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Are h*1**ts dangerous

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UK and Europe
Published
9 April 2004
Last activity
14 April 2004
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. Paul
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  1. Ok, I'm coming at this from the other end now. I am anti-
    compulsion, but I can still see *some* merit in wearing a
    helmet (not least because of my habit of trying to headbut
    the tarmac). The thing is, I'm begining to worry that I
    might be increasing the risk by insisting that my little
    folk wear a helmet when on a bike. I am worrying needlessly
    aren't I, I mean, I might not be reducing the risk, but
    they're not actually dangerous are they?

    It's al yours faults, you got me thinking this way 🙁
    --
    .paul

    If at first you don't succeed... Skydiving is probably not
    the sport for you

  2. .paul said:

    Ok, I'm coming at this from the other end now. I am anti-
    compulsion, but I can still see *some* merit in wearing a
    helmet (not least because of my habit of trying to headbut
    the tarmac). The thing is, I'm begining to worry that I
    might be increasing the risk by insisting that my little
    folk wear a helmet when on a bike. I am worrying
    needlessly aren't I, I mean, I might not be reducing the
    risk, but they're not actually dangerous are they?

    It's al yours faults, you got me thinking this way 🙁

    Those places where cyclists *are* compelled to wear helmets
    haven't recorded a decrease in head injuries in cyclists.
    Given than some accidents probably are mitigated by helmet
    use - it follows that some must have been caused by it.

    Wearing a helmet makes your head bigger - therefore more of
    a target - so some say...

    If your wont is to headbutt the pavement - wearing a helmet
    may well help. If you ride in amongst white-van man and
    traffic, wearing one may not. Then again, it may...

    --
    Chris

  3. On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 18:55:04 +0000 (UTC), .paul <[email hidden]>

    wrote in message : said:

    Ok, I'm coming at this from the other end now. I am anti-
    compulsion, but I can still see *some* merit in wearing a
    helmet (not least because of my habit of trying to headbut
    the tarmac). The thing is, I'm begining to worry that I
    might be increasing the risk by insisting that my little
    folk wear a helmet when on a bike. I am worrying needlessly
    aren't I, I mean, I might not be reducing the risk, but
    they're not actually dangerous are they?

    Sane and intelligent question.

    The Chapmen wear plastic hats most of the time. This is less
    likely (for me) on trundly trips to the shops on the
    mountain bike and more likely when thrashing along on the
    drop-bar bike. The children wear hats where there is a
    realistic chance of crashing or falling off
    (e.g. Pete wears his wobbling round the park on his new bike
    which he hasn't quite got the hang of yet). They
    absolutely loved the freedom of riding round the field
    at York last year without helmets. Can a child suffer
    a significant head injury falling onto grass? Maybe,
    but it seems unlikely.

    We (the Chapmen) are completely convinced that a plastic hat
    is good for one thing: prevention of cuts and scrapes. It
    will not prevent a serious injury. That is what road sense
    is for. It is also worth pointing out that serious cycling
    injuries are actually quite rare; on the other hand, young
    children in particular have less completely formed skulls,
    so maybe the bit of additional protection could come in
    handy. We don't know much about this because nobody is
    researching it
    - all the research seems to start by tryign to reproduce
    Thompson, Rivara and Thompson and spends much of its time
    coming up with explanations of why it fell short.

    The Real World provides no evidence for any effect from
    helmets at all: there is no known case where cyclist
    safety has improved with increasing helmet use. I think
    that is explained in part by the fact that most measures
    of safety involve comparing the risk of serious injury or
    death with the risk of slight injury, and helmets are very
    unlikely to prevent serious injury or death; and with risk
    compensation behaviour by helmeted cyclists. I have read
    the evidence that helmets may make rotational injuries
    worse. It is entirely plausible but I am not yet convinced
    that it accounts for more than amarginal effect, because
    serious injuries are so rare. Consider the concept of the
    severity ratio (killed or seriously injured over all
    injuries). In London the ratio has declined steadily over
    the last 20 years, at about the same rate as for
    pedestrians, but helmet use has risen to nearly 50%. If
    helmets worked even half as well as their advocates claim,
    I can't see how this would be.

