Any evolution registered case in the last 7,000 years???

in article [email hidden], Eliezer Figueroa at
[email hidden] wrote on 10/2/03 11:42 AM:

Quoted message said:

I belive in evolution so please do not get my question like an atack. I know about all the well
known cases of evolution like reptil to birds. But I want to know about any evolution registered
case in the last 7,000 years. I am not looking for small changes like the galapagus's birds
evolution documented by darwin. I am looking for changes in an organ or the formation of new
organs or new characteristics . I want to know about it even if it only happened in one specimen.
I am looking for something like for example a rabbit that was spawn with 2 hearts for backup and
that is able to spawn new baby rabbits with it's caracterisctics. Is there is no case i would like
a theorie about why not or just a simple "not yet"

I don't have an example for you off hand, although I think there are hundreds of examples that are
out there. I just want to point out that from your description you are not actually looking for
examples of evolution. Evolution does not happen to individuals, it happens to populations. You seem
to be looking for examples of mutations with large phenotypic effects.

Guy

"Eliezer Figueroa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

I am looking for something like for example a rabbit that was spawn with 2 hearts for backup and
that is able to spawn new baby rabbits with it's caracterisctics. Is there is no case i would like
a theorie about why not or just a simple "not yet"

British bunnies used to live in big warren complexes. With the advent of myxymatosis, they started
living in simpler scrapes. We can't prove that this change was genetic, but it probably was -
rabbits aren't intelligent enough to adapt their behaviour consciously to disease.

The dinosaurs went extinct 70 million years ago, allowing mammals to radiate. If there was one double-
heart style mutation event in mammals every 7000 years, that makes 10000 such events. There are
fewer than 10000 species of mammals. Such a rate of mutation would mean that you would have three-
and four- hearted species. Mammals wouldn't look anything like each other.

There may be the occasional big jump, but most evolution proceeds by small cumulative steps. As with
the British rabbits, this might be a small behavioural change, or it might be an alteration in the
immune system undetectable to anyone without specialised equipment.

"Eliezer Figueroa" <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I belive in evolution so please do not get my question like an atack. I know about all the well
known cases of evolution like reptil to birds. But I want to know about any evolution registered
case in the last 7,000 years. I am not looking for small changes like the galapagus's birds
evolution documented by darwin. I am looking for changes in an organ or the formation of new
organs or new characteristics . I want to know about it even if it only happened in one specimen.
I am looking for something like for example a rabbit that was spawn with 2 hearts for backup and
that is able to spawn new baby rabbits with it's caracterisctics. Is there is no case i would like
a theorie about why not or just a simple "not yet"

7,000 years is a pretty short time from an evolutionary standpoint, so you should not expect large
changes. Obviously new viral pathogens have appeared (SARS and AIDS very recently), but these
require only small changes in existing genomes. Numerous varieties of domesticated species have
appeared in the last 7,000 years, but you may not consider the Chihuahua as representing a "new
characteristic". Note that what you are looking for - formation of new organs - is the type of
change that would be very unlikely to occur in any short period of time, as it would generally
require changes in a number of associated organs to produce any benefit to the rabbit or other
animal involved. The enlargement of the human brain relative to that of chimpanzess, our closest
animal relative, is considered to have taken place very quickly from an evolutionary standpoint, but
it still took millions of years. Possibly the best documented example of rapid evolutionary
divergence is the cichlid fishes of Lake Victoria in Africa(my recollection is that this still took
several hundred thousand years, and the speciation is not complete). A web search on this topic
should give you some good information on maximum rates of evolution.

Yours,

Bill Morse

"Guy Hoelzer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in article [email hidden], Eliezer Figueroa at [email hidden] wrote on
10/2/03 11:42 AM:

Quoted message said:

I belive in evolution so please do not get my question like an atack. I

know

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

about all the well known cases of evolution like reptil to birds. But I

want

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to know about any evolution registered case in the last 7,000 years. I

am

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

not looking for small changes like the galapagus's birds evolution documented by darwin. I am
looking for changes in an organ or the

formation

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of new organs or new characteristics . I want to know about it even if

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

only happened in one specimen. I am looking for something like for

example a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

rabbit that was spawn with 2 hearts for backup and that is able to spawn

new

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

baby rabbits with it's caracterisctics. Is there is no case i would like

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

theorie about why not or just a simple "not yet"

I don't have an example for you off hand, although I think there are hundreds of examples that are
out there. I just want to point out that

from

Quoted message said:

your description you are not actually looking for examples of evolution. Evolution does not happen
to individuals, it happens to populations. You seem to be looking for examples of mutations with
large phenotypic

effects.

Nevertheless, it would serve us well to think that selection pressures pressure individuals (or
potentially reproducing organisms); And, that they do in life-situational real-time; And, that, if
we look back, they did throughout phylogeny.

There are different compatible ways to use our minds to compartmentalize and comprehend what kind of
potentials, and (actual) physical and chemical spacetime interactions, that constitute our
evolution.

One cannot understand evolution most encompassingly and effectively from a (however intellectually
muscular and talanted) scrutinizing stance involving statistical or otherwise mathematical
simulations (Edser, would call them oversimplified, I believe), nor, slightly less meagerly though
fun for a fair few, by making the maths more meaty by way of computer simulations.

