Armstrong and Ullrich have both gotten worse



On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 20:28:57 GMT, "HardwareLust" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Considering how hard tomorrow is, there's no doubt in my mind he let Basso
>have the stage. Remember, Basso and Lance are friends off the bike, so it's
>not totally outside the realm of reason that Lance let his good friend Ivan
>have the stage, which incidentally was his first ever TdF stage win.

Nevertheless, Lance shouldn't tell everyone that he let Basso win.
It's enough that they both know it. It just cheapens the win for
Basso and makes Lance look bad.

I think Basso helped Lance today. I doubt he would have gained so
much time without Basso pushing him on.

It seemed that Ullrich had trouble with the temperature changes.
First hot, then cold in the rain and then hot again. Don't count out
Jan just yet. Once he gets that huge motor of his running he is
capable of taking time back.

I also read that Ullrich has lost 14 pounds since April. Obviously,
14 less pounds to drag up the mountains is an advantage but to loose
over a pound a week in the three months before the start of the Tour
can leave you weak.

All credit is due to Voeckler. What a brave performance. He's got an
unorthodox way of climbing hills, but the results were fantastic. I
hope he holds on to yellow tomorrow. I doubt it because he really
looked spent today, but you never know.

I was annoyed when OLN took a commercial break before the contenders
crossed the line. The time gaps are so important and it would have
been so much better to have watched the seconds ticking off live.
 
Jack Hollis wrote:
> I was annoyed when OLN took a commercial break before the contenders
> crossed the line. The time gaps are so important and it would have
> been so much better to have watched the seconds ticking off live.

I would have been too, BUT:
Last year or two, OLN had a paying "commercial-free half hour" sponsor
for the finish. This year, no sponsor, but they did go a long way
between breaks up until Armstrong/Basso crossed the line today.

Don't know how long it was w/o commercials today, but it was clear to me
they had a lot of skipped commercials to fit back in after the finish.
All told, better this way than the standard 2 minutes of commercials
every 7 minutes, regardless of what's happening in the stage.

Mark Janeba
 
Dolfy wrote:

> Tim Lines <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>I don't side with the Lance bashers but it's hard for me to put a classy
>>spin on this. Sometimes Lance says stupid ****. Actually, most of us
>>do sometimes. At least when I do it, it doesn't get reported and spread
>>worldwide.
>
>
> I bit ironie in this posting on Usenet... :)
>

Hmmmm, I thought Usenet had an irony filter...

--

--------------------

Remove CLOTHES to reply
 
> > Ever think Lance might not want to win the stage? That comes with more
> > press
> > harassment, less sleep, etc. I think he held back waiting instead to
> > unleash
> > HELL on everyone.
>
> If so he sacrificed a 20 second bonus...and he isnt the type to miss taking

Not.

Lance got a bonus (12 s.?) for finishing 2nd, so really he threw away
just about 8 seconds to Basso and the rest of the field.
I have not seen the final 10K yet, so I cannot say whether
Lance "gave it away" or not. I'll tell you all later tonight.

Stay tuned please.
-Ken

> an advantage. If he had the strength to take basso at the line, I think he
> would have done so.
 
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:25:52 GMT, Dan Connelly
<d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g> wrote:

>Keith wrote:
>> . Kloden is an excellent ITT racer too...
>>
>
>Examples?

Winner of the Col d'Eze ITT in Paris-Nice 2000

>
>Dan
 
"Tim Lines" wrote...
>
> I don't side with the Lance bashers but it's hard for me to put a classy
> spin on this. Sometimes Lance says stupid ****. Actually, most of us
> do sometimes. At least when I do it, it doesn't get reported and spread
> worldwide.

It would have been classy for Lance to put it this way: "It was a great win
today for Basso. He deserved it."
 
