Apple pie question - wny the air pocket?

On Wed 27 Jul 2005 10:56:15p, Bock wrote in rec.food.cooking:

Quoted message said:

I have extremely limited experience in making pies, two crusted pies.
My experience is limited to making a few 7" apple pies.

Why is there a huge space between pie filling and pie crust?, an air
pocket.

Quite simply, the top pastry "sets" before the apples cook, soften, and
somewhat shrink, leaving the space in between. It's not uncommon for this
to happen, even with commercial apple pies.

It is a good idea to put a heaping amount of apples in a pie since they do
cook down.

Baking is somewhat of a dilemma. One needs to start out at a high
temperature for a shorter time, before reducing the temperature, to insure
that the bottom crust browns well and bakes before the juices from the
fruit saturate it. At the same time, the higher heat causes the top crust
to set faster.

A higher ratio of fat to flour allows the pastry to be softer and conform
more to the filling. Can you post your pastry recipe?

--
Wayne Boatwright *¿*
____________________________________________

Give me a smart idiot over a stupid genius any day.
Sam Goldwyn, 1882-1974

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My grandmother used to microwave the apple filling and
get it to pre-shrink. Then put in the pie crust and bake
for a lot less time than normal.

She is always ahead of the technology curve, getting a
microwave in the '70's, operator of the first telephone
switchboard in NE Pennsylvania, driving a model T when it
wasn't proper (or legal she didn't have a license then)for
a lady to drive. and writes family via email, etc. Cool eh?

I have followed suit and always pre-cook my apple filling. You
will see how much it reduces in just a short time. (5 - 10 minutes
full power in the microwave. The top crust on my pies is always just
1/4" or so above the filling. I lean heavily on the amount of apple
slices in the filling and don't add gelatin or any thickeners. I do
pour off the excess liquid after cooking the apples in the microwave,
then add the sugar and seasonings.

Perfect! Now if I could find better apples here in Arizona
worth making a pie with. Best I can find is some Granny Smiths at
Albertsons and their just so-so.

Bart D. Hull
[email hidden]
Tempe, Arizona

Check http://www.inficad.com/~bdhull/engine.html
for my Subaru Engine Conversion
Check http://www.inficad.com/~bdhull/fuselage.html
for Tango II I'm building.

Remove -nospam to reply via email.

Wayne Boatwright said:

On Wed 27 Jul 2005 10:56:15p, Bock wrote in rec.food.cooking:

Quoted message said:

I have extremely limited experience in making pies, two crusted pies.
My experience is limited to making a few 7" apple pies.

Why is there a huge space between pie filling and pie crust?, an air
pocket.

Quite simply, the top pastry "sets" before the apples cook, soften, and
somewhat shrink, leaving the space in between. It's not uncommon for this
to happen, even with commercial apple pies.

It is a good idea to put a heaping amount of apples in a pie since they do
cook down.

Baking is somewhat of a dilemma. One needs to start out at a high
temperature for a shorter time, before reducing the temperature, to insure
that the bottom crust browns well and bakes before the juices from the
fruit saturate it. At the same time, the higher heat causes the top crust
to set faster.

A higher ratio of fat to flour allows the pastry to be softer and conform
more to the filling. Can you post your pastry recipe?

On Wed 27 Jul 2005 11:43:40p, Bart D. Hull wrote in rec.food.cooking:

Quoted message said:

My grandmother used to microwave the apple filling and
get it to pre-shrink. Then put in the pie crust and bake
for a lot less time than normal.

She is always ahead of the technology curve, getting a
microwave in the '70's, operator of the first telephone
switchboard in NE Pennsylvania, driving a model T when it
wasn't proper (or legal she didn't have a license then)for
a lady to drive. and writes family via email, etc. Cool eh?

I have followed suit and always pre-cook my apple filling. You
will see how much it reduces in just a short time. (5 - 10 minutes
full power in the microwave. The top crust on my pies is always just
1/4" or so above the filling. I lean heavily on the amount of apple
slices in the filling and don't add gelatin or any thickeners. I do
pour off the excess liquid after cooking the apples in the microwave,
then add the sugar and seasonings.

Perfect! Now if I could find better apples here in Arizona
worth making a pie with. Best I can find is some Granny Smiths at
Albertsons and their just so-so.

