Another tire grip question

"Rik O'Shea" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

If we take it that tire thread has nothing to do with tire grip and it
is the tire compound that is the overiding factor what is the effect
of ...
.. very lighly sanding a tire (a slick tire that is) ?

I've heard that some racers do this for wet weather races - it seems
rational but is there a scientific basis for this improving grip ?

I think they're trying to ensure there's no residue from the moulding
process left on the tyre and what they've got is actual sticky rubber
touching the road.

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Rik O'Shea said:

If we take it that tire thread has nothing to do with tire grip and it
is the tire compound that is the overiding factor what is the effect
of ...
.. very lighly sanding a tire (a slick tire that is) ?

I've heard that some racers do this for wet weather races - it seems
rational but is there a scientific basis for this improving grip ?

Some trackies like to scuff up their tyres a bit too. On a smooth
wooden indoor track certain brands of slick tyre are known to be slippy.
In theory the tread makes no difference, but most riders prefer a fine
"file" tread for this type of surface.

(Rik O'Shea) said:

If we take it that tire thread has nothing to do with tire grip and it
is the tire compound that is the overiding factor what is the effect
of ...
.. very lighly sanding a tire (a slick tire that is) ?

You'll wear it out faster.

Quoted message said:

I've heard that some racers do this for wet weather races - it seems
rational but is there a scientific basis for this improving grip ?

It's a racer legend. It won't help.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
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In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...

Quoted message said:

If we take it that tire thread has nothing to do with tire grip and it
is the tire compound that is the overiding factor what is the effect
of ...
.. very lighly sanding a tire (a slick tire that is) ?
I've heard that some racers do this for wet weather races - it seems
rational but is there a scientific basis for this improving grip ?

Tread has alot to do with grip. No tread = more grip. Sanding a tire
should do nothing more than cause it to wear out faster.
---------------
Alex

Rik O'Shea (really?) said:

If we take it that tire thread has nothing to do with tire grip and
it is the tire compound that is the overriding factor what is the
effect of ... very lightly sanding a tire (a slick tire that is)?

You'll need to qualify that to appease nit pickers. You mean on
pavement no doubt.

Quoted message said:

I've heard that some racers do this for wet weather races - it seems
rational but is there a scientific basis for this improving grip?

If you believe that then you'll believe almost any old saw of
bicycling lore. Just imagine what sort of finish riding a bicycle
about a mile will give a tire. If you can't imagine it, get a
magnifying glass and look at the rolling surface of your own tire.

Bicycle racers have been known to do highly useless and unscientific
things to their equipment. Just consider all the tying and soldering
that went on for about 100 years, or the aging of tubular tires and
steel frames getting soft.

As most religions, bicycling has its fill of unsubstantiated beliefs
with the difference that these can be disproven.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Werehatrack said:

(Rik O'Shea) said:

If we take it that tire thread has nothing to do with tire grip and
it is the tire compound that is the overiding factor what is the
effect of ...
.. very lighly sanding a tire (a slick tire that is) ?

You'll wear it out faster.

Quoted message said:

I've heard that some racers do this for wet weather races - it seems
rational but is there a scientific basis for this improving grip ?

It's a racer legend. It won't help.

Do new tires have some kind of slick, mold release goo on them, that sanding
could remove?

Matt O.

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 16:24:37 -0400, "Matt O'Toole" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Werehatrack said:

(Rik O'Shea) said:

If we take it that tire thread has nothing to do with tire grip and
it is the tire compound that is the overiding factor what is the
effect of ...
.. very lighly sanding a tire (a slick tire that is) ?

You'll wear it out faster.

Quoted message said:

I've heard that some racers do this for wet weather races - it seems
rational but is there a scientific basis for this improving grip ?

It's a racer legend. It won't help.

Do new tires have some kind of slick, mold release goo on them, that sanding
could remove?

Maybe, but it would also come off in the first couple of hundred yards
of contact with paving, so why bother?
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 18:20:36 GMT, [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Bicycle racers have been known to do highly useless and unscientific
things to their equipment. Just consider all the tying and soldering
that went on for about 100 years,

Note well: while tying and soldering does nothing for wheel stiffness
and strength, that does not mean it has no value. Rather, it makes it
less likely that a broken spoke gets tangled in anything else on the
bike. This had some value with poor equipment in the past.

Simply because many people repeat myths about the practice does not
affect this benefit.

