ARBR has gone downhill

Quoted message said:

Ed Dolan started out in good humor to counter liberal biases on arbr, but he has over done it.

Which from the tenor of your missive was OK until the "liberal bias" just drove him to the brink
of sanity!

Puh-leeze.

Quoted message said:

Tom Sherman, for one, posts many liberal OT posts.

Horrors! We must find out where Tom lives! Where'd I put my torch and pitchfork from the good ole
brownshirt days?!?!?!

Maybe you should quit trying to be such an uptight control freak and do what everyone else
does--ignore or killfile the obvious flamage and get on with your life.

Like it or not, unmoderated newsgroups are conversation. And when people start conversing, the
subject matter is going to meander. There's going to be stuff spilling over the sides and making a
mess. Step over the yucky parts and keep going.

Whining about it sure isn't going to change anything. People have been carping about OT posts in
every newsgroup (except maybe alt.tasteless) since time began (Jan 1, 1970).

And since this is a recumbent newsgroup, your subject line should read: "ARBR is really
going UPHILL"

PT, Thank you for demonstrating exactly what I was talking about. Al

"Porquer Torquer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Ed Dolan started out in good humor to counter liberal biases on

arbr,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but he has over done it.

Which from the tenor of your missive was OK until the "liberal bias" just drove him to the brink
of sanity!

Puh-leeze.

Quoted message said:

Tom Sherman, for one, posts many liberal OT posts.

Horrors! We must find out where Tom lives! Where'd I put my torch and pitchfork from the good ole
brownshirt days?!?!?!

Maybe you should quit trying to be such an uptight control freak and do what everyone else
does--ignore or killfile the obvious flamage and get on with your life.

Like it or not, unmoderated newsgroups are conversation. And when people start conversing, the
subject matter is going to meander. There's going to be stuff spilling over the sides and making a
mess. Step over the yucky parts and keep going.

Whining about it sure isn't going to change anything. People have been carping about OT posts in
every newsgroup (except maybe alt.tasteless) since time began (Jan 1, 1970).

And since this is a recumbent newsgroup, your subject line should read: "ARBR is really
going UPHILL"

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

PT, Thank you for demonstrating exactly what I was talking about. Al

About a year ago (Date: 2002-12-02 12:19:15 PST), I made an early New Years Resolution to not
participate in OT inflammatory posts.

google.comgroupsOpen ↗
&selm=MPG.18557c2e31e13217989701%40News.CIS.DFN.DE

For the most part, I have kept that promise. At the time I made my resolution, I invited others to
join me. IIRC, I got few takers. By tolerating others irreverent, obscene and bigoted comments, has
brought this NG full circle. Good posters are leaving and what we have left floating at the top of
the cream pitcher are a few turds.

Maybe people like Al and Bryan will drift back, maybe not. Perhaps others just as valued will come
on board and replace these. I hope both happen. Without quality, this group will atrophy. If you let
it be dominated by a few foul mouthed jerks, ARBR will certainly lose its mission. Only by speaking
out against the foul-mouthed jerks will they get the message. Feeding their vitriol will only
continue the downward spiral into the sewage pits. It is your choice, you can speak up or you can
leave. If you leave, 'they' win.

I have been here over four years now. I've learned a lot. I've shared a lot. I've had the chance to
put some faces with names. I would like that to continue. There are a lot of you that I haven't had
a chance to ride with yet. I hope to do that with as many of you as I can.

--
Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager clee.orgclee.orgOpen ↗
- Bellaire, TX USA -

"Al Kubeluis" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hello Bikers, I have practically stopped using arbr because of off topic stuff and personal
attacks and nit picking. OT has almost destroyed arbr. The attacks on Bryan Ball re his sign off
message are another example of the venom and nit picking of a few on this group. (Bryan
contributes immensely to recumbents and cycling with his Bentrideronline.)

I know next to nothing about Mr. Ball. For all I know he is one of the giants of the earth. But I do
know that in his posts to this newsgroup he has never had a kind word to say about me, so I of
course I just reciprocate the sentiment. What is wrong with that?

Quoted message said:

Ed Dolan started out in good humor to counter liberal biases on arbr, but he has over done it.
But Ed Dolan is not the only, or even main, OT poster. Tom Sherman, for one, posts many
liberal OT posts.

Thanks for being even handed at least. You are one of the few. I have escalated my rhetoric in
response to personal attacks on me from my liberal adversaries. Politics is not for children. It is
serious business and I am dead serious.

