Armstrong Again

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by cyclintom [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

I hate to point this out to you but the Tour de France is in France and not the USA. All of the famous and most of the non-famous races are in Europe and completely outside of the scope of the USADA.

Lance hasn't even won a tour de france. I think he won a world championship back in 1993, he only won it because the other riders kept falling off.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Your arguments keep coming back to the same thing, why did they pursue this case and not others. That is exactly the logic of a driver who gets pulled over for speeding and tries to argue that others were speeding or perhaps that there are other bigger crimes in the city that should take priority.

Guess what, that argument does not hold. Armstrong by his own eventual admission violated the rules and was finally caught. Whether others are also guilty or whether other sports have their own problems worthy of investigation is irrelevant.

That or the thief who pleads not guilty because the bank deposits were all transferred the night before he broke in ... surely there shouldn't be a penalty if he wasn't able to pocket any cash! 🙂

Ah ... if only to live in a world without consequences for one's actions.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by sitzmark [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Ah ... if only to live in a world without consequences for one's actions.

LA did for near on 20 years

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Your arguments keep coming back to the same thing, why did they pursue this case and not others. That is exactly the logic of a driver who gets pulled over for speeding and tries to argue that others were speeding or perhaps that there are other bigger crimes in the city that should take priority.

Guess what, that argument does not hold. Armstrong by his own eventual admission violated the rules and was finally caught. Whether others are also guilty or whether other sports have their own problems worthy of investigation is irrelevant.

Exactly.

It's the two wrongs make a right mentality.
Completely bogus attempt to rationalise their idol's behaviour.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by limerickman [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Exactly.

It's the two wrongs make a right mentality.
Completely bogus attempt to rationalise their idol's behaviour.

I think that you're completely off the mark. What I said from the initial post on is that Armstrong didn't do anything more wrong than anyone else. Not that he didn't do anything wrong.

The attitude I'm seeing appears to be that the winner is more wrong than the others because he was the winner. Do you believe that?

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by cyclintom [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

I think that you're completely off the mark. What I said from the initial post on is that Armstrong didn't do anything more wrong than anyone else. Not that he didn't do anything wrong.

The attitude I'm seeing appears to be that the winner is more wrong than the others because he was the winner. Do you believe that?

Please explain who got the free pass and was not punished.

cyclintom said:

I think that you're completely off the mark. What I said from the initial post on is that Armstrong didn't do anything more wrong than anyone else. Not that he didn't do anything wrong. The attitude I'm seeing appears to be that the winner is more wrong than the others because he was the winner. Do you believe that?

Wrong. That's the attitude you choose to see. The point is that the fact that others haven't been busted is irrelevant to what happened to Armstrong. Armstrong made his situation distinctive by the totality of his actions, which means that only Armstrong is to blame for his lot. There's been no witch hunt, and there's certainly been no indication at all that WADA/USADA/xADA have signaled they are done pursuing dopers now that Armstrong has been caught. It's entirely possible, maybe even probable, that someone will be busted whose actions were even more egregious than Armstrong's. For what it's worth, Armstrong did do more wrong than other dopers. There's no evidence other dopers didn't sue and win suits to shut up people that told the truth about Armstrong. There's no evidence that other dopers intimidated and threatened others as Armstrong did. There's no evidence that other dopers were as involved in the relevant doping scheme as Armstrong was. The USADA report spells it all out. You have yet to provide a single example of any other doper who whose acts were equally as bad as Armstrong's. Again, Armstrong's wrongs were not limited to his use of doping products. If that was the sum of his wrongs, the story wouldn't be the story that it became.

There's been no witch hunt? None of the charges against him would have held up in a court of law because all was here-say evidence.

You'd be the first to demand your rights but are the first to deny them to Armstrong.

Only the USADA is capable of determining guilt and meting punishment of a major sort without a court of law.

As for Armstrong's actions concerning his teammates: as detestable as it was it had nothing to do with the sport itself.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by cyclintom [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

There's been no witch hunt? None of the charges against him would have held up in a court of law because all was here-say evidence.

You'd be the first to demand your rights but are the first to deny them to Armstrong.

Only the USADA is capable of determining guilt and meting punishment of a major sort without a court of law.

As for Armstrong's actions concerning his teammates: as detestable as it was it had nothing to do with the sport itself.

You're becoming rather tedious at this point.

Your man confessed to doping. I linked it earlier in this thread. You're labouring a point which has been refuted beyond any and all doubt.

You're not actually contributing to this site at this juncture.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by limerickman [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

You're becoming rather tedious at this point.

Your man confessed to doping. I linked it earlier in this thread. You're labouring a point which has been refuted beyond any and all doubt.

You're not actually contributing to this site at this juncture.

After how many years? So let's dole out punishments and then hope that years later someone will "confess".

Real American attitude that.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by cyclintom [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

After how many years? So let's dole out punishments and then hope that years later someone will "confess".

Real American attitude that.

Tom, I'm not American.

And no Tom, the punishment that is being "doled out" has only begun since your man confessed.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by cyclintom [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

There's been no witch hunt? None of the charges against him would have held up in a court of law because all was here-say evidence....

First person testimony is not hearsay and is completely valid in a court of law.

Witch hunts are so called because there are not actually witches. In this case there was and is a guilty party, the investigation was justified based on a great deal of evidence as presented in the USADA Reasoned Decision. There was no witch hunt, there were strong suspicions of guilt, an investigation, a finding, an opportunity for Armstrong to challenge that finding which he chose not to do and then finally an admission of that guilt.

There was due process based on investigation and with his admission Armstrong acknowledged as much.

The man was and is guilty as charged, even he no longer denies this. Why do you cling to hopes of unfair treatment or rationalizations that his transgressions are in some way justified? He made his bed and now has to sleep in it and he's not done yet with at least three pending lawsuits including the big money SCA case to deal with.

cyclintom said:

There's been no witch hunt? None of the charges against him would have held up in a court of law because all was here-say evidence. You'd be the first to demand your rights but are the first to deny them to Armstrong. Only the USADA is capable of determining guilt and meting punishment of a major sort without a court of law. As for Armstrong's actions concerning his teammates: as detestable as it was it had nothing to do with the sport itself.

Note that Armstrong was not tried in a criminal court case (that's still pending in several places and will take place in civil courts), so what would have happened in such a case is of no relevance. Armstrong's actions went well beyond his teammates. No matter how people repeat the same facts of the Armstrong affair, you continue to ignore them and argue points of no relevance to Armstrong's case. There's no point in reading any more of what you have to say.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by cyclintom [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

After how many years? So let's dole out punishments and then hope that years later someone will "confess".

Real American attitude that.

It will be interesting to see how Ulrich is handled in germany. Mind you, I think there is a world of difference between LA and JU, but the German National Anti-Doping Agency is set on pursuing Ullrich.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by baker3 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

It will be interesting to see how Ulrich is handled in germany. Mind you, I think there is a world of difference between LA and JU, but the German National Anti-Doping Agency is set on pursuing Ullrich.

Unlike America, there seems to be a zero-tolerance policy with regard to doping. Cycling and television coverage of the TDF was stopped throughout Germany after Ullrich, Schumacher, Jaksche,
Zabel controversies.

Americas eyes are open except when they are closed.

cyclintom said:

... I had a serious head injury in 2009...

You should have started the thread with this statement... That would have saved everyone allot of time here.