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Armstrong and Moser criticize Lance

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Road Cycling
Published
19 November 2004
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21 November 2004
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Charles Hizark
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  1. (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/nov04/nov19news)

    "Armstrong is a cannibal, but only at the Tour," said the man
    nicknamed The Cannibal for his ferocious appetite for victory. "If I
    raced with a medicine dropper like him, I'd have won the Tour for at
    least twenty years. I've always criticised Lance because he gives
    little back to cycling."

    Evidently, Italian great Francesco Moser isn't very impressed with
    Armstrong's fifth Velo d'Or, saying, "(For me) Cunego in first place;
    I don't even consider Armstrong, even if he's really great in the
    Tour. If every rider (rode) like him, cycling would have to close up
    shop tomorrow." "

  2. "Charles Hizark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/nov04/nov19news)

    "Armstrong is a cannibal, but only at the Tour," said the man
    nicknamed The Cannibal for his ferocious appetite for victory. "

    I think that the subject header should read Merckx and Moser.

  3. "Frank Drackman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Charles Hizark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/nov04/nov19news)

    "Armstrong is a cannibal, but only at the Tour," said the man
    nicknamed The Cannibal for his ferocious appetite for victory. "

    I think that the subject header should read Merckx and Moser.

    Merckx and Moser are going to tell Armstrong how to win a Tour?

    Let's face it, if Eddy and Franco were racing today they'd be specializing
    just like Lance. In their day they were great but times were different.
    There were only two or three people that had a real shot at winning a Tour
    or a Classic. Times have changed and natural talent is now being surpassed
    by scientific training methods that put ten to twenty guys in a race that
    could conceivably win.

    Times change and so do strategies. A good example is Axel. He tests
    stronger, faster and more enduring than his father and yet can win only on
    the rarest occassion.

    Today's racers can only be judged by their results in their time.

  4. "Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    Times change and so do strategies. A good example is Axel. He tests
    stronger, faster and more enduring than his father and yet can win only on
    the rarest occassion.

    Mindset has a lot to do with it, bicycle racing is about suffering, Papa
    Merckx probably had the better mindset for it

    Dave

  5. Confession...I'm too slow to get the medicine dropper reference and hope
    that isn't a doping accusation. Please tell me how slow I am.

    "Dave H" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    Times change and so do strategies. A good example is Axel. He tests
    stronger, faster and more enduring than his father and yet can win only


    on

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the rarest occassion.

    Mindset has a lot to do with it, bicycle racing is about suffering, Papa
    Merckx probably had the better mindset for it

    Dave

  6. "Philip W. Moore, Jr." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Confession...I'm too slow to get the medicine dropper reference and hope
    that isn't a doping accusation. Please tell me how slow I am.

    Same here. I don't quite follow, either. Also, I thought Eddy and Lance
    were buds. I know they had a brief falling-out when Eddy didn't like Lance
    attacking Axel's lead at Amstel or Liege or one of those a couple years
    back. But I thought they got beyond that.

    Maybe Eddy and Greg have struck up a friendship.

    Bob C.

  7. In the biggest race on earth, Armstrong has raised the bar far beyond either
    Merckx or Moser. This sounds like sour grapes.

    John Bickmore
    www.BuyYourInkNow.com

    "psycholist" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Philip W. Moore, Jr." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Confession...I'm too slow to get the medicine dropper reference and hope
    that isn't a doping accusation. Please tell me how slow I am.

    Same here. I don't quite follow, either. Also, I thought Eddy and Lance
    were buds. I know they had a brief falling-out when Eddy didn't like


    Lance

    Quoted message said:

    attacking Axel's lead at Amstel or Liege or one of those a couple years
    back. But I thought they got beyond that.

    Maybe Eddy and Greg have struck up a friendship.

    Bob C.

  8. xzzy said:

    In the biggest race on earth, Armstrong has raised the bar far beyond either
    Merckx or Moser. This sounds like sour grapes.

    Rubbish. Armstrong doesn't win the Tour, he just doesn't lose it.
    Merckx used to go out and win his races - like a man!

  9. xzzy said:

    In the biggest race on earth, Armstrong has raised the bar far beyond either
    Merckx or Moser. This sounds like sour grapes.

    Has your artifical hibernation pod failed - you're only due back in more
    than 6 months time.

  10. On 11/18/2004 08:50 PM, in article [email hidden],

    Philip W. Moore said:

    Confession...I'm too slow to get the medicine dropper reference and hope
    that isn't a doping accusation. Please tell me how slow I am.

