apartheid on wheels

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Kind of like the Word Series, in which only American teams can compete. Doesn't seem right. I wonder
what NORBA's rationale is?

Matt

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Is it their national championships, or just the national series? Difficult to tell from the report.
If it's the national champs, then I believe the rule applies throughout the world and throughout
sports - you can't be a country's national champ if you don't originate from that country. Or should
I say, qualify as a national of that country.

In the same manner there's quite an amusing / depressing story from the US. Waylon Smith grew up in
the US but has a British passport. He made the junior worlds with the US team, but at the race they
found out he had a UK passport. They chucked him off the team and blocked him from racing. Waylon
went over and spoke to the Brits who said they'd happily have him on their team, but the US tried
to veto it. I think he eventually got to race, but he still has to race the World Cup under a
British licence.

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bomba said:

Pete Jones said:

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Is it their national championships, or just the national series? Difficult to tell from the report.
If it's the national champs, then I believe the rule applies throughout the world and throughout
sports - you can't be a country's national champ if you don't originate from that country. Or
should I say, qualify as a national of that country.

I dunno, I can think of one off the top of my head that allows any nationality to enter and win...

... the British Superbike Championship. It's one of our national motorcycle racing series and has
had winners from all over the place including America and Australia that I can remember.
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On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 16:54:45 +0100, Ben <[email hidden]> blathered:

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Quoted message said:

Is it their national championships, or just the national series? Difficult to tell from the
report. If it's the national champs, then I believe the rule applies throughout the world and
throughout sports - you can't be a country's national champ if you don't originate from that
country.

Quoted message said:

I dunno, I can think of one off the top of my head that allows any nationality to enter and win...

And surely that's the point - if you're allowed to enter, you should be allowed to win. Anything
else...well, it's just not British, is it?

Pete
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Pete Jones <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Racing doesn't matter.

JD

"JD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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Pete Jones <[email hidden]> wrote in message

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Racing doesn't matter.

JD

Unless of course you are an obsessed racer. Then it's everything.

Matt (falls somewhere in between)

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Racing doesn't matter.

JD

Unless of course you are an obsessed racer. Then it's everything.

Which takes all the fun out of it. Don't know if I'll race again, but sure look forward to riding.

Ben said:

I dunno, I can think of one off the top of my head that allows any nationality to enter and win...

... the British Superbike Championship. It's one of our national motorcycle racing series and has
had winners from all over the place including America and Australia that I can remember.

I don't know how Superbike works, but does it have a World Championship where competitors represent
their country?

To be honest, I was thinking more of Olympic-type sports. Swimming, athletics, cycling,
weight-lifting, judo, etc, etc, all have national champions who represent their countries.

Pete Jones said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is it their national championships, or just the national series? Difficult to tell from the
report. If it's the national champs, then I believe the rule applies throughout the world and
throughout sports - you can't be a country's national champ if you don't originate from that
country.

Quoted message said:

I dunno, I can think of one off the top of my head that allows any nationality to enter and win...

And surely that's the point - if you're allowed to enter, you should be allowed to win. Anything
else...well, it's just not British, is it?

Well, as far as I can gather, Peaty and Fionn won the event. Fionn and Greg Minaar won the NORBA
series. So they were allowed to enter and they were allowed to win. The one thing they couldn't be
crowned were US champions, because they don't have US nationality.

The organisation is screwed up a bit. In the UK, there is a separate National Championships
which, although I'm not sure if external competitors are permitted to enter, can only be won by
someone with a BCF (British Cycling Federation) licence. Guess what the requirements for a BCF
licence are...

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I've always thought this was a stupid and greedy way to run a race series. If you're going to let
international racers compete, they should be able to win. If you want and "American" Championship
series, only let Americans race. NORBA needs the international racers for credibility but won't
allow them the championship. Sort of silly, why even offer points to international racers. Just give
them the win purses...oh, that's right, there are none.

I've heard that NORBA is changing this next year and making the championship race a one shot, winner
take all, American championship-type race that only Americans would compete it. Of course, I heard
this at a cookout where much beer was consumed so it may be [censored] info.

T

Pete Jones said:

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Well since I'm from the same country as Henrik Djernis* I dare say it's because the only way for US
riders to win off road is to make rules like that:-)

I think it should be that the one who wins is the one that finish first, else restrict the race to
thoose you allow to win. Doing it in the other way just takes away from both the true winners and
the ones awarded thw win. I can't imagine anyone being very happy about the arrangement.

Here in europe there are Open Championships which awards the winner the trophy and the best rider
from the holding the championship is usualy mentioned in the press coverage - that's how it's
supposed to be.

On a somewhat related topic I kindda wonder what's up the with the whole World Series
Baseball/Football/...? It's another US thing which I find is just pretty lame marketing.

Kind regards

Bruno

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bomba said:

Pete Jones wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And surely that's the point - if you're allowed to enter, you should be allowed to win. Anything
else...well, it's just not British, is it?

