seem to have an opinion about everything from his childhoold difficulties to his weight...

  19. limerickman said:

    Virenque cheated.
    Virenque admitted his guilt.

    Greg LeMond is widely respected by cycling fans everywhere.
    You'd think that he'd be despised having beaten the greatest ever French rider (Hinault) in their own race (TDF) by a Yank (as you put it).
    Greg isn't despised.


    Virenque admitted his guilt AFTER he was caught, correct?

    I suspect that Armstrong is just as widely respected as Lemond by "cycling fans everywhere".

    I still stand by what I've said before. As of yet, there is no definitive proof..only "stories". It's apparent that the general belief is that MOST, if not all professional cyclists dope to one degree or another. If that's the case, then what difference does it make in the first place? IF Lance doped, then he merely rode away with 7 TDF's ahead of a whole peloton of dopers.

    I don't believe the root of some people's dislike of Armstrong has anything to do with his alleged doping. It's more a measure of what they think about him as a person, and in some cases they're just fans of other riders and taking shots at him.

    If that were not true, then why not have the number of "guilty" posts for all the other riders caught? Both current and in the past? Why do we not have several threads regarding Basso attempting to sell a stage to Simoeni? That's just as deplorable as doping in my opinion. I'm not saying I believe that happened, but there's just as much reliable proof (stories) of that as of Armstrong doping.

    Maybe he did, and maybe he didn't... but noone here knows whether he doped or not. The thing we do know is that he battled back from severe cancer and won 7 consecutive TDF's. That's a very admirable accomplishment regardless of doping... ESPECIALLY if doping is as common as most people think.

    I sit here reading these threads out of curiosity, and even sometimes ask some questions or express some opinions. The common thing I see from both sides of the issue (the extreme sides) are people bending facts, or interpreting them in such a way as to justify their own beliefs.

    The man was a great cyclist, that can't be disputed. He's retired now, that also can't be disputed. I say give it (and him) a rest. If there are still facts to come out, I'm sure we'll all hear them.

    In the meantime, there are riders such as Basso, JU, Vino, LL, etc. that are still looking to attain that level of greatness (although they're already great). It's much more interesting to see which one will. Then at least we can have a different set of "fans" accusing someone else of doping for a change.

  20. DV1976 said:

    Then I would suggest to you never ever to write another word about JU because you seem to have an opinion about everything from his childhoold difficulties to his weight...

    First of all, criticism of a cyclist does not amount to hatred. Hatred requires something irrational -- an inability to reason when the cyclist is concerned that one sometimes sees with respect to LA in this forum.

    It's obvious to all that JU has/had weight problems. That is not hatred. That is normal observation of pictures and taking into account what other cyclists, DSs and people observe about JU. Look at the photos of JU earlier this season, and compare them to other historical pictures of JU. It does not take a hating person or a genius to see he had weight issues. In fact, it takes a blind or ignorant person not to notice the difference!

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