Anyone done a ride in M7 yet?

thomas_cho said:

Anyone done a ride on the M7 in sydney yet? Would appreciate any comments regarding using the M7 as a endurance training ride.

What's the safest way to enter the M7 from Parramatta?

As mentioned in the previous M7 thread, you can do both the bike track or the road shoulder.

I've only done the bike track, and find it quite a good 80km ride both ways. Most of it is asphalt, so no cr@ppy concrete gaps to ride over =) There are quite a few crossovers (from east to west side of the main motorway), and the lighting is good if you wanted to ride of a night time.

Takes me a little over 3h (add 0.5h for a stop at the North end), and is mostly flat. Some sections are mildly hilly, although I wouldn't call any of it a major climb.

Personally, I would never ride a freeway shoulder - it only takes one drunk or sleepy idiot doing 100km/h to hit you and you're gone. (I've been to far too many Trauma meetings at Liverpool Hospital reporting on cyclists being hit on the M5 - it happens at least once a fortnight, often more in summer).

Can't comment on the safest entry from Parra - I live near the southern end.

HTH,

--
nerdag

nerdag said:

As mentioned in the previous M7 thread, you can do both the bike track or the road shoulder.

I've only done the bike track, and find it quite a good 80km ride both ways. Most of it is asphalt, so no cr@ppy concrete gaps to ride over =) There are quite a few crossovers (from east to west side of the main motorway), and the lighting is good if you wanted to ride of a night time.

Takes me a little over 3h (add 0.5h for a stop at the North end), and is mostly flat. Some sections are mildly hilly, although I wouldn't call any of it a major climb.

Personally, I would never ride a freeway shoulder - it only takes one drunk or sleepy idiot doing 100km/h to hit you and you're gone. (I've been to far too many Trauma meetings at Liverpool Hospital reporting on cyclists being hit on the M5 - it happens at least once a fortnight, often more in summer).

Can't comment on the safest entry from Parra - I live near the southern end.

HTH,

--
nerdag

i believe scotty has done it

i hope to try it out in the new year

nerdag said:

As mentioned in the previous M7 thread, you can do both the bike track or the road shoulder.

I've only done the bike track, and find it quite a good 80km ride both ways. Most of it is asphalt, so no cr@ppy concrete gaps to ride over =) There are quite a few crossovers (from east to west side of the main motorway), and the lighting is good if you wanted to ride of a night time.

Takes me a little over 3h (add 0.5h for a stop at the North end), and is mostly flat. Some sections are mildly hilly, although I wouldn't call any of it a major climb.

Personally, I would never ride a freeway shoulder - it only takes one drunk or sleepy idiot doing 100km/h to hit you and you're gone. (I've been to far too many Trauma meetings at Liverpool Hospital reporting on cyclists being hit on the M5 - it happens at least once a fortnight, often more in summer).

Can't comment on the safest entry from Parra - I live near the southern end.

HTH,

--
nerdag

Okay you have put me off cycling on the shoulder ...

Hopefully going out this arvo for a ride on the bike track.

Daz

thomas_cho said:

Okay you have put me off cycling on the shoulder ...

The bike track is really just as good as riding on a smooth road, so I wouldn't go near the shoulder on the M7.

Something to keep in mind though (so the argmuents are balanced), Liverpool Hospital is a tertiary Trauma Centre, so they get all the really unlucky people. What I do see may be a skewed sample of incidents.

Having said that, if its going to be a bad injury (as it tends to be in incidents like that), then you on your 9kg two wheeler has little hope against a 1 tonne chunk of metal doing 100km/h...

Done both shoulder and the track several times now.

Shoulder is no prob.

The theory about drunks hitting you - I assume you never ride on any public road then... (if they hit you at 70 or 80, you;re just as dead as 100)

Best way from Parramatta would be either up Old Windsor Road - jump on just past Seven Hills Road Roundabout.

Or go up the M4 to the Light Horse interchange..

The path is good except there are some really dumb hairpin curves at the bottom of very fast hills etc. as pointed out earlier, some fairly big climbs where the builders did it on the cheap (not wanting the cost of widening the cuttings for the bike path) where the path goes from about 10 metres below road level to 10 or 15 metres above (20 - 25 metres climb over a farily short distance).

Nothing too serious unless, a) you're a newbie (they will stop them) or, a serious commuter or trainer desperate to maintain your 40 kms av. (not possible on the track with its poinches and hairpins)

The road shoulder on the other hand is pretty well dead flat all the way (except the climb from Hoxton Pk up to Elizabeth Drive)(still better than the path)

Scotty

scotty72 said:

The theory about drunks hitting you - I assume you never ride on any public road then... (if they hit you at 70 or 80, you;re just as dead as 100)

On highways, its people who are sleepy or distracted (eg. talking on mobile phones or changing CDs) that I'm most worried about - wide roads give an illusion of safety (by allowing for more errors), and people tend to do silly things when they *feel* safer.