Quoted message said:

I'm just plain sick of OT posts. Yes, one filters posts, but is it worthwhile, especially when
there are good alternatives as Bentrideronline and Yahoo Groups. There are many here who focus
on biking and contribute worthwhile ideas, humor, and friendship, but these folks are getting
drowned in a sea of politics and personal attacks and nit picking that has nothing to do with
biking.

Don't ever go to a newsgroup for friendship! Even when you think you have found it, it is an
illusion. This is cyberspace and it is for the exchange of words only. There is reality and then
there is the Internet. Don't ever confuse the two.

Quoted message said:

Those who want to talk politics, go to a politics newsgroup. Those that want to fight, email
duel. And those that need to show how clever they are, go to a Mensa group. Try to recall
those that you really like and who have left arbr over the years or who hardly post any more
and ask "Why?".

Al, no one can stay on a newsgroup forever. We all of us wear out our welcomes, some sooner than
others. I think 2 years is about right. Then it is time to move on to something else.

I have noticed a constant change of posters for the short time I have been here. Of course there is
a hard core of regulars. Those seem to be the ones that are complaining the most. They should
probably think about moving on.

ARBR will always be here and will go on as always. The OT threads will always just be a small number
and easily ignored by those who want to ignore them. 90% of the threads will be recumbent related
topics as always. And that will more than satisfy most folks.

Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Porquer Torquer <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

[...]

Quoted message said:

Maybe you should quit trying to be such an uptight control freak and do what everyone else
does--ignore or killfile the obvious flamage and get on with your life.

Like it or not, unmoderated newsgroups are conversation. And when people start conversing, the
subject matter is going to meander. There's going to be stuff spilling over the sides and making a
mess. Step over the yucky parts and keep going.

Whining about it sure isn't going to change anything. People have been carping about OT posts in
every newsgroup (except maybe alt.tasteless) since time began (Jan 1, 1970).

And since this is a recumbent newsgroup, your subject line should read: "ARBR is really
going UPHILL"

Porquer Torquer, where have you been all my life? At last someone is saying something sensible about
OT and how human conversation works. That is all posting is, it is just conversation back and forth
between two individuals that others can get in on whenever and wherever they want. And then it can
branch off into totally unexpected directions and end up in the oddest of places. Just like in real
life! I have never posted anything that others did not respond to in a way that I could not have
predicted. That is why a newsgroup is endlessly fascinating.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Hi Cletus,

I have been reading and posting here since 1998. Since then, I have met or talked on the phone with
dozens of folks here. I have ridden or raced with a good number of these people, and it has been a
pleasure to do so. It is true that the NG has been significantly "dumbed down" by OT drivel and many
of the quality posters are gone, but then in the old days I never used to get 250 spam emails a day
like I do now either. It seems that banality is the rule of the day now, and we should all be
prepared to deal with that or leave.

A sure sign that this group has gone to the dogs is the fact that all the women have been chased
off. Or anyone with any level of sensibility for that matter. I remember the good old days when
there were posts by the likes of Beth, or Marci, or Melanie, and I am sure I am leaving out others.
I miss folks with a good sense of humor like Scott, or those that have a passion for cycling and
broad experience and the ability to express themselves beautifully like Kent Peterson.

I also remember saars.lists.recumbent and the really good technical information to be found there
before it died. The point I am making is that the best recumbent posting is no longer going on in
this NG - it is a wasteland now to be scanned periodically but given low priority because it is so
troll infested. Permanently, it seems. The bent bent posts are to be found at other sources now,
which I will not divulge for obvious reasons.

Cheers, Derek

"Al Kubeluis" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hello Bikers, I have practically stopped using arbr because of off topic stuff and personal
attacks and nit picking. OT has almost destroyed arbr.

I hear you, this place has gone to the dogs now that those lamer benter types took over and ran out
all us euro type roadies.

One thing bike riding teaches us is that for every "downhill" there will be an uphill.....