P

In William Morse said:

still took millions of years. Possibly the best documented example of rapid evolutionary divergence
is the cichlid fishes of Lake Victoria in Africa(my recollection is that this still took several
hundred thousand years, and the speciation is not complete). A web search on this topic should give
you some good information on maximum rates of evolution.

There's a book on the subject, "Darwin's Dreampond." Those cichlids might be your best example, but
there are several other examples of speciation and other significant evolutionary change occuring in
the past few thousand years. Some are listed here: talkorigins.orgfaqOpen ↗
speciation.html biomed.brown.edu23.Cases.HTMLOpen ↗
kuro5hin.orgkuro5hin.orgOpen ↗

Here are some other examples from Stanley's 1979 book, "Macroevolution."

Some mammals have diverged rapidly since Newfoundland became separated from the mainland about 250
years ago.

Five species of cichlid fish species seem to have originated in the past 4000 years since Lake
Nabugando separated from Lake Victoria in Uganda.

Five species of Hedylepta moths that are specialized to feed on banana plants seemed to have formed
in the past 1000 years since bananas were introduced into Hawaii.

12 new species of cichlid fish and 4 new genera seem to have formed in the Barombi Mbo lake in
Cameroon in the past 100,000 years.

Several species of pupfish seem to have arisen in the pools and hot springs of Devil's Valley since
the lake there dried up about 20,000 years ago. There's a an article about the Death Valley
pupfishes: J.H. Brown's "The Desert Pupfish," Scientific American
225: 104-110. One species, C. diabolis, is striking because it's much smaller in size than the
others. The whole species is only about 500 individuals in a single thermal spring called
Devil's Hole.

More examples:

The copepod species Cyclops dimorphus seems to have arisen in less than 30 years from the time the
artificial Salton Sea of California was built in 1905 to the time it was discovered there in 1934.

The Faroe Island house mouse, Mus musculus faroensis, which might be considered a new species, arose
from house mice introduced to Faroe Island only 250 years ago.

There are probably many more examples... Some studies have shown that genetic differences between
species are often few in number, making it more plausible that speciation as well as pronounced
changes in an organism's appearance could occur over a relatively short period. The most familiar
examples are of speciation through polyploidy in some plants, but there are other examples: MD
Bradshaw in Nature 376: 762-765 (Aug. 31, 1995) identifies eight loci responsible for more than 25%
of the phenotypic variance in traits in two sympatric species of monkeyflowers that result in their
reproductive isolation. Bradshaw reviews the genetics of speciation in Genetics
225: (1) 367-382, May 1998, stating "either single genes of individually large effect or linked
clusters of genes with a large cumulative effect can play a role in the evolution of
reproductive isolation and speciation."

Paul

in article [email hidden], Peter F at
[email hidden] wrote on 10/5/03 1:49 PM:

Quoted message said:

"Guy Hoelzer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in article [email hidden], Eliezer Figueroa at [email hidden] wrote on
10/2/03 11:42 AM:

Quoted message said:

I belive in evolution so please do not get my question like an atack. I know about all the well
known cases of evolution like reptil to birds. But I want to know about any evolution registered
case in the last 7,000 years. I am not looking for small changes like the galapagus's birds
evolution documented by darwin. I am looking for changes in an organ or the formation of new
organs or new characteristics . I want to know about it even if it only happened in one
specimen. I am looking for something like for example a rabbit that was spawn with 2 hearts for
backup and that is able to spawn new baby rabbits with it's caracterisctics. Is there is no case
i would like a theorie about why not or just a simple "not yet"

I don't have an example for you off hand, although I think there are hundreds of examples that
are out there. I just want to point out that from your description you are not actually looking
for examples of evolution. Evolution does not happen to individuals, it happens to populations.
You seem to be looking for examples of mutations with large phenotypic effects.

Nevertheless, it would serve us well to think that selection pressures pressure individuals (or
potentially reproducing organisms); And, that they do in life-situational real-time; And, that, if
we look back, they did throughout phylogeny.

There are different compatible ways to use our minds to compartmentalize and comprehend what kind
of potentials, and (actual) physical and chemical spacetime interactions, that constitute our
evolution.

One cannot understand evolution most encompassingly and effectively from a (however intellectually
muscular and talanted) scrutinizing stance involving statistical or otherwise mathematical
simulations (Edser, would call them oversimplified, I believe), nor, slightly less meagerly though
fun for a fair few, by making the maths more meaty by way of computer simulations.

Thanks Peter. If I understand your point correctly, you are suggesting that adaptive processes (or
adaptive phenotypic plasticity) of individuals has more in common with evolutionary adaptation than
is currently recognized. I agree. However, I still think the questioner was confused about the
distinction, which I would not dismiss; hence my comment.

Cheers,

Guy

"Guy Hoelzer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in article [email hidden], Peter F at

Quoted message said:

Thanks Peter. If I understand your point correctly, you are suggesting

that

Quoted message said:

adaptive processes (or adaptive phenotypic plasticity) of individuals has more in common with
evolutionary adaptation than is currently recognized.

I

Quoted message said:

agree. However, I still think the questioner was confused about the distinction, which I would not
dismiss; hence my comment.

Thanks for your reply. Your interpretation of what I wrote was 'conventionally watered-down' but
accEPTable. %-)

And, I certainly don't disagree with you about the questioner.

With regards,

P