Bart D. Hull
[email hidden]
Tempe, Arizona

Bart, sometimes try a mixture of McIntosh and Golden Delicious or Jonagold.
I buy mine at the Superstition Farm Market in either Mesa or AJ. I don't
pre-cook mine, never thought of it. I rarely have a gap between crust and
filling.

--
Wayne Boatwright *¿*
____________________________________________

Give me a smart idiot over a stupid genius any day.
Sam Goldwyn, 1882-1974

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Wayne Boatwright said:

On Wed 27 Jul 2005 11:43:40p, Bart D. Hull wrote in rec.food.cooking:

Quoted message said:

My grandmother used to microwave the apple filling and
get it to pre-shrink. Then put in the pie crust and bake
for a lot less time than normal.

She is always ahead of the technology curve, getting a
microwave in the '70's, operator of the first telephone
switchboard in NE Pennsylvania, driving a model T when it
wasn't proper (or legal she didn't have a license then)for
a lady to drive. and writes family via email, etc. Cool eh?

I have followed suit and always pre-cook my apple filling. You
will see how much it reduces in just a short time. (5 - 10 minutes
full power in the microwave. The top crust on my pies is always just
1/4" or so above the filling. I lean heavily on the amount of apple
slices in the filling and don't add gelatin or any thickeners. I do
pour off the excess liquid after cooking the apples in the microwave,
then add the sugar and seasonings.

Perfect! Now if I could find better apples here in Arizona
worth making a pie with. Best I can find is some Granny Smiths at
Albertsons and their just so-so.

Bart D. Hull
[email hidden]
Tempe, Arizona

Bart, sometimes try a mixture of McIntosh and Golden Delicious or
Jonagold. I buy mine at the Superstition Farm Market in either Mesa
or AJ. I don't pre-cook mine, never thought of it. I rarely have a
gap between crust and filling.

I've been told (but don't know from experience) granny smith's are NOT great
for pie filling. As for the gap in the crust, isn't there some sort of
gadget called a pie bird? Ah yes, available at http://www.lehmans.com/
It's used to let the steam escape better and the filling won't bubble over
from the slits cut in the top crust. Might also help with the gap between
the filling and the crust, but I don't know. They just look cute 🙂

Jill

On Wed 27 Jul 2005 11:58:27p, jmcquown wrote in rec.food.cooking:

Quoted message said:

Wayne Boatwright said:

On Wed 27 Jul 2005 11:43:40p, Bart D. Hull wrote in rec.food.cooking:

Quoted message said:

My grandmother used to microwave the apple filling and
get it to pre-shrink. Then put in the pie crust and bake
for a lot less time than normal.

She is always ahead of the technology curve, getting a
microwave in the '70's, operator of the first telephone
switchboard in NE Pennsylvania, driving a model T when it
wasn't proper (or legal she didn't have a license then)for
a lady to drive. and writes family via email, etc. Cool eh?

I have followed suit and always pre-cook my apple filling. You
will see how much it reduces in just a short time. (5 - 10 minutes
full power in the microwave. The top crust on my pies is always just
1/4" or so above the filling. I lean heavily on the amount of apple
slices in the filling and don't add gelatin or any thickeners. I do
pour off the excess liquid after cooking the apples in the microwave,
then add the sugar and seasonings.

Perfect! Now if I could find better apples here in Arizona
worth making a pie with. Best I can find is some Granny Smiths at
Albertsons and their just so-so.

Bart D. Hull
[email hidden]
Tempe, Arizona

Bart, sometimes try a mixture of McIntosh and Golden Delicious or
Jonagold. I buy mine at the Superstition Farm Market in either Mesa
or AJ. I don't pre-cook mine, never thought of it. I rarely have a
gap between crust and filling.

I've been told (but don't know from experience) granny smith's are NOT
great for pie filling. As for the gap in the crust, isn't there some
sort of gadget called a pie bird? Ah yes, available at
http://www.lehmans.com/ It's used to let the steam escape better and the
filling won't bubble over from the slits cut in the top crust. Might
also help with the gap between the filling and the crust, but I don't
know. They just look cute 🙂

I know many people seem to like granny smith's for pie, but it's not my
favorite. Hmm... I have a pie bird, but I've never used it for fruit
pies, only meat pies. I should try it sometime. They do look kinda cute.
:-)

--
Wayne Boatwright *¿*
____________________________________________

Give me a smart idiot over a stupid genius any day.
Sam Goldwyn, 1882-1974

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On Wed 27 Jul 2005 11:58:27p, jmcquown wrote in rec.food.cooking:

Hey Jill... OT, but curious. I noticed in a recent post you referred to
"DH". Did I miss something? Did you get married?