"Al Kubeluis" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hello Bikers, I have practically stopped using arbr because of off topic stuff and personal
attacks and nit picking. OT has almost destroyed arbr. The attacks on Bryan Ball re his sign off
message are another example

of

Quoted message said:

the venom and nit picking of a few on this group. (Bryan contributes immensely to recumbents and
cycling with his Bentrideronline.) Ed Dolan started out in good humor to counter liberal biases on
arbr, but he has over done it. But Ed Dolan is not the only, or even main, OT poster. Tom Sherman,

for

Quoted message said:

one, posts many liberal OT posts. I'm just plain sick of OT posts. Yes, one filters posts, but is
it worthwhile, especially when there are good alternatives as Bentrideronline and Yahoo Groups.
There are many here who focus on biking and contribute worthwhile

ideas,

Quoted message said:

humor, and friendship, but these folks are getting drowned in a sea of politics and personal
attacks and nit picking that has nothing to do with biking. Those who want to talk politics, go
to a politics newsgroup. Those that want to fight, email duel. And those that need to show how
clever they are, go to a Mensa group. Try to recall those that you really like and who have left
arbr over

the

Quoted message said:

years or who hardly post any more and ask "Why?". Sincerely, Al Kubeluis

Howdy folks!

I've been reading this newsgroup for quite some time, but only within the last few months have I
started to contribute posts and whatnot. You know what works best with this stuff? IGNORE IT.

Filters or no filters, is it REALLY that big a deal to just ignore what you know is likely to be
[censored]? The offending parties will continue ONLY if they have an audience. If we collectively QUIT
responding to the [censored], it will eventually die down and perhaps even go away. It may take awhile,
but time is on our side with this.

The gray area here is that there are a handful of posters who are equally as offensive and baiting
as some of the more notable examples but they actually contribute topic related stuff now and again.
What I'd say to those is to grow up. I mean really! What purpose are you serving spouting off in
here? If you want to make some real impact, think globally, act locally. Get involved in the scene
within your own region. You certainly aren't impressing me by writing tripe in a BIKING NEWSGROUP.
When you think about it, the folks that are doing this are coming off looking like idiots, NOT so
much because of their message (or lack of it) but because of their method of delivery. You offenders
out there have chosen a biking newsgroup to spout forth? Grow the hell up.

I'll still be here, writing and asking questions about recumbents and related. I say to those who
really are thinking of leaving, please don't. In the big scheme of things, this is but a minor
nuisance. Let the political idiots and baiters on here be silly all they want. If they've no
audience in which to play on, they'll go bye-bye soon enough.

--
"Sea" ya! --Lars S. Mulford "You can find evil anywhere you look. The question is, why are
you looking?"

Cletus,

I was one that openly chose not to join you in your resolution. I thought that OTs were still at a
workable level. You were right. I was wrong.

Gary McCarty, Greenspeed GTO, Salt Lake City

Cletus D. Lee <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

About a year ago (Date: 2002-12-02 12:19:15 PST), I made an early New Years Resolution to not
participate in OT inflammatory posts.

"Cletus D. Lee" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Without quality, this group will atrophy. If you let it be dominated by a few foul mouthed jerks,
ARBR will certainly lose its mission. Only by speaking out against the foul-mouthed jerks will
they get the message. Feeding their vitriol will only continue the downward spiral into the sewage
pits. It is your choice, you can speak up or you can leave. If you leave, 'they' win.

Yes. Yes.

Those bent on shaping the group with their slanderous, vulgar, offensive, and abusive (mal)content
are clearly revealed for what they *are* and what they want to be *known for* by their words. That
they seek to see their names as dominant in the ARBR newsgroup listings is telling.

We can choose to abandon the newsgroup to them in disgust. Or not. We can choose to let them "push
our buttons". Or not.

It seems unlikely they will be changed, so we must be.

Take to the newsgroup with a modicum of decorum and good humor and respect. Don't leave. Post. Post.
Post. Raise the signal level.

Jon Meinecke

I'm _not_ trolling here but you sorta forgot to add "Don't contribute to threads about the sad state
of the group or drama queen farewell threads." Almost more of these now or maybe I just got all the
Dolan/Sherman- and Love vs. the world-threads killed off.

Yes in a perfect world we would only post about recumbents here but sadly it isnt a perfect world.
Just be happy we are not a target for spammers. Now thats noise.

These things most appropriately come in cycles. There was one in the summer of 2000 too. Group
didn't selfdestruct then and I doubt it will now.

M.

"Mikael Seierup" skrev...

Quoted message said:

I'm _not_ trolling here but you sorta forgot to add "Don't contribute to threads about the sad
state of the group or drama queen farewell threads."

Sorry. Grumpiness attack when I wrote this. Still all these threads arent reducing the noise in
the group.

M.

Gee I take a holiday from this News Group and when I return you are talking about it self
destructing.

Have been living on Yahoo in some "Moderated: Groups and observed that when someone goes OT, they
get one warning and they do it again and are banned for life.

They even address the issue via all the standing members take an on-line vote and 51% and your ass
is toast for life.