Travelling at that speed, you can have a brief distraction, look down for a moment, and the next time you look up you have a cyclist just 50m ahead of you. At 100km/h, that's not a lot of time to react.

I spoke to the Epidemiology people at Liverpool Hospital after noticing this pattern of injuries to cyclists, and a quick look at their stats tell them you are far more likely to be seriously injured on a freeway than on a public road. I asked why that might be, and they postulated that incidents on public roads are more likely to be at lower speeds (eg. around a corner, at a roundabout, or trying to overtake on a narrow road after getting frustrated at slowing down). Higways on the other hand, are where cyclists tend to be knocked over by fast moving cars.

As for drunks, I try to avoid public roads at night if possible.

--
nerdag

nerdag said:

As for drunks, I try to avoid public roads at night if possible.

--
nerdag

That part I 100% agree with

riding Parramatta Rd at 3am Sunday is a little scary.

I rode the section between elizabeth drive and the lighthorse interchange. What i find interesting is that the path is labeled as a shared path but in between the section i was on i cant imagine their being any pedestrians.

Daz

We rode the section between Woodstock and lighthorse interchange today. The only problems we saw were a manhole cover not properly closed, not far before Eastern road. Meant to get a shot of it on the way back but got off before. This was my 10 year old's first longish ride, we rode over 16 km and he only walked a couple of times. Was complaining about a sore butt though, mine is a bit tender too, it's my first longish ride since before his big sister was born.
All the riders we saw on it were pleasant - said hello or smiled. One was putting a wheel on he was asked by a rider just as I came pass whether he was ok. All in all it was a pleasant ride.

nerdag said:

Personally, I would never ride a freeway shoulder - it only takes one drunk or sleepy idiot doing 100km/h to hit you and you're gone. (I've been to far too many Trauma meetings at Liverpool Hospital reporting on cyclists being hit on the M5 - it happens at least once a fortnight, often more in summer).

Those figures can't even be close to accurate. You are saying 25+ riders are hit on the M5 per year? I ride probably around 800km a month on the M5 (which is a lot of hours spent on the pavement there), which I've done for a number of years and to date I've never seen or heard of a report of a car / bicycle incident on the stretch that I ride (which is essentially Hume Highway to Bexley Road).

As for the M7 I've done both the path and the shoulder. From Henry Lawson Drive then looping on the M7 gives me a pretty even 105km. The shoulder still has a little bit of junk from construction on it (gravel etc). It's generally smooth rolling on the shoulder, the downsides are:

a) The entry ramps are longer than the M5 meaning that cars are entering the M7 at higher speed so crossing the entries requires care. Having said that on a few rides drivers on the entry have actually slowed for me and waved me across which is nice.

b) I've had bogans in utes think it funny to hang out of the passenger window and yell on the way by.

A word of warning!! I've also noted that trying to enter the M7 from the M5 (West bound) is a problem. They divert you onto the bike path which as of last week had locked gates. This means you are stuck ignoring the "No Bikes" signs and shooting across the actual two lanes of the M7 to get to the bike shoulder, unless you want to try and ride back along the M5 shoulder in the wrong direction.

-brett

sideshow_bob said:

Those figures can't even be close to accurate.

You're welcome to sit in on Trauma Audit (0730 sharp, every Thursday at Liverpool Hospital) and ask any of the Orthopaedics people, and they'll give you their figures. Of the 50 odd orthopod beds in Liverpool, roughly one admission each fortnight is a cyclist who was hit on the M5.

sideshow_bob said:

I've never seen or heard of a report of a car / bicycle incident on the stretch that I ride (which is essentially Hume Highway to Bexley Road).

With all due respect, you probably don't work in the hospital that takes people in once they have been hit. I've been a full time medical student there for pretty much all of the last three years (but for a 10 week rural stint in Coffs Harbour and three weeks at Sydney Children's), and have done one orthopod rotation and two ED/Trauma rotations. Perhaps my numbers are off for the previous year (didn't do any orthopaedics or trauma last year), but I can assure you that they are in the ball park for the previous two years.

sideshow_bob said:

A word of warning!! I've also noted that trying to enter the M7 from the M5 (West bound) is a problem. They divert you onto the bike path which as of last week had locked gates.

Can confirm this one - I have ridden past it (and driven the M7 from M5) frequently and think that the locking of access gates is plain stupid.

--
nerdag

Wow, I thought about doing the ride from Brunswick Heads to Tweed on our next camping holiday-(live in QLD) on the pacific hwy. Not any more! that is a 110k zone from the car it looked like a decent ride, but after those figures I willl stick to the back roads through potsville and kingscliffe.