--
Wayne Boatwright *¿*
____________________________________________

Give me a smart idiot over a stupid genius any day.
Sam Goldwyn, 1882-1974

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Wayne Boatwright said:

On Wed 27 Jul 2005 11:58:27p, jmcquown wrote in rec.food.cooking:

Hey Jill... OT, but curious. I noticed in a recent post you
referred to "DH". Did I miss something? Did you get married?

"DH" to me means Dear Heart. But thanks for asking 🙂 Email me, I'll tell
you a fascinating story LOL

Jill

Bock said:

First apple pie made I cut apples to fill pie plate. When cooked it
was like there was very little filling when it cooked down.

When I make an apple pie I like the apples to be about three times the
height of the pie plate. It will fall as it cooks. My favorite apples
are Jonagold and Braeburn, but if I want to make an apple pie, I will
use whatever apples I have.

Becca

jmcquown said:

I've been told (but don't know from experience) granny smith's are NOT great
for pie filling.

They are if that's the best you can get. If I still lived in the
midwest, there would be lots of better apples. As it is, granny smith
is as good as it gets.

Quoted message said:

As for the gap in the crust, isn't there some sort of
gadget called a pie bird? Ah yes, available at http://www.lehmans.com/
It's used to let the steam escape better and the filling won't bubble over
from the slits cut in the top crust. Might also help with the gap between
the filling and the crust, but I don't know. They just look cute 🙂

The gap is helped by a slightly softer crust, one that collapses and
forms to the apples as everything bakes.

Bart D. Hull said:

My grandmother used to microwave the apple filling and
get it to pre-shrink. Then put in the pie crust and bake
for a lot less time than normal.

She is always ahead of the technology curve, getting a
microwave in the '70's, operator of the first telephone
switchboard in NE Pennsylvania, driving a model T when it
wasn't proper (or legal she didn't have a license then)for
a lady to drive. and writes family via email, etc. Cool eh?

I have followed suit and always pre-cook my apple filling. You
will see how much it reduces in just a short time. (5 - 10 minutes
full power in the microwave. The top crust on my pies is always just
1/4" or so above the filling. I lean heavily on the amount of apple
slices in the filling and don't add gelatin or any thickeners. I do
pour off the excess liquid after cooking the apples in the microwave,
then add the sugar and seasonings.

Perfect! Now if I could find better apples here in Arizona
worth making a pie with. Best I can find is some Granny Smiths at
Albertsons and their just so-so.

Bart D. Hull
[email hidden]
Tempe, Arizona

Check http://www.inficad.com/~bdhull/engine.html
for my Subaru Engine Conversion
Check http://www.inficad.com/~bdhull/fuselage.html
for Tango II I'm building.

Remove -nospam to reply via email.

That's an interesting approach. I think I would let the
apples cool, if I did that. Or I would avoid the issue
entirely by using a crumb topping.

--
Jean B.

Bock said:

I have extremely limited experience in making pies, two crusted pies.
My experience is limited to making a few 7" apple pies.

Why is there a huge space between pie filling and pie crust?, an air
pocket.
First apple pie made I cut apples to fill pie plate. When cooked it was
like there
was very little filling when it cooked down.

This pie I doubled the amount of Granny Smith apples and it effectively
was double the height of the pie and cooked down to a filling that was
the same level as the metal rim of the pie plate. The crust however
formed a dome, hallow the height of the original filling. It tasted
great. Everything is okay but why this extreme dome of crust.

The apples shrunk as they cooked because the walls of the cells
softened and collapsed, the liquid came out, and so forth. My sister
solved this problem (she's the apple pie baker) by mixing the apples
with the sugar etc. before even starting the crust. While they are
sitting there, the sugar is drawing out the excess juice, so the
apples don't shrink as much during cooking.

Sue(tm)
Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself!

jmcquown said:

I've been told (but don't know from experience) granny smith's are NOT great
for pie filling.

YMMV, but I prefer either Golden Delicious or Pippin, but if I can't
find either, will settle for Gravenstein or Granny Smith.