    I think Eddy is referring to the very scientific, exacting approach that
    Lance takes to racing and winning the Tour. Even Lance has admitted that he
    led the race (during road stages) for perhaps 20-minutes maximum.

    Quoted message said:

    "Dave H" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    Times change and so do strategies. A good example is Axel. He tests
    stronger, faster and more enduring than his father and yet can win only


    on

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the rarest occassion.

    Mindset has a lot to do with it, bicycle racing is about suffering, Papa
    Merckx probably had the better mindset for it

    Dave

    --
    Steven L. Sheffield
    stevens at veloworks dot com
    veloworks at worldnet dot ay tea tee dot net
    bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
    ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea eye tee why you ti ay aitch
    aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
    double-yew double-ewe dot veloworks dot com [foreword] slash

  11. "Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    "Frank Drackman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Charles Hizark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/nov04/nov19news)

    "Armstrong is a cannibal, but only at the Tour," said the man
    nicknamed The Cannibal for his ferocious appetite for victory. "

    I think that the subject header should read Merckx and Moser.

    Merckx and Moser are going to tell Armstrong how to win a Tour?

    Let's face it, if Eddy and Franco were racing today they'd be specializing
    just like Lance. In their day they were great but times were different.
    There were only two or three people that had a real shot at winning a Tour
    or a Classic.

    Really?
    on the top of my head: in the 70's you had guys like Merckx, Thevenet,
    Poulidor, Zoetemelk, Ocana, Gimondi at the start of the Tour. The
    only riders at the start of the tour now that would *fit* into that
    picture are Armstrong and Ullrich. That's it.
    About the 70's classics: De Vlaeminck, Merckx, Moser, Godefroot,
    Maertens, Gimondi, Verbeeck,... They had succes and were important
    challengers in almost every classic. Compare that to Bettini,
    Bartoli, Zabel, Rebellin, Van Petegem, Boogerd who have all their
    specific type of classic where they are at their best.

    Quoted message said:

    Times have changed and natural talent is now being surpassed
    by scientific training methods that put ten to twenty guys in a race that
    could conceivably win.

    10 guys to win the Tour? If you find 5 it'll be a succes.

  12. On 11/18/2004 09:32 PM, in article [email hidden],

    psycholist said:


    "Philip W. Moore, Jr." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Confession...I'm too slow to get the medicine dropper reference and hope
    that isn't a doping accusation. Please tell me how slow I am.

    Same here. I don't quite follow, either. Also, I thought Eddy and Lance
    were buds. I know they had a brief falling-out when Eddy didn't like Lance
    attacking Axel's lead at Amstel or Liege or one of those a couple years
    back. But I thought they got beyond that.

    Perhaps if you read the entire article (or even the sentence which
    immediately preceded what Charles posted):

    Despite the historical accomplishment of six straight Tours by Armstrong,
    this hasn't convinced old school Euros like Eddy Merckx and Francesco Moser.
    Although they are old friends, Eddy has never minced words when evaluating
    Armstrong's approach to racing. "Armstrong is a cannibal, but only at the
    Tour," said the man nicknamed The Cannibal for his ferocious appetite for
    victory. "If I raced with a medicine dropper like him, I'd have won the Tour
    for at least twenty years. I've always criticised Lance because he gives
    little back to cycling."

    I see the comments from Merckx (at least) as being more nostalgic and
    lamenting of the way things have changed than bitter. He criticizes Lance's
    approach because he wishes Armstrong raced with an attitude more like his
    own ...

    Moser's comments, on the other hand, are just spiteful.

    --
    Steven L. Sheffield
    stevens at veloworks dot com
    veloworks at worldnet dot ay tea tee dot net
    bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
    ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea eye tee why you ti ay aitch
    aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
    double-yew double-ewe dot veloworks dot com [foreword] slash

  13. Steven L. Sheffield said:

    I think Eddy is referring to [...]

    My speculation, from the "New virtual TdF record" thread:

    I'm thinking it's an odd translation of Merckx using an obscure
    expression to say that LANCE hardly ever races ("If I cherry-picked my
    races like him" etc.). He has races trickle on his schedule like
    droplets from a pipette.

    I checked with Jeff, but it was Tim's piece and probably from French.

    --
    Firefox Web Browser - Rediscover the web - http://getffox.com/
    Thunderbird E-mail and Newsgroups - http://gettbird.com/

  14. On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 23:32:51 -0500, "psycholist" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    Same here. I don't quite follow, either. Also, I thought Eddy and Lance
    were buds. I know they had a brief falling-out when Eddy didn't like Lance
    attacking Axel's lead at Amstel or Liege or one of those a couple years
    back. But I thought they got beyond that.

