Anyone using Cross Bike for MTB?

_ Is anybody using a cyclo-cross style bike for MTB trail riding?
: I've been having lot's of fun with my recent purchase of a Surly Cross Check and an looking for
: ways to make it more "mud friendly" without adding too much weight. I'm considering replacing the
: cyclocross tires with some 29" MTB tires.
:
: _ Booker C. Bense
:

You're joking, right?

More mud friendly? Um. 'Cross bikes are already "mud friendly", dude. That's kinda the point.

I do occasionally take my 'cross bike trail riding... but only for ' cross training. I prefer my
singlespeed mtb.

--

FlyingCoyote boarsgut.comboarsgut.comOpen ↗

--

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In article <[email hidden]>, FlyingCoyote

Quoted message said:

: _ Is anybody using a cyclo-cross style bike for MTB trail riding? I've been having lot's of fun
: with my recent purchase of a Surly Cross Check and an looking for ways to make it more "mud
: friendly" without adding too much weight. I'm considering replacing the cyclocross tires with
: some 29" MTB tires.
:
: _ Booker C. Bense
:

You're joking, right?

More mud friendly? Um. 'Cross bikes are already "mud friendly", dude. That's kinda the point.

_ Well, there's a ride I do that involves a 700ft climb on a muddy trail and there are definitely
places where I could keep climbing instead of walking if I could keep traction on the rear wheel.
Part of this is just getting a low enough gear so I can keep the weight back and part of it is
getting a wider lower pressure tire. There's also the "paste-up" problem, where I ride has this
incredibly pasty clay that can gum up the wheels to the point where you have to carry the bike as
the wheels won't move. I think the only solution to this is to not ride those trails until their
either drier or wetter.

_ I guess the only way to know is to try. I was just wondering if anyone else had already tried.

_ Booker C. Bense

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In article <[email hidden]>, Andrew Thorne

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I trail ride quite often on my CX bike. And my suggestion as to making it more trail worthy
is: don't.

Most of the joy of riding one of these on "mountain bike rides" is living within the limitations
the equipment imposes on you. you'll find yourself pricking better lines, riding lighter and
smoother over rough terrain, and, yes, learning how to eek just a little bit more traction out of
those skinny tires through careful weight distribution and finesse.

_ I think you may be right, but I've already crossed over to the dark side and put flat bars on my
Surly. Where I live in CA, there are basically two seasons, wet and dry. In the dry season there is
no need for a mountain bike for the rides I want to do. I basically stopped riding my mountain bike
because it was such a tank, the cross bike is an attempt to bridge the two seasons. I got a Surly
because it can handle fat tires, the idea was to have one frame that could morph from a dry season (
9 monthes ) to a wet season bike.

Quoted message said:

And if packing up with mud is a problem, you want skinnier tires not fatter.

_ I'm pretty convinced that there is no solution to the Tilden Park Packing Problem. Even running on
that stuff is difficult.

Quoted message said:

And lastly, there's no shame in getting off and running with that bike on your shoulder if you
can't ride something on it. They're kinda built for that, y'know...

Ride the bike as it is. If it doesn't make you a better rider, I'd be very surprised.

_ It's been all downhill since I was USCF[1] district champion 27 years ago as an
Intermediate....[2] I peaked at 15 and am unlikely to get much better. These days it's all about
running the Red Queen's race to stay in the same place. Doesn't matter if it's stupid or not, if I
can spend a few $$ to keep the smile on my face and my butt in the saddle after a long day at work
it's worth it. For me these days, half the fun of the various sports I mess around with is tweaking
the gear. Rightly or Wrongly I'm a lot more likely to get out for an hour after work, if I'm
"testing out" some new piece of gear. Somebody's got to keep that economy ticking over....

_ Booker C. Bense

[1]- It wasn't the USCF then, but I can't remember the name. They changed names to USCF shortly
after. ( ABRA maybe? )

[2]- In N.H. back then all you had to do was show up to be district champion as a 15 year old, there
were only 6 USCF Intermediate racers in the whole state.

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_ I think you may be right, but I've already crossed over to the
: dark side and put flat bars on my Surly. Where I live in CA, there are basically two seasons, wet
: and dry. In the dry season there is no need for a mountain bike for the rides I want to do. I
: basically stopped riding my mountain bike because it was such a tank, the cross bike is an attempt
: to bridge the two seasons. I got a Surly because it can handle fat tires, the idea was to have one
: frame that could morph from a dry season ( 9 monthes ) to a wet season bike.

I understand your reasoning but really, a 'cross bike is a specialized bike designed for a specific
type of riding. It will work for trail riding but that's not what it's designed for. It's designed
for 'cross. I would either ride the mountain bike, or if it's such a tank (I'm reading that as
"cheap and heavy", then invest in something a little more pleasureable to ride. The best tires to
use depend on the trail condition. Another viable option is to slap some slicks on the 'cross bike
and take to the road.