Quoted message said:

As for the gap in the crust, isn't there some sort of
gadget called a pie bird? Ah yes, available at http://www.lehmans.com/
It's used to let the steam escape better and the filling won't bubble over
from the slits cut in the top crust. Might also help with the gap between
the filling and the crust, but I don't know. They just look cute 🙂

I always just cut vents in the crust, although the pie bird *is* cute.

Terry "Squeaks" Pulliam Burd
AAC(F)BV66.0748.CA

"If the soup had been as hot as the claret, if the claret had been as
old as the bird, and if the bird's breasts had been as full as the
waitress's, it would have been a very good dinner."

-- Duncan Hines

To reply, replace "spaminator" with "cox"

Bock said:

I have extremely limited experience in making pies, two crusted pies.
My experience is limited to making a few 7" apple pies.

Why is there a huge space between pie filling and pie crust?, an air
pocket.
First apple pie made I cut apples to fill pie plate. When cooked it was
like there
was very little filling when it cooked down.

This pie I doubled the amount of Granny Smith apples and it effectively
was double the height of the pie and cooked down to a filling that was
the same level as the metal rim of the pie plate. The crust however
formed a dome, hallow the height of the original filling. It tasted
great. Everything is okay but why this extreme dome of crust.

The crust was a basic lard/flour/salt/water crust rolled as thin as I
can get it on wax paper, probably 1/8 inch, very nice, peeled off over
the pie plate for the bottom and the top is peeled off over the filling
and
crimped with fingers. If anything, the crust should collapse.

The filling was apples sliced evenly, sugar, cinnamon, flour, and dollop
of butter. Baked 50 minutes at 400 till juices bubble from top air
slits in pie.

I can't think of anything else I can tell you. Thanks for any comments.

I personally prefer Dutch apple pie over regular pie. I simply combine
equal parts butter and sugar and then add in enough flour to make a
crumbly streusel topping. As for the apples, I prefer to use a
combination of apples. I like to use a mixture of Jonathans and Granny
Smith with a McIntosh added in for extra flavor. McIntosh apples taste
great cooked but they fall apart easily so that's why I don't use them
as the main variety of apple in an apple pie. I hate the Delicious
varieties, no flavor and too mealy.

Curly Sue said:

The apples shrunk as they cooked because the walls of the cells
softened and collapsed, the liquid came out, and so forth. My sister
solved this problem (she's the apple pie baker) by mixing the apples
with the sugar etc. before even starting the crust. While they are
sitting there, the sugar is drawing out the excess juice, so the
apples don't shrink as much during cooking.

Sue... you've now answered the unasked question about why my
grandmother did it that way. She was a kitchen scientist and didn't
even know it!

Quoted message said:

Quite simply, the top pastry "sets" before the apples cook, soften, and
somewhat shrink, leaving the space in between. It's not uncommon for this
to happen, even with commercial apple pies.

didin't know that. thks.

Quoted message said:

It is a good idea to put a heaping amount of apples in a pie since they do
cook down.

Baking is somewhat of a dilemma. One needs to start out at a high
temperature for a shorter time, before reducing the temperature, to insure
that the bottom crust browns well and bakes before the juices from the
fruit saturate it. At the same time, the higher heat causes the top crust
to set faster.

didn't know that. thks.

Quoted message said:

A higher ratio of fat to flour allows the pastry to be softer and conform
more to the filling. Can you post your pastry recipe?

I make two 7 in pie crusts, top and bottom, rolled thin from the 10
inch pie crust recipe.

1 1/3 cup flour
1/2 tsp salt
1/4 cup lard + 3 tablespoons lard
3-4 tablespoons cold water. I always use 4.

Bake apple pie at 425 for 50 minutes.

Any temperature changes and when to make them would be appreicated.

I think may be cooking it too long as it is boiling and bubling through
the crust
slit holes when I removed it. The apples may have been overcooked as
the apple pieces were less distinctive in shape but as I love apple pie
so much it was the least of my worries.

Bart D. Hull said:

I have followed suit and always pre-cook my apple filling.

Plase excuse my ignorance. When you say you precook your apple filling,
do you
just cook the apples and do you add liquid?

The reason I ask is that I just add 1/4 tsp cinnamon, 6 tablespoons
sugar, 1/4 cup flour, dash salt,
and 1 tablespoon of butter on top flour - so what do I put in the
boildown stage?