JT

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[email hidden said:

"]Rik O'Shea (really?) writes:

[snip]

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Dear Job St. Brandt,

Really? Maybe.

Could be a subtle nom-de-web, could be just Rik's name.

If you browse for R. O'Shea in an Irish phonebook . . .

goldenpages.iephonebook.htmlOpen ↗

. . . you'll find dozens of fellows named Richard O'Shea, all of whom have probably heard jokes about ricochets.

If you're worried, you could always explain your concern to Rik in a polite private email and ask him if that's really his name. If he says it is, you're about where you started. If he says it's not, your darkest fears are confirmed.

I did such things by snail mail a long time ago when I was untangling questions about authorship and their service in the CIA with James Atlee Philips and David Atlee Philips. Of course, their answers were a little less than credible, but that was half the fun. David admitted to more than his brother James, but then he'd begun publishing non-fiction books about his career.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

carlfogel said:

Quoted message said:

Rik O'Shea (really?) writes:

[snip]

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Dear Job St. Brandt,

Really? Maybe.

Could be a subtle nom-de-web, could be just Rik's name.

If you browse for R. O'Shea in an Irish phonebook . . .

http://www.goldenpages.ie/extra/phonebook.html

. . you'll find dozens of fellows named Richard O'Shea, all of whom
have probably heard jokes about ricochets.

And here I thought it was just a nice tribute to a great (and now
defunct, I think) comic strip.

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 18:20:36 GMT, [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Bicycle racers have been known to do highly useless and unscientific
things to their equipment. Just consider all the tying and soldering
that went on for about 100 years,

Note well: while tying and soldering does nothing for wheel stiffness
and strength, that does not mean it has no value. Rather, it makes it
less likely that a broken spoke gets tangled in anything else on the
bike. This had some value with poor equipment in the past.

Simply because many people repeat myths about the practice does not
affect this benefit.

JT

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Dear John,

Does tying actually restrain a broken spoke?

About nine out of ten spokes break at the elbow and in older
and presumably cross-3 styles are well-restrained by the
crossing spokes--I usually have to look for my broken spokes
and wiggle them out.

The tenth spoke breaks at the nipple (though I've never had
one break there). That's a long way from where it can be
tied and not much further from where the crossing takes
effect. Would the tying at the crossing do much to restrain
the broken nipple end?

Apart from odd crash damage, spokes almost never break
anywhere else.

So how would a spoke break in a cross-3 pattern and tangle?

I'm willing to believe that it can happen, but I can't see
yet how a straight length of spoke, broken at one end and
still held at the other end, can reach out and hook onto
anything as the wheel spins.

So I'm really asking two questions.

First, what part of a spoke tangles what part of the bike
when the spoke breaks?

Second, how would tying at a spoke crossing restrain it?

(I zip-tied spokes together years ago until I thought about
it, a blind carry-over from what I'd seen on desert
motorcycles. Maybe you'll convince me to go back to it.)

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

First, what part of a spoke tangles what part of the bike
when the spoke breaks?

Second, how would tying at a spoke crossing restrain it?

(I zip-tied spokes together years ago until I thought about
it, a blind carry-over from what I'd seen on desert
motorcycles. Maybe you'll convince me to go back to it.)

Spokes break more rarely now than years ago, but I've seen spokes
break at both ends. After an hour or so of riding I think a spoke
that broke at either end could work loose. Certainly the tinkling
sound gets worse and worse.

JT

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Matt O'Toole said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If we take it that tire thread has nothing to do with tire grip
and it is the tire compound that is the overriding factor what is
the effect of ...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

... very lightly sanding a tire (a slick tire that is)?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You'll wear it out faster.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've heard that some racers do this for wet weather races - it
seems rational but is there a scientific basis for this improving
grip?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's a racer legend. It won't help.

Quoted message said:

Do new tires have some kind of slick, mold release goo on them, that
sanding could remove?

Mold release on tire tread will definitely wear rapidly in the first
hundred yards of riding or sooner. Preserving the mold release of a
slick tread for the first turn of a race would be difficult because
as the bicycle leans into that turn, the surface gloss is gone.
Besides, I can't imagine someone mounting a new tire and carrying the
bicycle to the starting line for a virgin tread start.

