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Are all Science Bigots Absurdists?

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
13 January 2005
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18 January 2005
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Mr-Natural-Health
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  1. I recently came across the full text of an editorial which all the
    science want-a-bees must be using for their operation manual? I have
    seen the same clearly bigoted comments made all over the Internet, that
    are almost word for word the same. Do all you bigots read the NEJM?

    So, I have directly quoted a gaggle of these absurdities and attached
    my response to them below.

    Angell M, Kassirer JP. Alternative medicine-the risks of untested and
    unregulated remedies. [Editorial] N Engl J Med.1998; 339:839 -41.

    "What most sets alternative medicine apart, in our view, is that it has
    not been scientifically tested and its advocates largely deny the need
    for such testing." [Nobody in alternative is denying the need for
    testing. What we are objecting too is the constant harassment by
    bigots who should be rotting in jail, right next to the racists, and
    rapists for their bigotry. Alternative medicine is objecting to clearly
    non-drug forms of treatment being blindly subjected to a drug testing
    paradigm by a bunched of bigots. News flash: alternative medicine has
    been and continues to be tested. Seems simply enough to me, what part
    don't you understand?]

    "Many advocates of alternative medicine, in contrast, believe the
    scientific method is simply not applicable to their remedies. They rely
    instead on anecdotes and theories." [Only in the warped sense of
    perception of a science bigot. Different forms of treatment, clearly
    are more challenging to test for then the typical science bigot is able
    to comprehend. That is why bigots really suck at research methodology.
    They are closed minded and just plain ignorant.]

    "In 1992, Congress established within the National Institutes of Health
    an Office of Alternative Medicine to evaluate alternative remedies. So
    far, the results have been disappointing." [Only in the warped sense of
    perception of a science bigot. I find the results so far to be quite
    thrilling. Maybe the problem is that all bigots are fundamentally
    negative, rotten people, with a major attitude problem?]

    "In contrast, anecdotes about alternative remedies (usually published
    in books and magazines for the public) have no such documentation and
    are considered sufficient in themselves as support for therapeutic
    claims. [Only in the warped sense of perception of a science bigot.
    Yeah, right, sure: the branch of medicine called Integrative medicine
    and Andrew Weil, MD, don't exist if you are a bigot.]

    "Accordingly, herbs or mixtures of herbs are considered superior to the
    active compounds isolated in the laboratory." [Interestingly, the
    editorial mentions digitalis toxicity. According to Andrew Weil, MD:
    Natural healers using herbalism preferred using whole herbs which are
    slower acting. With whole herbs any adverse reactions to a herb are
    likely to be noticed by signs of nausea, before they become a major
    problem. For example, there are three stages to digitalis toxicity. The
    symptoms of the first stage are supposed to be gastrointestinal,
    usually nausea and vomiting. Administering digitalis as a whole herb
    (i.e., a tea made with foxglove) offers a comfortable margin of safety
    for catching any adverse drug reactions, at the first stage of
    toxicity. But, when digitalis is administered as a prescription drug,
    physicians are trained never to expect to see this first stage of
    toxicity as the pure drug form is too fast acting. Andrew Weil, M.D.,
    _Health and Healing_, Houghton Mifflin Company, New York, 1998, pages
    102-104. So, maybe science bigots are just ignoramuses?]

    "And healing methods ... lack ... the presence of a rationale that
    violates fundamental scientific laws" [If you are a science bigot the
    presence of a rationale is always more important than whether or not a
    treatment works. Let the patient rot is their motto. Acupuncture has
    been proven to work over and over again. Physicians exist for the
    benefit of suffering patients. Patients don't exist to edify academic
    snobbery. Just thought that you might want to know.]

    "Of all forms of alternative treatment, the most common is herbal
    medicine." [Simply not correct. In 1993, Eisenberg documented that
    Exercise was number one followed closely by prayer. In 1997, Eisenberg
    foolishly stopped testing for exercise and prayer was still in the
    lead. The 2002 NCCAM survey again shows prayer in the lead. Herbalism
    shows up as number 2. And, of course, they are still ignoring exercise
    as being the clear number one choice in alternative medicine.]

    "In less than a century, life expectancy in the United States has
    increased by three decades, in part because of better sanitation and
    living standards, but in large part because of advances in medicine
    realized through rigorous testing." [Simply not truth. Who was it that
    said that if you tell a big enough lie, long enough and often enough
    the masses will actually be dumb enough to believe it? The improvements
    in longevity came by way of a better diet due to the modern food
    distribution system, clean drinking water, and sanitation in urban
    areas. And, let us not forget plain old human greed that promoted the
    draining of swamps as a natural bi-product of the land development
    process. Truth be known, surgical advances promoted by warfare has
    done more for heart disease than all of your academic [censored].]