Quoted message said:

You
will see how much it reduces in just a short time. (5 - 10 minutes
full power in the microwave. The top crust on my pies is always just
1/4" or so above the filling. I lean heavily on the amount of apple
slices in the filling and don't add gelatin or any thickeners.

Yes, so do I. I use Granny Smith.

Quoted message said:

I do
pour off the excess liquid after cooking the apples in the microwave,
then add the sugar and seasonings.

My apple mix is just right in the pie not precooked so not sure where
your pour off liquid is coming froom.

Quoted message said:

Perfect! Now if I could find better apples here in Arizona
worth making a pie with. Best I can find is some Granny Smiths at
Albertsons and their just so-so.

So very sad. Apples were better when I was a kid, 1960s, but imagine
how good they were in the 1940s and 50s.
The only good part is that commercial pies are either a mix or
thankfully taste worse for the most part.

Quoted message said:

I personally prefer Dutch apple pie over regular pie. I simply combine
equal parts butter and sugar and then add in enough flour to make a
crumbly streusel topping. As for the apples, I prefer to use a
combination of apples.

This top crust would be nice to try. Could you give approximately
amounts
for any sized pie? When you add the butter, sugar flour, is it like
making a pie crust before you form a ball and then you just pat that on
the
top of the pie? Seems okay for a flat pie filling but if you stack the
apples like I do I wonder if it would work?

Suggestions appreciated.

On Sat 30 Jul 2005 11:15:09p, Bock wrote in rec.food.cooking:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quite simply, the top pastry "sets" before the apples cook, soften, and
somewhat shrink, leaving the space in between. It's not uncommon for
this to happen, even with commercial apple pies.

didin't know that. thks.

Quoted message said:

It is a good idea to put a heaping amount of apples in a pie since they
do cook down.

Baking is somewhat of a dilemma. One needs to start out at a high
temperature for a shorter time, before reducing the temperature, to
insure that the bottom crust browns well and bakes before the juices
from the fruit saturate it. At the same time, the higher heat causes
the top crust to set faster.

didn't know that. thks.

Quoted message said:

A higher ratio of fat to flour allows the pastry to be softer and
conform more to the filling. Can you post your pastry recipe?

I make two 7 in pie crusts, top and bottom, rolled thin from the 10
inch pie crust recipe.

1 1/3 cup flour
1/2 tsp salt
1/4 cup lard + 3 tablespoons lard

Make than an even 1/2 cup lard. For comparison purposes, try 1/2
vegetable shortening and 1/2 butter.

Quoted message said:

3-4 tablespoons cold water. I always use 4.

Bake apple pie at 425 for 50 minutes.

Here's the main difference. Bake at 425 for only 15 minutes, then reduce
heat to 350-375 degrees and bake as much as another 45 minutes.

Quoted message said:

Any temperature changes and when to make them would be appreicated.

I think may be cooking it too long as it is boiling and bubling through
the crust
slit holes when I removed it. The apples may have been overcooked as
the apple pieces were less distinctive in shape but as I love apple pie
so much it was the least of my worries.

The filling should bubble, but should be bubbling furiously. For the
thickening to be effective, the filling actually has to reach the boiling
point, hence the bubbling.

--
Wayne Boatwright *¿*
____________________________________________

Give me a smart idiot over a stupid genius any day.
Sam Goldwyn, 1882-1974

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"Bock" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quite simply, the top pastry "sets" before the apples cook, soften, and
somewhat shrink, leaving the space in between. It's not uncommon for
this
to happen, even with commercial apple pies.

didin't know that. thks.

Quoted message said:

It is a good idea to put a heaping amount of apples in a pie since they
do
cook down.

Baking is somewhat of a dilemma. One needs to start out at a high
temperature for a shorter time, before reducing the temperature, to
insure
that the bottom crust browns well and bakes before the juices from the
fruit saturate it. At the same time, the higher heat causes the top
crust
to set faster.

didn't know that. thks.

Quoted message said:

A higher ratio of fat to flour allows the pastry to be softer and conform
more to the filling. Can you post your pastry recipe?

I make two 7 in pie crusts, top and bottom, rolled thin from the 10
inch pie crust recipe.

1 1/3 cup flour

How much is this in english measurements?

--
Alan

Reply to alan (dot) holmes27 (at) virgin (dot) net