    I definitely ride faster on my drop-bar bike with a helmet
    than without. I am considering going back to the wollen hat
    for this reason.

    On the recumbent I find it hard to think of any situation
    where a helmet would do any good; I use one in winter
    because it has a peak to keep the rain off my specs and it
    gives me somewhere to attach my headtorch.

    One crucial problem which muddies the waters: as far as the
    Government are concerned, compulsion is a matter of when,
    not if. They see every cyclist wearing a helmet as a vote
    for compulsion. They are quite open about this.

    So, should children wear helmets? Yes. No. Maybe. I really
    don't know. As far as I'm concerned both "yes" and "no" are
    perfectly defensible answers; the evidence is inconclusive,
    so I take the CTC line that it should be a matter for
    individual choice. Ultimately as long as they are riding
    their bikes that is all that matters.

    Should the Martlew bill be killed and Britain's cyclists
    dance on its grave? Absolutely. A law founded on the premise
    that allowing a child to ride a tricycle in the park without
    "protective headgear" should be a criminal offence is just
    too fatuous to pass.

    Trust me, as a fully paid-up handwringer I have agonised for
    many hours over whether I am right to devote as much energy
    as I have into opposing helmet compulsion. Having analysed
    the DoH data and measured the claims of BeHIT against
    reality I am now much more firmly convinced that the major
    achievement of the helmet lobby has been to raise an
    entirely false view of cycling as something uniquely
    dangerous to children. For that I will find it very hard to
    forgive them. It is quite possible that untold damage has
    already been done to British cycling simply through this
    message and the deterrent effect it has had.

    Enough said. Please do read Risk by John Adams, as well as
    Cyclecraft by John Franklin if you've not read it, and Death
    on the Streets by Bob Davis if you can find a copy.

    --
    Guy
    ===
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
    posting. chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
    Washington University

  4. In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:

    On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 18:55:04 +0000 (UTC), .paul
    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    Ok, I'm coming at this from the other end now. I am anti-
    compulsion, but I can still see *some* merit in wearing a
    helmet (not least because of my habit of trying to
    headbut the tarmac). The thing is, I'm begining to worry
    that I might be increasing the risk by insisting that my
    little folk wear a helmet when on a bike. I am worrying
    needlessly aren't I, I mean, I might not be reducing the
    risk, but they're not actually dangerous are they?

    Sane and intelligent question.


    Well I like to think I am both sane and intellegent, but
    given that I am in the process of purchasing a 'bent,
    certain parties who are not a thousand inches[1] away from
    me would question both of those asertations 😉

    <Snip thoughtful thought provoking reply>

    Quoted message said:

    Trust me, as a fully paid-up handwringer I have agonised
    for many hours over whether I am right to devote as much
    energy as I have into opposing helmet compulsion. Having
    analysed the DoH data and measured the claims of BeHIT
    against reality I am now much more firmly convinced that
    the major achievement of the helmet lobby has been to
    raise an entirely false view of cycling as something
    uniquely> dangerous to children. For that I will find it
    very hard to forgive them. It is quite possible that
    untold damage has already been done to British cycling
    simply through this message and the deterrent effect it
    has had.


    I can't quite articulate my admeration fro someone who has
    the motivation to do somethin g about it. I could cite lack
    of time, other priorities etc., as I'm sure others would,
    but at the end of the day, to be motivated to do something
    like this without it being in pursuit of financial gain, is
    nothing short of heroic. My sincer thanks to you for doing
    something that we all profess to care about, but can't quite
    be bothered to do something about.

    Quoted message said:

    Enough said. Please do read Risk by John Adams, as well as
    Cyclecraft by John Franklin if you've not read it, and
    Death on the Streets by Bob Davis if you can find a copy.


    Blimey, thats quite a reading list. I suppose the least I
    can do is read
    it 🙂
    --
    .paul

    If at first you don't succeed... Skydiving is probably not
    the sport for you.