Are any of you guys involved in the national cycling strategy that has supposedly been initiated by the federal government? I keep trying to find out what they are going to do about things like Ipswich road and the Bruce hiway, but no joy. I know all you guys live in Sydney, but I would be interested in your comments.

nerdag said:

Can confirm this one - I have ridden past it (and driven the M7 from M5) frequently and think that the locking of access gates is plain stupid.
--
nerdag

I can also confirm that while riding from liverpool to lighthorse interchange the gate to go from the M7 bike path to penrith via the M4 shoulder is locked (this is the gate that is also signposted to use if you are on the m7 shoulder and want to get on to the m4 to head to parramatta making you avoid the big fly overs) but on the other side of the bridge the gate that links the m7 bike path and the m4 shoulder to parramatta is unlocked.

Why would they do this?

the path seems to be attracting numbers everytime I have been for a ride I always see more people using it.

Daz 😎

nerdag said:

You're welcome to sit in on Trauma Audit (0730 sharp, every Thursday at Liverpool Hospital) and ask any of the Orthopaedics people, and they'll give you their figures. Of the 50 odd orthopod beds in Liverpool, roughly one admission each fortnight is a cyclist who was hit on the M5.

With all due respect, you probably don't work in the hospital that takes people in once they have been hit. I've been a full time medical student there for pretty much all of the last three years (but for a 10 week rural stint in Coffs Harbour and three weeks at Sydney Children's), and have done one orthopod rotation and two ED/Trauma rotations. Perhaps my numbers are off for the previous year (didn't do any orthopaedics or trauma last year), but I can assure you that they are in the ball park for the previous two years.

You're absolutely correct I don't work in Liverpool Hospital. However I don't really see how casual observations within a single environment become a fact. The RTA publishes traffic statistics including those for the M5. The information is here:

http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/roadsafety/downloads/accidentstats2001.pdf

The latest data is 2001. To summarize relevant points.

1) In NSW is 2001 there were 13 cycling deaths (6 without helmets);
2) There were 1130 cycling accidents that related in an injury (a large percentage of which were kids and again a large percentage were without helmets);
3) On the M5 specifically there were zero fatalities and 54 accidents that resulted in an injury (72 people injured as obviously some were multiple car or multiple passenger events).

Sorry the numbers of 25+ a year cycling accidents resulting in injury (and going to Liverpool Hospital) just don't add up. For starters in 25+ accidents that are occurring with vehicles presumably travelling at high speed there are zero fatalities (from published figures), which I find very odd. Also bicycle accidents are therefore accounting for 50% of all accidents (approximately) that are occurring on the M5?

I don't mean to pay you any disrespect here. I'm absolutely sure you do see horrific injuries that have occurred on bicycles both on freeways and public roads in the hospital. However anecdotal numbers are not a substitute for published statistics.

From the casual observations of someone who routinely logs 350-400km a week with around 2/3 on freeways and 1/3 on other roads. The potential for very significant injury may be greater on freeways when vehicles are travelling at high speed (routinely on the M5 specifically, this is not the case in the morning and afternoon peak hours, where on a bike I'm almost always travelling faster than the flow of traffic). However the number of very near misses I have had on roads other than freeways are many compared to zero riding on freeway shoulders. In either case I don't want to be hit by a car though at high or low speed!! So I think ultimately it comes down to making a personal assessment of the risk involved (for cycling on any public road) and deciding whether to accept that risk or not.

--brett

sideshow_bob said:

I don't really see how casual observations within a single environment become a fact.
<snip>
The RTA publishes traffic statistics including those for the M5.
<snip>
3) On the M5 specifically there were zero fatalities and 54 accidents that resulted in an injury (72 people injured as obviously some were multiple car or multiple passenger events).

I do agree that referring to published statistics is a necessary. Thanks for pointing this data out.

sideshow_bob said:

Sorry the numbers of 25+ a year cycling accidents resulting in injury (and going to Liverpool Hospital) just don't add up. For starters in 25+ accidents that are occurring with vehicles presumably travelling at high speed there are zero fatalities (from published figures), which I find very odd. Also bicycle accidents are therefore accounting for 50% of all accidents (approximately) that are occurring on the M5?

I stand corrected. However, I do stand by the original numbers, although they might be qualified by intake area. Liverpool takes in trauma patients from Liverpool, Campbelltown, Wollondilly, and Wingecarribee LGAs as well, and any incidents on the Hume Highway are usually described as having occurred on the M5 (although not geographically correct).

Orthopods probably don't care much for location as they do for type of injury - ie. high speed motor vehicle accident. The end result is the same.