    "Now, with the increased interest in alternative medicine, we see a
    reversion to irrational approaches to medical practice ..." [Only in
    the warped sense of perception of a science bigot. It is hard to
    explain the irrational beliefs of a science bigot. Ha, ... Hah, Ha!]

    "Most such people would probably seek out conventional doctors if ...
    Still, uncertainty about whether symptoms are serious could result in a
    harmful delay in getting treatment that has been proved effective. And
    some people may embrace alternative medicine exclusively, putting
    themselves in great danger." [What planet does NEJM live on? The data
    clearly shows most do seek out conventional treatment first.
    Alternative therapies are used alongside conventional treatment by
    most. And, that people abandoned to their own suffering by
    conventional medicine desperately seek out alternative medicine
    exclusively. Alternative medicine would not be here at all, if
    physicians did not suck so bad in the attitude department. Incredibly
    stupid individuals always manage to get themselves killed. That is
    what stupid people do according to the science of evolution. Just
    thought that you might want to know.]

    "colleagues describe the puzzling clinical course of a patient in whom
    lead poisoning developed after he took an Indian herbal remedy for his
    diabetes.20 These are without doubt simply examples of what will be a
    rapidly growing problem." [ So, the NEJM has never a heard of ADR, a
    very common cause of death in conventional medicine? Newsflash NEJM:
    most prescription medication is toxic and will either kill you or
    totally ruin the quality of your life if you take it long enough.]

    "Herbal remedies may also be sold without any knowledge of their
    mechanism of action." [Again, if you are a science bigot knowledge of
    the mechanism of action is always more important than helping the
    patient standing before them. Let the patient rot is their motto.
    Truth is you don't know how many drugs work. Physicians have
    historically always been recklessness and heroic with their use of
    toxic drugs.]

    "Caveat emptor" [Caveat emptor, especially applies to conventional
    medicine such as with prostate and rectal cancer. Some say that the
    conventional cure is a living hell.]

    "It is time for the scientific community to stop giving alternative
    medicine a free ride." [Maybe it is time for alternative medicine to
    ride the scientific community out of town on horse back, all tar and
    feathered? What are you clowns waiting for? If the public is
    rejecting your services, you should be gracious enough to know when you
    are not wanted. Ha, ... Hah, Ha!]

    "There cannot be two kinds of medicine - conventional and
    alternative. There is only medicine that has been adequately tested and
    medicine that has not, medicine that works and medicine that may or may
    not work." [Sorry NEJM, but the existence of science bigots makes it
    all too easy. People just plain don't like your attitude. Let me tell
    you something about the marketplace, NEJM. Alternative medicine exists
    because there is a demand for it. There is a demand for it because you
    guys just plain suck at what you do. Just thought that you might want
    to know.]

    "Alternative treatments should be subjected to scientific testing no
    less rigorous than that required for conventional treatments." [So, you
    saying that 85% of alternative medical treatment should not have to be
    proven before being used on patients just like in conventional
    medicine? And, did not this evidence-based medicine academic [censored]
    really not start gaining any popularity at all until about 1995? And,
    doesn't the NEJM realize that we are talking about in all the history
    of humanity the last decade of existence on Planet Earth? I got an
    idea NEJM, why don't you arrogant idiots get your own act together
    before you start criticizing other people?]
    --
    john gohde
    http://naturalhealthperspective.com/blog/

  2. Do you really think you are helping your cause by spewing such filth?
    If your position is correct, then thats all you need and you can use
    that as your greatest weapon. 'I think thou dost protest too much'.
    Josh
    http://freemarketdoctors.blogspot.com

  3. Careful.. he might label you a bigot...

    (grin)
    Dave

    Josh said:

    Do you really think you are helping your cause by spewing such filth?
    If your position is correct, then thats all you need and you can use
    that as your greatest weapon. 'I think thou dost protest too much'.
    Josh
    http://freemarketdoctors.blogspot.com

  4. Bigot, hum, the whole tone of the remarks does seem to reflect the mental
    state of one. For all the cross posted victums of this tirade, this is
    par for the course for our friend, we apologize he got out of the ward.
    Don't ask rational questions, he can't or will not answer them except in
    kind. He is one of our resident practitioners of nutritional theology,ie.
    believe as I assert and don't bother me with the scientific concensus
    because it is by definition wrong for even existing.

  5. Josh said:

    Do you really think you are helping your cause by spewing such filth?
    ... 'I think thou dost protest too much'.

    Now you are just starting to realize how you science bigots actually
    sound to the rest of the world.

    And, your lack of a specific response to anyone of a gaggle of specific
    replies only proves that your standard trash is easily discounted if
    only you would listen to what the entire planet was saying.