K. J. Papai wrote:
>>>Ever think Lance might not want to win the stage? That comes with more
>>>press
>>>harassment, less sleep, etc. I think he held back waiting instead to
>>>unleash
>>>HELL on everyone.
>>
>>If so he sacrificed a 20 second bonus...and he isnt the type to miss taking
>
>
> Not.
>
> Lance got a bonus (12 s.?) for finishing 2nd, so really he threw away
> just about 8 seconds to Basso and the rest of the field.
> I have not seen the final 10K yet, so I cannot say whether
> Lance "gave it away" or not. I'll tell you all later tonight.
>

No. Lance's loss was Basso's gain. He gave up 16 seconds to Basso.

Dan
 
"Jim Flom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:Ve%Jc.48961$Rf.47397@edtnps84...
> "Tim Lines" wrote...
> >
> > I don't side with the Lance bashers but it's hard for me to put a classy
> > spin on this. Sometimes Lance says stupid ****. Actually, most of us
> > do sometimes. At least when I do it, it doesn't get reported and spread
> > worldwide.
>
> It would have been classy for Lance to put it this way: "It was a great
win
> today for Basso. He deserved it."
>
It was pretty tactless. It's as if he thinks he owns the race and anyone who
wins, is just lucky. It's like he believes it really IS the tour de lance.

Mind you,when Virenque won the Ventoux I remember LA being more gracious,
even though he was obviously hoping to finally win the Ventoux. He said
something like "anyone who goes out and suffers like that for two hours
deserves to win." Wasn't that a great stage, though?

Speaking of which, watch for "the japanese mask", as I refer to the face of
suffering. You know those ancient japanese masks, with the grimace and the
down-turned mouth? (I believe it's some shinto god, my knowledge of that
area is scanty). You often see that in the suffering faces in the mountains,
and think, boy, I'm glad it's THEM-uggh. Amazingly enough, Virenque showed
very little sign of it yesterday. I think with 5 mountain passes you'll see
more of those Japanese masks tomorrow.
 
Jim Flom wrote:
> "Tim Lines" wrote...
>
>>I don't side with the Lance bashers but it's hard for me to put a classy
>>spin on this. Sometimes Lance says stupid ****. Actually, most of us
>>do sometimes. At least when I do it, it doesn't get reported and spread
>>worldwide.
>
>
> It would have been classy for Lance to put it this way: "It was a great win
> today for Basso. He deserved it."
>
>
Well said.

--

--------------------

Remove CLOTHES to reply
 
"Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> K. J. Papai wrote:
> >>>Ever think Lance might not want to win the stage? That comes with more
> >>>press
> >>>harassment, less sleep, etc. I think he held back waiting instead to
> >>>unleash
> >>>HELL on everyone.
> >>
> >>If so he sacrificed a 20 second bonus...and he isnt the type to miss taking
> >
> >
> > Not.
> >
> > Lance got a bonus (12 s.?) for finishing 2nd, so really he threw away
> > just about 8 seconds to Basso and the rest of the field.
> > I have not seen the final 10K yet, so I cannot say whether
> > Lance "gave it away" or not. I'll tell you all later tonight.
> >
>
> No. Lance's loss was Basso's gain. He gave up 16 seconds to Basso.
>
> Dan

8 seconds.

M.
 
Michael wrote:
> "Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>K. J. Papai wrote:
>>
>>>>>Ever think Lance might not want to win the stage? That comes with more
>>>>>press
>>>>>harassment, less sleep, etc. I think he held back waiting instead to
>>>>>unleash
>>>>>HELL on everyone.
>>>>
>>>>If so he sacrificed a 20 second bonus...and he isnt the type to miss taking
>>>
>>>
>>>Not.
>>>
>>>Lance got a bonus (12 s.?) for finishing 2nd, so really he threw away
>>>just about 8 seconds to Basso and the rest of the field.
>>>I have not seen the final 10K yet, so I cannot say whether
>>>Lance "gave it away" or not. I'll tell you all later tonight.
>>>
>>
>>No. Lance's loss was Basso's gain. He gave up 16 seconds to Basso.
>>
>>Dan
>
>
> 8 seconds.
16:

Scenerio 1:
Lance : 20 second bonus
Basso : 12 second bonus
net : Lance 8 seconds ahead

Scenerio 2:
Lance : 12 second bonus
Basso : 20 second bonus
net : Lance 8 seconds behind

Difference:
8 seconds ahead - 8 seconds behind = 16 seconds.