I would have thougt that everytime someone is fragged by the group, membership would fall, but the
opposite happened.

IF this group was Moderated the same way...there would be like 6 active members and Lorenzo L. Love
would be one of the 6...then self destruction would look really good.

I am Not a big fan of censorship myself...but for many weeks here it was like mentioning the word
Recumbent was OT.

Seems to be getting back to bent cycling and less about Iraqi Oil and all the other
non-cycling topics.

Joshua AKA Wile E.Coyote
*****
"Mikael Seierup" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm _not_ trolling here but you sorta forgot to add "Don't contribute to threads about the sad
state of the group or drama queen farewell threads." Almost more of these now or maybe I just got
all the Dolan/Sherman- and Love vs. the world-threads killed off.

Yes in a perfect world we would only post about recumbents here but sadly it isnt a perfect world.
Just be happy we are not a target for spammers. Now thats noise.

These things most appropriately come in cycles. There was one in the summer of 2000 too. Group
didn't selfdestruct then and I doubt it will now.

M.

It's rather ironic that the off topic subjects are the ones with the longest threads. Makes you
wonder if the subject of recumbents is boring. Perhaps it's the same old stupid [censored] regurgitated
year after year. How many times do we have to read about numb feet? Or how about Pedaling
techniques or "What type of outfit should I wear with my stupid looking bent?" Or how about the age
old question that every Rabid Dork ponders at, "Wouldn't I look cool with a propeller mounted on my
stupid helmet?" However, all these subjects are below my threshold of pain. It's not the people
here expressing their off-topic, bed-wetting political views, it's stupid subjects such as, " I
place a catheter on my penis so that I can relieve myself without stopping to [censored] like a 'normal
human being'. So who's going to 'One-up' on that statement and confess, "Well I too have a catheter
and have even made a hole in the bottom of my seat so that I can [censored] heehee, good thing I got
Planet bike fenders,heeehee." At first glance these statements sound hilarious, but these people
are dead serious!!

R. Horwitz www.hellbentcycles.com

"Al Kubeluis" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hello Bikers, I have practically stopped using arbr because of off topic stuff and personal
attacks and nit picking. OT has almost destroyed arbr. The attacks on Bryan Ball re his sign off
message are another example

of

Quoted message said:

the venom and nit picking of a few on this group. (Bryan contributes immensely to recumbents and
cycling with his Bentrideronline.) Ed Dolan started out in good humor to counter liberal biases on
arbr, but he has over done it. But Ed Dolan is not the only, or even main, OT poster. Tom Sherman,

for

Quoted message said:

one, posts many liberal OT posts. I'm just plain sick of OT posts. Yes, one filters posts, but is
it worthwhile, especially when there are good alternatives as Bentrideronline and Yahoo Groups.
There are many here who focus on biking and contribute worthwhile

ideas,

Quoted message said:

humor, and friendship, but these folks are getting drowned in a sea of politics and personal
attacks and nit picking that has nothing to do with biking. Those who want to talk politics, go
to a politics newsgroup. Those that want to fight, email duel. And those that need to show how
clever they are, go to a Mensa group. Try to recall those that you really like and who have left
arbr over

the

Quoted message said:

years or who hardly post any more and ask "Why?". Sincerely, Al Kubeluis

Yup... The part that pisses me off the most is that there are maybe 10 people on this board that
cause 90% of the [censored]. i.e. OT, flames, whatever... And what makes it worse, they have driven many
high quality, high profile people off this NG. Almost like they relish the chance to feel like a
"big man" and flame Bryan Ball or Fast Freddy or Matt Weaver or whomever and drive them off this
group forever. I, for one, am [censored] that there is not more respect in this NG. Can you imagine if
everyone treated each other with respect? What if we had Bryan, Freddy, Matt, maybe even Sam
Whittingham or Damjan Zabovnik participating in this NG? What kind of info might be gleaned from
their minds and experiences? They participate in other online groups, why aren't they here? Because
we have a handfull of self-rightous [censored] who delight in pissing people off for fun. How cool
would it be to have manufacturers polling this NG for news and ideas? I've tried several times, to
get usefull info and public opinion on upcoming projects; Such as Calfee's Stilletto, and my
EZ-Rider and EZ-Tadpole designs. Out of 20 responces I'll get maybe 1 or 2 that have any serious and
usefull content. It's a shame really, lots of folks here have been given a chance to take small part
in the creation of a new bicycle and all they can do is flame away and bet on when and if such a
project will be finished. So freakin' sad, what are you doing on this NG if this is not what you
came here for? So to all you OT posters, flamers, trolls, etc... get a life, give some respect,
maybe this NG could be cool if we treated each other, like, well, you were standing next to the
person you are responding to. Now I'm being an OT Flamer too! See what happens! 🙂

"Lars S. Mulford" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Howdy folks!