    I collect fountain pens and you have some you fill with medicine
    droppers - a careful process where you are precisely filling or
    placing the liquid. IF the quote is accurate, my guess that it is a
    reference to someone that selects carefully where they make their
    efforts and otherwise skips the event or makes a perfunctory effort
    for training purposes.

    Curtis L. Russell
    Odenton, MD (USA)
    Just someone on two wheels...

  15. Steven L. Sheffield said:


    Moser's comments, on the other hand, are just spiteful.

    I think the comments are fair. He might have prefered Poulidor to
    Anquetil as well - bicycle racing didn't need 180 Anquetils on the
    start line either. There were a lot of years I would have picked Kelly
    as my favorite as all-around cyclist over the Tour favorites.

    Curtis L. Russell
    Odenton, MD (USA)
    Just someone on two wheels...

  16. "Philip W. Moore, Jr." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    Confession...I'm too slow to get the medicine dropper reference and hope
    that isn't a doping accusation. Please tell me how slow I am.

    I interpet that as saying Armstrong doses his efforts in 'small' amounts,
    i.e. drops out of a medicine dropper. While Eddy threw buckets of effort
    around....

  17. Steven L. Sheffield said:

    On 11/18/2004 08:50 PM, in article [email hidden],

    Philip W. Moore said:

    Confession...I'm too slow to get the medicine dropper reference and hope
    that isn't a doping accusation. Please tell me how slow I am.

    I think Eddy is referring to the very scientific, exacting approach that
    Lance takes to racing and winning the Tour. Even Lance has admitted that he
    led the race (during road stages) for perhaps 20-minutes maximum.

    I think eddy and Moser can say what the hell they want,they've won every race in the universe. It's not like they don't know what they're talking about.

    I have always thought it's odd to just focus on one race, esepecially
    when you know you can win others.I find it a very strange way to
    approach a sport, in principle, making your whole season about one
    race. Back in the day, merxck and moser had to do most of the races,
    it was different. But really, mercxk was so strong I believe him when
    he says he could have done th tour for 20 years if he'd saved up like
    lance. The guy was so strong that sometimes it looked like he was
    pulling the bike along as if it weren't going fast enough for him. As
    for moser, he has an italian bias perhaps but a reasonable beef.I
    think Cunego deserved to win, too, but he will one day.

  18. "Steven L. Sheffield" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    On 11/18/2004 09:32 PM, in article [email hidden],

    psycholist said:


    "Philip W. Moore, Jr." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Confession...I'm too slow to get the medicine dropper reference and hope
    that isn't a doping accusation. Please tell me how slow I am.

    Same here. I don't quite follow, either. Also, I thought Eddy and Lance
    were buds. I know they had a brief falling-out when Eddy didn't like Lance
    attacking Axel's lead at Amstel or Liege or one of those a couple years
    back. But I thought they got beyond that.

    Perhaps if you read the entire article (or even the sentence which
    immediately preceded what Charles posted):

    "If I raced with a medicine dropper like him, I'd have won the Tour
    for at least twenty years."

    I think the word "Medicine" is throwing you off. I you read the
    sentence, it's talking about how he races - _with_ a medicine dropper
    - meaning he measures his efforts and only "drops" efforts carefully
    (and all for the tour). Eddy raced hard, all year round - so I would
    say for him, he raced with a firehose - all out, all the time.

    I don't think it has anything to do with doping.

    -a

  19. "Philip W. Moore, Jr." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Confession...I'm too slow to get the medicine dropper reference and hope
    that isn't a doping accusation. Please tell me how slow I am.

    He means that Lance is racing in drips and drops whereas in the old days you
    raced every race.

  20. "Philip W. Moore, Jr." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    Confession...I'm too slow to get the medicine dropper reference and hope
    that isn't a doping accusation. Please tell me how slow I am.

    "Dave H" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    Times change and so do strategies. A good example is Axel. He tests
    stronger, faster and more enduring than his father and yet can win only


    on

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the rarest occassion.

    Mindset has a lot to do with it, bicycle racing is about suffering, Papa
    Merckx probably had the better mindset for it

    Dave

    Once, a long time ago, I remember reading that Eddy felt that the
    ability to go fast and suffer was like a reservoir of water. Everybody
    was born with a limited amount. The harder you pushed yourself, the
    more of your reserves you would use and once they were all gone, well
    that was it! Some people had larger reserves than others, but once it
    was gone, your finished. So what he is saying is that Armstrong is
    being overly cautious with his reservoir.

    Miller

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