Quoted message said:

Well, as far as I can gather, Peaty and Fionn won the event. Fionn and Greg Minaar won the NORBA
series. So they were allowed to enter and they were allowed to win. The one thing they couldn't be
crowned were US champions, because they don't have US nationality.

You are correct, sir. For historical reasons, the NORBA series is also the US national
championships. The top rider wins the series (and the prize purse, if there is any this year), and
the top US rider becomes the national champ. I believe the NORBA series predates the World Cup, so
originally it was a prime venue for the top foreign riders as well, especially back when NORBA had
real prize money.

This isn't a new thing, and I don't really understand why the article is making a big deal
out of it.

Quoted message said:

The organisation is screwed up a bit. In the UK, there is a separate National Championships
which, although I'm not sure if external competitors are permitted to enter, can only be won by
someone with a BCF (British Cycling Federation) licence. Guess what the requirements for a BCF
licence are...

Indeed, pretty much every other country has a one-day national championship race which is
restricted to riders of that nationality. So exclusionary! They are making noises about moving the
US champs to a separate one day US-only format so that the champ is the person who actually crosses
the line first.

BTW, the US road championships in Philly have the same format - all nationalities allowed,
first American across the line is the US champion. The Euros don't seem to complain since the
actual winner,
e.g. Zanini of Italy this year, can take home a pretty big prize. Again this is for historical
reasons - partly because the US talent pool used to be less deep, partly to encourage Euro
teams to come over for the race and make it more of a big-event spectacle, which has worked out
very well for the organizers.

BTW, I think the use of "apartheid" (state sponsored racism) is a little overblown here, it's only
bike racing after all.

Ben

"MattB" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

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"JD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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Pete Jones <[email hidden]> wrote in message

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Racing doesn't matter.

JD

Unless of course you are an obsessed racer. Then it's everything.

Matt (falls somewhere in between)

The article surely indicates that the racing scene here is a joke, which it really is. If they tried
that [censored] in F1, a british soccer mob would come out here and set things right.

JD mixing it up even more

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Well Pete, I say feck 'em all. Just ride.

Peace, Bill

The mind serves properly as a window glass rather than as a reflector, that is, the mind should give
an immediate view instead of an interpretation of the world.
:-]

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Every NORBA championship race I've ever seen (only on OLN...not easy to schedule a week off to drive
~12 hours each way for a weekend of riding) had two titles - world and US. There was a "winner" -
first/fastest finisher - and a US champ - first/fastest US racer.

For example, Roland Green would beat Ryder Hesjedahl (which is probably misspelled) yet they could
both claim a title, albeit different ones.

I dunno. That's the impression I got. I remember Eric Carter winning a Men's US title in like the
7th overall position, I think last year. Now I wish I'd paid more attention.

Chris

Apartheid is completely out of line being used in this context. Everyone knows who wins the races and finishes first in the points. So a U.S. citizen "has" to get the "title", who cares? If the racers cared more about the trophy than the money then they wouldn't race on the circuit. I guess everyone has to have something to complain about, even Europeans with nothing wrong in their lives who are perfectly content to point out the inconsistecies in everyone else's world. Go figure. I hope you enjoy that freedom in this forum.

By the way, the NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL are open (and actively recruit) the best possible players; regardless of country of origin, period. The World Series is played by the best players in the WORLD on two particular teams. They regularly handle the only other country with a major baseball league (Japan) in exhibition games. Do any of you remember the last time Italy had a decent "American" football team? Uh, oh yeah, never. You complain our sports are dumb and then complain you can't have some stupid trophy? Doesn't make sense there mate, at all. Settle down and have a pint on me. Go ride a bike and remember why you started to ride...fun.

K.

On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 23:13:03 -0400, Bill Wheeler <[email hidden]> blathered:

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I say feck 'em all. Just ride.

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On 18 Aug 2003 16:04:15 -0700, [email hidden] (JD) blathered:

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The article surely indicates that the racing scene here is a joke, which it really is. If they
tried that [censored] in F1, a british soccer mob would come out here and set things right.

JD mixing it up even more

Even MORE? I thought I was doing a good enough job already.

Pete
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bomba said:

Ben said:

I dunno, I can think of one off the top of my head that allows any nationality to enter
and win...

... the British Superbike Championship. It's one of our national motorcycle racing series and has
had winners from all over the place including America and Australia that I can remember.

I don't know how Superbike works, but does it have a World Championship where competitors represent
their country?

Yes it does. But the country plays very little part, mostly they represent themselves and their
team. It's got individual championships and team championships.

In BSB on the other hand, if you win the series you become British Champion, irrespective of your
nationality.

Quoted message said:

To be honest, I was thinking more of Olympic-type sports. Swimming, athletics, cycling,
weight-lifting, judo, etc, etc, all have national champions who represent their countries.

Ah, in superbike racing you don't need to win (or even compete in the domestic series on order to
compete in world series.
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