I've been reading this newsgroup for quite some time, but only within the last few months have I
started to contribute posts and whatnot. You know what works best with this stuff? IGNORE IT.

Filters or no filters, is it REALLY that big a deal to just ignore what you know is likely to
be [censored]?

You are quite correct here Lars. Filter are for idiots who can't bear the thought of ignoring a
post. They have got to read it. Of course I don't blame them when it is one of my posts. I realize I
am irresistible!

Quoted message said:

The offending parties will continue ONLY if they have an audience. If we collectively QUIT
responding to the [censored], it will eventually die down and perhaps even go away. It may take awhile,
but time is on our side with this.

The gray area here is that there are a handful of posters who are equally as offensive and
baiting as some of the more notable examples but they actually contribute topic related stuff now
and again.

So it is OK with you if some of these idiots post their liberal agendas as long as they are also
posting some recumbent related stuff? I don't see it that way at all. I can do my rejoinders to any
and all the liberal posts and I do not have to post any recumbent related stuff in order to justify
it. Maybe you should do a bit of growing up!

Quoted message said:

What I'd say to those is to grow up. I mean really! What purpose are you serving spouting off in
here? If you want to make some real impact, think globally, act locally. Get involved in the scene
within your own region. You certainly aren't impressing me by writing tripe in a BIKING NEWSGROUP.

I am not bent on impressing anyone, but I am bent on refuting all the liberal obnoxious posting that
goes on here. You will find me a perfect gentleman on recumbent related stuff (if and when I ever
get around to it) but I am in battle mode when I am contending with liberals, whom I regard as
traitors to this country.

Quoted message said:

When you think about it, the folks that are doing this are coming off looking like idiots, NOT so
much because of their message (or lack of it) but because of their method of delivery. You
offenders out there have chosen a biking newsgroup to spout forth? Grow the hell up.

Pay attention to what I am saying , now how I am saying it. Unless you are a liberal yourself of
course. In that case, apply it to yourself in full measure.

Quoted message said:

I'll still be here, writing and asking questions about recumbents and related. I say to those who
really are thinking of leaving, please don't.

I encourage all those who want to leave to leave. They won't be missed and there will be others to
fill their shoes and to carry on. No one is indispensable or even important to a newsgroup for
heaven's sake. Try to think of yourself as a cog in a machine and you will have realized your true
importance in the over all scheme of things.

Quoted message said:

In the big scheme of things, this is but a minor nuisance. Let the political idiots and baiters
on here be silly all they want. If they've no audience in which to play on, they'll go bye-bye
soon enough.

That is what I have been saying all along. But this newsgroup is replete with anal-obsessive types
who are controllers and can't stand the thought of anyone except themselves having anything to say.
I can't tell you how much I am relishing their frustration.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

[email hidden] (Fabrizio Mazzoleni) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Al Kubeluis" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hello Bikers, I have practically stopped using arbr because of off topic stuff and personal
attacks and nit picking. OT has almost destroyed arbr.

I hear you, this place has gone to the dogs now that those lamer benter types took over and ran
out all us euro type roadies.

Damn it, Fab! Get back on this newsgroup! Only you know how to wake up all the zombies snoring away
here. A newsgroup without zest is dead, and that is the one thing you know how to supply in
abundance. Old Harv will rise to your bait each and every time as will many of the other idiots
residing here. Keep up the good work even though you are a one note Johnny!

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Wow. At least that was a rather original and perceptive comment :-)

Hellbent Rick <[email hidden]> wrote:
: It's rather ironic that the off topic subjects are the ones with the longest threads. Makes you
: wonder if the subject of recumbents is boring. Perhaps it's the same old stupid [censored] regurgitated
: year after year. How many times do we have to read about numb feet? Or how about Pedaling
: techniques or "What type of outfit should I wear with my stupid looking bent?" Or how about the
: age old question that every Rabid Dork ponders at, "Wouldn't I look cool with a propeller mounted
: on my stupid helmet?"

These people should learn to use the Google groups search. Would we need a FAQ for the NG? Then we
could just go "RTFM!!!" whenever a newbie posts here.

--
Risto Varanka | helsinki.fi~rvarankaOpen ↗ [email hidden]