: _ I'm pretty convinced that there is no solution to the Tilden Park Packing Problem. Even running
: on that stuff is difficult.
:

Ahh.. now you're talking about an area I'm extremely familiar with! Tilden Park and other east bay
parks are notorious for their clay like mud. After a day or two of rains, the trails are in perfect
riding condition - tacky. But after several days, they just get irritating. There's not a whole lot
you can do about it. You'll end up with so much gunk in your drivetrain your wheels will literally
stop spinning. My advice to you is to carefully pick your trails for those in the best condition, or
ride parks with better trails. Tilden is among the worse of them. Try Redwood Park, Lake Chabot,
Joaquin Miller. Or drive a little bit and hit up China Camp, Tamarancho, Mt Tam, Pine Mountain, etc.
I would ride the mountain bike, not the 'cross bike. I'd get some tires with medium sized, widely
spaced knobs. Then learn technique. Learn to cope with the mud as much as is feasible.

--

FlyingCoyote boarsgut.comboarsgut.comOpen ↗

--

FlyingCoyote said:

... a 'cross bike is a specialized bike designed for a specific type of riding. It will work for
trail riding but that's not what it's designed for. It's designed for 'cross.

Which is no more the case than saying that an XC bike isn't really designed for going down hills, or
a full suspension bike isn't really designed for fire roads. In the world of roadies there are bikes
that are very specific to the task at hand (pursuit, track, time trial, etc.), but off-road requires
a range of capabilities. To be a "complete off-road bike", the design has to be able to go uphill,
downhill, handle twisty singletrack and be comfortable and efficient on fast fire roads. Optimizing
for any one of these comes at the expense of the others though, so you end up choosing where in the
continuum of each attribute you're looking for.

A 'cross bike is simply optimized a bit further toward the "fire road" end of the spectrum, but can
be a blast on more challenging terrain as well. The right tool for the job isn't always the one that
makes it boring.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.comOpen ↗ Home of the $695 ti frame

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 09:00:09 +0000 (UTC),
<[email hidden]> wrote:

. In the dry season

Quoted message said:

there is no need for a mountain bike for the rides I want to do.

Quoted message said:

_ I'm pretty convinced that there is no solution to the Tilden Park Packing Problem.

Holy [censored]!

There is someone that actually WANTS to ride Tilden when there are so many better rides around?

Mark Hickey said:

A 'cross bike is simply optimized a bit further toward the "fire

road"

Quoted message said:

end of the spectrum, but can be a blast on more challenging terrain

as

Quoted message said:

well. The right tool for the job isn't always the one that makes it boring.

In other words:

Cross bikes are lots of fun on steep, loose, technial, narrow singletrack.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <[email hidden]>, P e t e F a g e r l i n

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 09:00:09 +0000 (UTC),
<[email hidden]> wrote:

. In the dry season

Quoted message said:

there is no need for a mountain bike for the rides I want to do.

Quoted message said:

_ I'm pretty convinced that there is no solution to the Tilden Park Packing Problem.

Holy [censored]!

There is someone that actually WANTS to ride Tilden when there are so many better rides around?

_ It's in my back yard. The idea is to maximize fun time and minimize driving around time. If I'm
motivated enough to pack up and drive, I'm going skiing. For me the whole point of getting a new
bike was to do something that I could pick up and go when I had a spare hour or two, not to do even
more driving...

_ Booker C. Bense

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Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There is someone that actually WANTS to ride Tilden when there are

so

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

many better rides around?

_ It's in my back yard. The idea is to maximize fun time and minimize driving around time. If I'm
motivated enough to pack up and drive, I'm going skiing. For me the whole point of getting a new
bike was to do something that I could pick up and go when I had a spare hour or two, not to do even
more driving...

I guess we have different definitions of "want" then.

There are plenty of rides in my back yard which are pretty mundane. Those aren't the trails that I
would buy a bike for because I "want" to ride them.

To me "want to ride" means riding trails that I find to be the most challenging and most fun. Not
trails that are merely more convenient but much less interesting.

(snip silly PGP [censored])

P e t e F a g e r l i n said:

In other words:

Cross bikes are lots of fun on steep, loose, technial, narrow singletrack.

That's where I enjoy mine the most.

Miles

"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
: Which is no more the case than saying that an XC bike isn't really designed for going down hills,
: or a full suspension bike isn't really designed for fire roads. In the world of roadies there are
: bikes that are very specific to the task at hand (pursuit, track, time trial, etc.), but off-road
: requires a range of capabilities. To be a "complete off-road bike", the design has to be able to
: go uphill, downhill, handle twisty singletrack and be comfortable and efficient on fast fire
: roads. Optimizing for any one of these comes at the expense of the others though, so you end up
: choosing where in the continuum of each attribute you're looking for.
:

All true. Agreed.