I should note that none of the people I came across in my stints there (and I didn't see all the cyclist injuries in my time) were killed. Most were seriously injured (most frequently multiple fractures - pelvic fractures in particular as these are really difficult to deal with, and often limb fractures, with plenty of abdominal trauma and organ damage), but few, if any, die. There were no major head injuries experienced by those people I have seen in my time, because they all wore helmets. The worst I can recall happening was severe concussion with retrograde anmesia - his memory returned within a few days.

sideshow_bob said:

I don't mean to pay you any disrespect here. I'm absolutely sure you do see horrific injuries that have occurred on bicycles both on freeways and public roads in the hospital.

<snip>

In either case I don't want to be hit by a car though at high or low speed!! So I think ultimately it comes down to making a personal assessment of the risk involved (for cycling on any public road) and deciding whether to accept that risk or not.

I think most would agree that being hit is the least desirable outcome, and having assessed the risks from what I have seen, I prefer not to ride on freeway shoulders. If I'm going to be hit, I'd rather be hit at lower speeds, because the prognostic indicators for a full recovery tend to be better.

Your risk assessment is clearly different to mine, and that's okay. Part of being a responsible cyclist.

Stay upright.

--
nerdag

Nerdag, Brett,

I think we are getting a little lost. Interesting about the stats though. I think perhaps the real issue here is that the drivers of cars be it on free ways or suburban streets or national hiways don't consider cyclists as worthy road users. I really think that this is where we have to concentrate our efforts.

Nerdag the trauma that you have seen, I wonder how much of it is involving vehicles, I would guess more than half. What I think we should be doing is putting the figures to good use. Shoving them under the nose of state transport ministers and council transport committees.

I think we all see it, I ride any where from 150/250klm a week both on major Brisbane roads and suburban streets. The attention of drivers is non-existent. Is it any wonder there are so many traffic accidents let alone cyclists and cars. I think putting our figures and heads together and making the elected ones stand up and take notice would better serve us all.

We are never going to educate drivers they are mainly ignorant because they don't cycle. - (Sweeping statement I know) The answer is, I think, to have better constructed cycle ways incorporated into the construction of new motorways and freeways. Fully separated from all other traffic, including pedestrians.

What do you guy's think. Can we get something started? We do a ride here each April organised by Burnie Ripoll, fed member for Oxley from Brisbane to Ipswich malls. It is only 50k but perhaps a good place to start. I will get what stats I can from Brisbane can you guys get some from down in Sydney? Perhaps we can start to get the wheels turning. What do you think?

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mjs4300 said:

I think we are getting a little lost. Interesting about the stats though. I think perhaps the real issue here is that the drivers of cars be it on free ways or suburban streets or national hiways don't consider cyclists as worthy road users. I really think that this is where we have to concentrate our efforts.

Hi,

This is a good post and probably deserves it's own thread.

I've given this a lot of thought over the past few years and I think you've touched on the core issue. I don't believe it's cyclists in general that drivers are oblivious to. It's road users in general. I routinely see people doing all kinds of idiotic things whilst driving (my current pet hate is people writing sms'😉. I read today this article:

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,17750498-26619,00.html

Basically people just don't get the consequences of not concentrating (even for seconds) completely while driving resulting in tragedy after tragedy. Accordingly there is a call away from education and towards external safety measures. Something that you touched on in your post, which is completely segregated cycling infrastructure (in the case of cyclists specifically). A good idea, however an idea that generally requires infrastructure investment at the state government level. Which is where it goes pear shaped. Here in NSW the first thing Micheal Costa did on taking the Roads and Transport portfolio was to slash the general cycling budget (from memory by about 50%) and to remove the one position in the RTA responsible solely for cycling. Clearly there is zero interest at the government level in cycling expenditure (here in NSW) as I would assume they do not see it winning them any votes. A shame as I did about 70km on the M7 cycle way today and passed probably 100 people out cycling in a couple of hours. So there is evidence that if money is spent people will use the facilities.

So where to from here? I feel that unless you bring a movement with probably thousands of participants to the door of someone like Costa, you are not going to acheive any quantifiable reseults. Possibly piggybacking off an established event like the Sydney to Gong ride as a mechanism of bringing change might be a solution, though I'm not sure the MS organization would be too happy to share the focus of the event (given they organize it). Maybe having every cyclist in NSW (and other states) write to the minister responsible for the portfolio would acheive something in the short term, however getting people to get up and actually do something like write a letter is non-trivial, even though we all get fired up when we have a near miss on the roads!! And also keeping momentum going so that there is follow through on promises is a challenge that requires time and resources.

I'm not sure, I need to think about it a little more.

--brett

Just to get back on the M7 track - can anyone tell me if there's anywhere to park a car at the Prestons end? I'd like to do the ride but it would be a bit beyond me if I had to ride to Prestons as well.

// kak