    Remember this, science bigots hold a minority view point that is
    unacceptable to the scientific community and by the rest of the
    civilizied world.
    --
    john gohde
    http://naturalhealthperspective.com/blog/

  6. Let me guess - you are a creationist too, right?

  7. I don't need to respond to absurdities - they are by definition untrue
    and do not value my time or expertise.

    Josh
    http://freemarketdoctors.blogspot.com
    p.s. only true bigots need to resort to name calling. . .

  8. Josh said:

    Do you really think you are helping your cause by spewing such filth?
    If your position is correct, then thats all you need and you can use
    that as your greatest weapon. 'I think thou dost protest too much'.
    Josh
    http://freemarketdoctors.blogspot.com


    Oh Goody, another one for the killfile, you crossposting [censored]

  9. Tobin said:

    Let me guess - you are a creationist too, right?

    Let me guess, too - you like to kick cripples and pull the wings off of
    flies?

  10. do not answer a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him
    josh
    http://freemarketdoctors.blogspot.com

  11. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Alternative medicine would not be here at all, if physicians did not


    suck so bad in the attitude department.<<

    Given that most alternative medicine involves frank belief in magic, I
    think the assertion above is pretty unlikely.Say what? If physicians
    didn't "suck" people wouldn't believe in magic? Would stop saying
    prayers? Would stop believing in special charms, lucky actions, ghosts
    and spirits, the power of prayers and religious and other special
    rituals that aren't connected with laws of physics? Would quit wiggling
    this way and that way, to try to influence rolling bowling balls? Would
    quit believing that they or their brother-in-law is special enough to
    constantly win at slots or roulette in Vegas? Yeah, right.

    Magical beliefs: for ease of definition, are sets of beliefs in which
    it believed that the universe can be controlled or coerced by words and
    feelings, rather like one's parents when one is young, or one's society
    when one is older. It treats nature like it was a person. Say the magic
    word, preferably in Latin, and down drops the duck. "Spell" = story.
    Tell a good story, and you get what you want. There's a very good
    reason why so few engineers go into politics; they simply don't think
    that way.

    You know why lawyers make bad airplane pilots? They don't realize
    Nature doesn't respond to a good argument. Whereas, the reason it's so
    hard to get magical thinking entirely out of medicine, is that
    unfortunately, the human body sometimes does.

    SBH

  12. Psychologists are using magic also? Don't they use alternative methods?

    What about Physiotherapists and Massage Therapists?

    Vitamins are all bunk then too?

    "Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Alternative medicine would not be here at all, if physicians did not


    suck so bad in the attitude department.<<

    Given that most alternative medicine involves frank belief in magic, I
    think the assertion above is pretty unlikely.Say what? If physicians
    didn't "suck" people wouldn't believe in magic? Would stop saying
    prayers? Would stop believing in special charms, lucky actions, ghosts
    and spirits, the power of prayers and religious and other special
    rituals that aren't connected with laws of physics? Would quit wiggling
    this way and that way, to try to influence rolling bowling balls? Would
    quit believing that they or their brother-in-law is special enough to
    constantly win at slots or roulette in Vegas? Yeah, right.

    Magical beliefs: for ease of definition, are sets of beliefs in which
    it believed that the universe can be controlled or coerced by words and
    feelings, rather like one's parents when one is young, or one's society
    when one is older. It treats nature like it was a person. Say the magic
    word, preferably in Latin, and down drops the duck. "Spell" = story.
    Tell a good story, and you get what you want. There's a very good
    reason why so few engineers go into politics; they simply don't think
    that way.

    You know why lawyers make bad airplane pilots? They don't realize
    Nature doesn't respond to a good argument. Whereas, the reason it's so
    hard to get magical thinking entirely out of medicine, is that
    unfortunately, the human body sometimes does.

    SBH

  13. Nobody classes psychologists, physiotherapists, and massage therapists
    as "alternative." Nor people who take vitamins, either, these days
    (most doctors do).

    "Talk therapy" isn't magical when it's aimed at somebody who
    understands it. It's only magic when it isn't.

  14. Sbharrisatsignix.netcom.com said:

    Nobody classes psychologists, physiotherapists, and massage


    therapists

    Quoted message said:

    as "alternative." Nor people who take vitamins, either, these days
    (most doctors do).

    Wrong again. Maybe that qualifies you to be a physician? The bigoted
    mind is truly amazing!
    Ha, ... Hah, Ha!

    Physical thrapists are now just starting to realize that they are part
    of alternative medicine. All you got to do is do a Google search on
    it. One physical theraptist, I know, works out of my gym. The
    practice is quite common.

    A gym is not exactly a hospital. Ha, ... Hah, Ha! Just thought that
    you might want to know.

    If a massage therapist doesn't want to be part of the sex industry it
    is because they want to me in alternative medicine.