: A 'cross bike is simply optimized a bit further toward the "fire road" end of the spectrum, but
: can be a blast on more challenging terrain as well. The right tool for the job isn't always the
: one that makes it boring.

A 'cross bike is also optimized for racing (hence the more aggressive posture - afterall, it's
really just a modified road bike on dirt), for picking up and running with (usually a large triangle
often with a flat spot on the bottom of the top tube to rest on the shoulder), for cutting through
mud to dig into the harder soil beneath (skinny, knobby tires).

From the sounds of it, I don't think this is what Booker is looking for. It doesn't sound like he's
looking for a challenge. It sounds to me like he's looking for versatility so he can get out and
ride in his backyard regardless of weather and trail conditions. The most versatile would be in the
cross-country mountain bike spectrum, IMO.

--

FlyingCoyote boarsgut.comboarsgut.comOpen ↗

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FlyingCoyote said:

A 'cross bike is also optimized for racing (hence the more aggressive posture - afterall, it's
really just a modified road bike on dirt),

But those modifications , especially to the geometry, make them significantly different than a
"racing" road bike.

for

Quoted message said:

picking up and running with (usually a large triangle often with a

flat spot

Quoted message said:

on the bottom of the top tube to rest on the shoulder),

Which cross bike has a flat spot on the top tube? I've never seen one. That would be the exception
rather than the rule.

for cutting through

Quoted message said:

mud to dig into the harder soil beneath (skinny, knobby tires).

From the sounds of it, I don't think this is what Booker is looking

for. It

Quoted message said:

doesn't sound like he's looking for a challenge. It sounds to me like

he's

Quoted message said:

looking for versatility so he can get out and ride in his backyard regardless of weather and trail
conditions. The most versatile would

be in

Quoted message said:

the cross-country mountain bike spectrum, IMO.

I think a cross bike would be better due to the boring terrain that he's going to be riding.

A cross bike will make those rides more interesting and fun.

"P e t e F a g e r l i n" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
: On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 07:52:45 -0800, "FlyingCoyote" <[email hidden]> wrote:
:
: >A 'cross bike is also optimized for racing (hence the more aggressive posture - afterall, it's
: >really just a modified road bike on dirt),
:
: But those modifications , especially to the geometry, make them significantly different than a
: "racing" road bike.
:

No, they are not like a racing road bike. The geometry is more aggressive than a cross-country
mountain bike but not as aggressive as a road bike designed for racing. I've heard that the geometry
is more akin to a touring road bike, although I can't vouch for that myself as I've not ridden a
touring bike.

: Which cross bike has a flat spot on the top tube? I've never seen one.

The new Bianchi's have it. And although I cannot recall the manufacturer, I've seen other newer
frame designs as such at local 'cross races lately as well.

--

FlyingCoyote boarsgut.comboarsgut.comOpen ↗

--

FlyingCoyote said:

"P e t e F a g e r l i n" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

: Which cross bike has a flat spot on the top tube? I've never seen one.

The new Bianchi's have it. And although I cannot recall the manufacturer, I've seen other newer
frame designs as such at local 'cross races lately as well.

The Habanero 'cross frames have an ovalized (sideways) top tube as well, for the sole reason of
portaging comfort (makes it "feel" like a much larger tube). It's the ONLY non-round tube I use
other than the ovalized down tube on my Team Issue (road) frames (since I think most other
applications of squished tubes tend to be well-lubed with snake oil any mythology).

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.comOpen ↗ Home of the $695 ti frame

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In article <[email hidden]>, FlyingCoyote

Quoted message said:

"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

: A 'cross bike is simply optimized a bit further toward the "fire road" end of the spectrum, but
: can be a blast on more challenging terrain as well. The right tool for the job isn't always the
: one that makes it boring.

A 'cross bike is also optimized for racing (hence the more aggressive posture - afterall, it's
really just a modified road bike on dirt), for picking up and running with (usually a large
triangle often with a flat spot on the bottom of the top tube to rest on the shoulder), for cutting
through mud to dig into the harder soil beneath (skinny, knobby tires).

From the sounds of it, I don't think this is what Booker is looking for. It doesn't sound like he's
looking for a challenge. It sounds to me like he's looking for versatility so he can get out and
ride in his backyard regardless of weather and trail conditions. The most versatile would be in the
cross-country mountain bike spectrum, IMO.

_That was my first thought as well, but the XC bikes I looked at were either tanks or WAY out of my
price range. I took a long look at the Fischer 29 inch bikes on their website, but I couldn't find
any locally to take for a test ride. If there's an XC bike under $1k and 25lbs, I'd be interested,
but from what research I did they don't exist. The Surly Cross-check is on the low end of the Cross
bike world, and the componetents are kind of a mixed bag, but so far it's way more fun than any
mountain bike I tried and it actually doesn't suck to ride on the pavement every once in a while.

_ So far getting a triple crank, and only going out in the rain or the day after seems to be
working okay.

_ Booker C. Bense

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