I think this has gotten to a hypothetical acme about now. Tire
preparation is part of the compendium of bicycle lore.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Quoted message said:

Bicycle racers have been known to do highly useless and
unscientific things to their equipment. Just consider all the
tying and soldering that went on for about 100 years,

Quoted message said:

Note well: while tying and soldering does nothing for wheel
stiffness and strength, that does not mean it has no value. Rather,
it makes it less likely that a broken spoke gets tangled in anything
else on the bike. This had some value with poor equipment in the
past.

I doubt it, with cross laced and interleaved spokes this has not been
a problem.

Quoted message said:

Simply because many people repeat myths about the practice does not
affect this benefit.

I think you should explain that to all those who use radial spokes as
well as the many rear wheels that have at least one side radially
spoked. FSA wheels have both sides of the rear wheel radial and the
center cross laced.

I hope you have your wheels tied and soldered if you really believe
the practice has merit. Most newer bicycles don't have room for an
out of true wheel with their 1/8" clearance to the fork and
chainstays. Somehow your claim seems specious in light of these
features.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Quoted message said:

First, what part of a spoke tangles what part of the bike
when the spoke breaks?

Second, how would tying at a spoke crossing restrain it?

(I zip-tied spokes together years ago until I thought about
it, a blind carry-over from what I'd seen on desert
motorcycles. Maybe you'll convince me to go back to it.)

Spokes break more rarely now than years ago, but I've seen spokes
break at both ends. After an hour or so of riding I think a spoke
that broke at either end could work loose. Certainly the tinkling
sound gets worse and worse.

JT

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Dear John,

A spoke broken at both ends?

Good God! I'm fascinated, but puzzled.

I take it that this wasn't a crash.

Was it a matter of riding with a broken spoke that kept
banging into something until it broke at the other end? Or
what?

Carl Fogel

Tim McNamara said:

carlfogel said:

Quoted message said:

Rik O'Shea (really?) writes:

[snip]

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Dear Job St. Brandt,

Really? Maybe.

Could be a subtle nom-de-web, could be just Rik's name.

If you browse for R. O'Shea in an Irish phonebook . . .

http://www.goldenpages.ie/extra/phonebook.html

. . you'll find dozens of fellows named Richard O'Shea, all of whom
have probably heard jokes about ricochets.

And here I thought it was just a nice tribute to a great (and now
defunct, I think) comic strip.

Dear Tim,

If so, I think that Rik spells it slightly differently.

If you search the internet for "Rik O'Shea," you'll find a
minor thespian (not our Rik, I hope) who treads the broads,
if you take my meaning, in little-known films of an
excessively frank nature.

Carl Fogel

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 04:36:43 GMT, [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

I think you should explain that to all those who use radial spokes as
well as the many rear wheels that have at least one side radially
spoked. FSA wheels have both sides of the rear wheel radial and the
center cross laced.

Spokes most commonly broke on the right rear, and it is extremely rare
(and probably stupid) to lace that side. I don't understand how your
bringing up an FSA wheel (??? what is this, please explain)
demonstrates anything about a more typical lacing pattern.

Quoted message said:

I hope you have your wheels tied and soldered if you really believe
the practice has merit. Most newer bicycles don't have room for an
out of true wheel with their 1/8" clearance to the fork and
chainstays.

I'm not talking about now -- remember *you're* the one who said this
stuff has been going "about 100 years" so please do not suddenly shift
the time frame to support your point. Spokes break very rarely in
bike racing now, and bikes have tight clearances. I'm talking about
in the past -- especially in the 1950s and 1960s.

Quoted message said:

Somehow your claim seems specious in light of these
features.

I agree there is no value for tying and soldering now, and that the
claims about wheel strength and stiffness are bogus. But just because
something is explained wrong doesn't mean it never had any value.

JT

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Quoted message said:

Dear John,

A spoke broken at both ends?

Good God! I'm fascinated, but puzzled.

I take it that this wasn't a crash.

Was it a matter of riding with a broken spoke that kept
banging into something until it broke at the other end? Or
what?

I mean spokes can break at either end. The most recent experience I
had with this was three or four years ago where a friend rode 80 miles
with a spoke that broke at the nipple. It made more and more noise as
the race went on, which was very disturbing. He had an extremely
stiff rim -- a deep Zipp -- and the wobble was just minimal enough
that for at least two hours it wasn't touching the brakes.

JT

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Quoted message said:

Dear Tim,

Do you use this "Dear" to annoy people, or do you think it is being
pleasant?

JT

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