  5. paul said:

    I can't quite articulate my admeration fro someone who
    has the motivation to do somethin g about it. I could
    cite lack of time, other priorities etc., as I'm sure
    others would, but at the end of the day, to be
    motivated to do something like this without it being in
    pursuit of financial gain, is nothing short of heroic.
    My sincer thanks to you for doing something that we all
    profess to care about, but can't quite be bothered to
    do something about.

    Me to.

    --
    Andy Morris

    AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK

    Love this:
    Put an end to Outlook Express's messy quotes
    home.in.tum.deoe quotefix

  6. Quoted post said:

    posted by . Paul

    <snip>
    ...The thing is, I'm begining to worry that I
    might be increasing the risk by insisting that my little
    folk wear a helmet when on a bike. I am worrying needlessly
    aren't I, I mean, I might not be reducing the risk, but
    they're not actually dangerous are they?

    The worry, the anxiety, the fear of that hobgoblin that goes by the name of Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)... that's why it's easier to believe.

    The debate on helmets is (to me, at least) interesting from a philosophical/psychological perspective.

    I see a similarity with Pascal's wager - the scaremongering wager for believing in the existence of god, because if you don't believe - then it's eternity in a firey hell for you. Substitute here, for the presumed payoff in the belief in god, the belief that a cycle helmet confers upon it's wearer protection from a fearful fate.

    Amplify the nagging fear and agonising anxiety that you will feel, by considering that the most horrible thing (TBI) might happen, not to you, but to you dear offspring - imagine the regret that would torment you like the Furies.

    Not to wear a helmet - there's courage for you.

    One of the problems in Pascal's wager is the (presumed) prior reckoning of the two possible outcomes - heaven vs. hell, and similarly with helmets - the purported and/or presumed outcome for wearing one is the avoidance of "hell" (TBI). Evidence for these alternative outcomes is completely lacking - the outcomes are speculative and borne of fear and wishful thinking, as are the beliefs about helmets.

    Pascal offers some practical psychological advice to those who have trouble believing in the helmet god - he suggests acting out "as if" you believe, and eventually you will come to believe.
    Similarly many people will wear helmets, many perhaps uncritically doing so - and there are psychology theories that claim that (their) attitudes follow (their) behaviour - get people to do a thing and there attitude towards it will become favourible (cognitive dissonance is one such theory).

    The question is: do you succumb to the scaremongering - the targeting your limbic system, inflaming fear and anxiety and then ameliorate them by sucking a dummy - or do you have the courage to look and examine critically - keeping emotion, comforting illusions and self deception in check - and think for yourself?

    Roger

    sapere aude

  7. You are Pa*l Smi*h and I claim my £5 .....

  8. In article <i6Hdc.227$296.2125988@news-
    text.cableinet.net>,=20 [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:

    You are Pa*l Smi*h and I claim my =A35 .....
    =20 20 20 20 20


    :p thrrruuuppss --=20 .paul

    If at first you don't succeed... Skydiving is probably not
    the sport for you.

  9. In article <[email hidden]>, usenet-
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:

    The debate on helmets is (to me, at least) interesting
    from a philosophical/psychological perspective.


    Bit heavy that, for a Saturday morning. I've saved it for a
    reread later.
    --
    .paul

    If at first you don't succeed... Skydiving is probably not
    the sport for you.

  10. ".paul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Ok, I'm coming at this from the other end now. I am anti-
    compulsion, but I can still see *some* merit in wearing a
    helmet (not least because of my habit of trying to headbut
    the tarmac). The thing is, I'm begining to worry that I
    might be increasing the risk by insisting that my little
    folk wear a helmet when on a bike. I am worrying
    needlessly aren't I, I mean, I might not be reducing the
    risk, but they're not actually dangerous are they?


    <snip>

    Must admit, I've never seen one get up and ' 'ave a go' at
    someone ;-) Dave. (sorry, couldn't resist!)

  11. Just zis Guy said:

    I definitely ride faster on my drop-bar bike with a helmet
    than without. I am considering going back to the wollen hat
    for this reason.