Dan
 
Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g> writes:

> >>No. Lance's loss was Basso's gain. He gave up 16 seconds to Basso.
> >>
> >>Dan

> > 8 seconds.

> 16:
>
> Scenerio 1:
> Lance : 20 second bonus
> Basso : 12 second bonus
> net : Lance 8 seconds ahead
>
> Scenerio 2:
> Lance : 12 second bonus
> Basso : 20 second bonus
> net : Lance 8 seconds behind
>
> Difference:
> 8 seconds ahead - 8 seconds behind = 16 seconds.
>
> Dan

Eight. You can't have your cake and eat it too
 
Davey wrote:
> Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g> writes:
>
>
>>>>No. Lance's loss was Basso's gain. He gave up 16 seconds to Basso.
>>>>
>>>>Dan
>
>
>>>8 seconds.
>
>
>>16:
>>
>>Scenerio 1:
>> Lance : 20 second bonus
>> Basso : 12 second bonus
>> net : Lance 8 seconds ahead
>>
>>Scenerio 2:
>> Lance : 12 second bonus
>> Basso : 20 second bonus
>> net : Lance 8 seconds behind
>>
>>Difference:
>> 8 seconds ahead - 8 seconds behind = 16 seconds.
>>
>>Dan
>
>
> Eight. You can't have your cake and eat it too


If Armstrong loses to Basso by 15 seconds, this was the difference.
If he loses by 17 seconds, it was not. This is equivalent to
a 16 second gap.

Dan
 
Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g> writes:

> Davey wrote:
> > Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g> writes:
> >
> >>>>No. Lance's loss was Basso's gain. He gave up 16 seconds to Basso.
> >>>>
> >>>>Dan
> >
> >>>8 seconds.
> >
> >>16:
> >>
> >>Scenerio 1:
> >> Lance : 20 second bonus
> >> Basso : 12 second bonus
> >> net : Lance 8 seconds ahead
> >>
> >>Scenerio 2:
> >> Lance : 12 second bonus
> >> Basso : 20 second bonus
> >> net : Lance 8 seconds behind
> >>
> >>Difference:
> >> 8 seconds ahead - 8 seconds behind = 16 seconds.
> >>
> >>Dan
> > Eight. You can't have your cake and eat it too
>
>
> If Armstrong loses to Basso by 15 seconds, this was the difference.
> If he loses by 17 seconds, it was not. This is equivalent to
> a 16 second gap.
>

Are you sure you aren't a Snake-Oil salesman?

20-12 still makes 8
 
On 17-Jul-2004, Davey [email protected] wrote:

> > If Armstrong loses to Basso by 15 seconds, this was the difference.
> > If he loses by 17 seconds, it was not. This is equivalent to
> > a 16 second gap.
> >
>
> Are you sure you aren't a Snake-Oil salesman?
>
> 20-12 still makes 8

Dan is right regarding Basso only. Your analysis is correct regarding the
rest of the field.

steve
--
"A man was severely injured today in the Knutsford area."

Benny Hill
 
[email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
> "Ivan was the strongest today. I didn't give it to him," said
> Armstrong, who won at La Mongie two years ago.
>
> Lance is a flip-flopper!

That would be an awfully big flip-flop. Perhaps something was lost in
the translation or taken out of context. When Lance supposedly said
that he had allowed Ivan to win the stage, he might have meant that he
didn't fight for first place because he would've lost anyway.

Of course, since there's no such thing as benefit of the doubt in
Usenet, that couldn't possibly be true. :)


- Robert Cook
 
After todays stage I Armstrong will probably sit and look for signs of
weakness from Basso. In other words Lance will ride a defensive tdf
from here on out. That is what Hinault should have done in 1986 after
putting a lot of time on the first mountain stage.
 
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