    Any pychologist who treats medical conditions is in alternative
    medicine. Pyschologists have finally figured out that there is a lot
    of money to be made in alternative medicine. They nolonger have to
    play second fiddle to shrinks. It is called the field of health
    psychology.

    Boy are you stupid, SHB!

  15. Sbharrisatsignix.netcom.com said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Alternative medicine would not be here at all, if physicians did


    not

    Quoted message said:

    suck so bad in the attitude department.<<

    Given that most alternative medicine involves frank belief in magic,

    I must give credit to NEJM that they did not lower themselves so low as
    to claim that interest in alternative therapies requires belief in
    magic.

    Ha, ... Hah, Ha!

    Belief in the ability of potions / drugs to cure, historically started
    out with a belief in magic.

    Just thought that you might want to know.

  16. Well then I guess you hit the nail on the nose. It seems, no matter what
    your profession, if you do not, or cannot, understand something, you are
    afraid of it and attack it. Chem/cut doctors are no exception and attack
    Alternative methods.

    Fear drives it. I have had much more success with Alternative practicioners
    than Chem/Cut practitioners for my 53 years and so have almost all the
    people I know with an open mind. I have also saved the insurance companies
    many dollars, and myself much pain, by avoiding the chem/cut tactics and
    solutions. The old fashioned chem/cut practitioners are becoming the quacks,
    slowly but surely. Their defending by attacking is putting them to bed and
    losing them credibility from the masses.

    It is never good to put somebody, something or some profession down in order
    to raise your self esteem. It almost always works in reverse.

    People taking vitamins are told by doctors, as talk to them, that they have
    the most expensive urine. They shouldn't comment on things they know
    absolutely nothing about.

    "Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Nobody classes psychologists, physiotherapists, and massage therapists
    as "alternative." Nor people who take vitamins, either, these days
    (most doctors do).

    "Talk therapy" isn't magical when it's aimed at somebody who
    understands it. It's only magic when it isn't.

  17. Sbharrisatsignix.netcom.com said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Physical thrapists are now just starting to realize that they are


    part
    of alternative medicine. All you got to do is do a Google search on
    it.

    Hey, Moron! I told you to do a Google Search. What is your problem?
    Don't you listen to your patients. Ha, ... Hah, Ha! What patients?

    The Quack-Files: "Alternative" Physical Therapy?
    http://www.geocities.com/healthbase/df_article.html

    The trend is so long standing and so pronnouced that even the
    quackbusters are complaining about it.
    ..
    Just thought that you might have half a brain. Boy are you ignorant!

  18. In article <1105901134.dae58c20891d2045f2e84463103cdf63@teranews>,
    Piezo Guru <[email hidden]> wrote:

    .......................

    Quoted message said:

    People taking vitamins are told by doctors, as talk to them, that they have
    the most expensive urine. They shouldn't comment on things they know
    absolutely nothing about.

    Those doctors are not up on things. There is much
    disagreement on how much to take, and as usual, there
    is a HUGE amount of individual variation, which also
    the medical profession has great problems with.

    I have been advised by "mainstream" doctors to increase
    my intake of certain vitamins. The ones I am taking are
    not very expensive, either. The biggest problem here is
    that there is not enough being done on how to find the
    best dosage for each person.

    Dr. Harris knows what he is talking about.

    Quoted message said:

    "Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Nobody classes psychologists, physiotherapists, and massage therapists
    as "alternative." Nor people who take vitamins, either, these days
    (most doctors do).

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    "Talk therapy" isn't magical when it's aimed at somebody who
    understands it. It's only magic when it isn't.

    --
    This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
    are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
    Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
    [email hidden] Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

  19. In article <1105901134.dae58c20891d2045f2e84463103cdf63@teranews>,
    Piezo Guru <[email hidden]> wrote:

    .......................

    Quoted message said:

    People taking vitamins are told by doctors, as talk to them, that they have
    the most expensive urine. They shouldn't comment on things they know
    absolutely nothing about.

    Those doctors are not up on things. There is much
    disagreement on how much to take, and as usual, there
    is a HUGE amount of individual variation, which also
    the medical profession has great problems with.

    I have been advised by "mainstream" doctors to increase
    my intake of certain vitamins. The ones I am taking are
    not very expensive, either. The biggest problem here is
    that there is not enough being done on how to find the
    best dosage for each person.

    Dr. Harris knows what he is talking about.

    Quoted message said:

    "Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Nobody classes psychologists, physiotherapists, and massage therapists
    as "alternative." Nor people who take vitamins, either, these days
    (most doctors do).

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    "Talk therapy" isn't magical when it's aimed at somebody who
    understands it. It's only magic when it isn't.

    --
    This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
    are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
    Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
    [email hidden] Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

  20. Herman Rubin said:

    Dr. Harris knows what he is talking about.

    Ha, ... Hah, Ha!

    Nope!

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