    Because we can run at 20mph, and 20mph impact speed is a
    kind of threshold past which greater speeds of impact start
    causing a lot more injury, I suspected 20mph might be the
    speed up to which my reflexes and physiology are well able
    to protect me from injury.

    I decided to carry out an experiment, using incidence of hazardous-
    feeling "nasty moments" as indicators of accident
    likelihood. I bought a bike "computer" and started keeping a
    log of the speed at which I was going when a nasty moment
    happened. After a few months it was clear that most of my
    nasty moments happened at speeds in excess of 20mph, even
    though the time I spent at such speeds was a small
    proportion of my total cycling time (largely urban
    commuting).

    Apart from the one time when a doctor drugged me and told me
    "This will have absolutely no effect at all on your
    'driving'" (I'd asked him about cycling, but he was clearly
    a car chauvinist), my last 43 years of cycling (mostly
    summer time commuting and shopping) have been accident free.
    Hoping to preserve my physiology intact enough to keep
    cycling for a few more decades, I decided not to exceed
    20mph on my bike.

    The reduction in nasty moments has been most gratifying.

    If I was younger, fitter, and faster, I might have been
    tempted instead to get a helmet to protect me against >20mph
    impacts. But nobody makes one of those, unfortunately. The
    only bike helmets on sale are designed to protect against
    head injuries at those speeds at which you don't need
    protection. Given an industry which has struggled for
    decades, and failed so often so miserably, to design such a
    simple thing as a good bicycle lamp, who is surprised?

    Quoted message said:

    On the recumbent I find it hard to think of any situation
    where a helmet would do any good; I use one in winter
    because it has a peak to keep the rain off my specs and it
    gives me somewhere to attach my headtorch.

    You ought to get one of those superior head torches which
    are designed to be attached to the head :-)
    --
    Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
    IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
    ["]http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

  12. ".paul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Ok, I'm coming at this from the other end now. I am anti-
    compulsion, but I can still see *some* merit in wearing a
    helmet (not least because of my habit of trying to headbut
    the tarmac). The thing is, I'm begining to worry that I
    might be increasing the risk by insisting that my little
    folk wear a helmet when on a bike. I am worrying
    needlessly aren't I, I mean, I might not be reducing the
    risk, but they're not actually dangerous are they?

    It's al yours faults, you got me thinking this way 🙁

    I choose not to wear a helmet for reasons of comfort. I
    don't want a big piece of plastic on my head at all. I
    haven't worn any head covering since I last rode a
    motorbike in 1982. Between the age of 16 - 22, I rode
    1000's of miles on a motorbike and crashed many times,
    usually on slippery roads and once when I rode into car
    that pulled out of a side road. The only injuries I ever
    got were gashes to the ankle, I never once banged my head.

    In the past 6 years of cycling, I have had only one crash
    on a slippery roundabout and banged my head on the road as
    hard as it is possible to do so at 20 mph. I had a small
    bump on my bonce and a tiny amount of blood and again the
    main injury was a gashed ankle which bled for hours.

    Now, if I was racing, I'd wear a helmet, just as if I was
    racing a car, I'd wear a helmet. Otherwise, from past
    experience they are a waste of time. I'd much rather
    double and triple check any possible hazard than think
    "I'll chance it" just because I've got a bit of plastic
    on my head.

    Funny thing is, if you go to The Netherlands, no one would
    dream of wearing a helmet and I don't think they've got an
    epidemic of bashed in skulls.

    --
    Simon Mason Anlaby East Yorkshire. 53°44'N 0°26'W
    simonmason.karoo.netsimonmason.karoo.net

  13. Just zis Guy said:

    I definitely ride faster on my drop-bar bike with a helmet
    than without. I am considering going back to the wollen
    hat for this reason.

    Right, that settles it. If it makes me go faster, I'm going
    out to get a helmet on Tuesday ;-)

    Anyone know whether Harry Cohen has any strong views on the
    subject either way? faxyourmp.com suggests that he does
    actually respond to email, so I sent him a couple of paras
    about London's transport infrastructure, the 30% rise in
    cycle usage since congestion charging was introduced, and
    the likely negative effect of helmet compulsion on
    encouraging this splendid trend.

    -dan

    --
    "please make sure that the person is your friend before
    you confirm"

  14. paul said:
    Quoted message said:

    Enough said. Please do read Risk by John Adams, as well
    as Cyclecraft by John Franklin if you've not read it, and
    Death on the Streets by Bob Davis if you can find a copy.


    Blimey, thats quite a reading list. I suppose the least I
    can do is read
    it 🙂

    Someone reading this message will be able to put you in
    touch with Bob Davis if you really want a copy of his book.
    He sold me a copy a few weeks ago so at that point he had
    some copies available. I have an email address for him if
    you need it.

  15. Simon Mason said:

    Between the age of 16 - 22, I rode 1000's of miles on a
    motorbike and crashed many times, usually on slippery
    roads and once when I rode into car that pulled out of a
    side road. The only injuries I ever got were gashes to the
    ankle, I never once banged my head.

    You were lucky. I'd never get on a motorbike without a full
    face helmet.

    1) I've been into the side of a Mondeo at 90mph and saw the
    state of my helmet afterwards. There wasn't a lot left.
    There wouldn't have been much left of my head without it.

    2) Stones, flies, small pidgeons all hurt when they hit you
    in the face. Got hit by a stone yesterday going to
    Derby, at 80mph it hurt even through my armoured
    leathers. Imagine that in the face.

    I can understand not wearing a cycle helmet, the speeds
    don't really warrant it, but not wearing a motorcycle helmet
    is shear stupidity.
    --
    "We take these risks, not to escape from life, but to
    prevent life escaping from us." bensales.combensales.com

  16. "BenS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:


    I can understand not wearing a cycle helmet, the speeds
    don't really warrant it, but not wearing a motorcycle
    helmet is sheer stupidity.

    I wasn't advocating not wearing a m/c helmet, I only said
    that in all my
    crashes I never needed it. I still wouldn't have ridden
    without one though!

    Simon M.

  17. On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 14:47:40 +0100, "MSeries"
    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    Someone reading this message will be able to put you in
    touch with Bob Davis if you really want a copy of his book.

    There are, as Bob puts it, a few rare unsigned copies
    available ;-)

    --
    Guy
    ===
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
    posting. chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
    Washington University

  18. In "]news:[email hidden],
    BenS <[email hidden]> typed:

    Quoted message said:

    I've been into the side of a Mondeo at 90mph

    ...

    Quoted message said:

    Got hit by a stone yesterday going to Derby, at
    80mph it hurt

    Perhaps you shopuld slow down a bit.

    Tim
    --
    Sent from Birmingham, UK... Check out www.nervouscyclist.org
    'When you hear a man ranting, don't just read the lips, be
    more sublime than this. Put everything in context. Is this a
    tale of rough justice in a land where there is no justice at
    all?' - Michael Franti

  19. In article <[email hidden]>,

    BenS said:

    You were lucky. I'd never get on a motorbike without a
    full face helmet.

    Lucky you. In my motorcycling days that wasn't an option:
    there was no such thing as a full-face helmet that would
    fit. Fortunately I was able to ride legally with the largest
    size of open helmet.

    But, that does beg the question of whether there may be
    people around who simply can't get a helmet that'll fit. For
    any activity that requires it ...

    --
    Nick Kew

    Nick's manifesto: htmlhelp.com~nick

  20. Quoted message said:

    We (the Chapmen) are completely convinced that a plastic hat is good
    for one thing: prevention of cuts and scrapes.

    Tis true. My 5 yr old has not only a helmet but elbow and
    knee pads - and he loves wearing them because they are
    Action Man branded and therefore cool. I expect he'll grow
    out of that opinion - but by then I expect him to be a
    competent cyclist so it won't be so much of an issue. In
    the meantime, I probably should get him some protective
    gloves too.

    d.

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