Another Ti frame thread

Artoi said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Donga said:

The LS Ultimate is a little piggy compared to many modern bikes -
something like 1350 g - Stuie's Cervelo P3 is around 850 g and has a
lifetime warranty. So even with light parts, my bike still nudges 8.5
kg for a similar price to bikes under 8.0. That said, it's a brilliant
crit bike - corners like a rocket (faster than the competition) and
doesn't waste energy in a sprint. I haven't ridden many other bikes
(why would I?) so I can't really say how good it is comparatively,
except it seems comfortable, fast and goes exactly where I point it at
whatever speed. It also creates envy. But given the choice, I'd pick
up another full Ti frame without the carbon.

Quoted message said:

Seven Cycles still produce several frames with mixed tubing, so they
must be happy. I don't know why LS stopped making them. Perhaps they
admitted to themselves there was no need, and people weren't buying
the marketing gimmick. You also have to question why [censored] around with
something that works, and introduce potential weaknesses?

Quoted message said:

There are some great Ti specials that come up, on eBay and in online
shops, if you hunt a bit and have time. Don't be in a tearing hurry to
get this one, unless you are sure.

Thanks for the detail.

At 1350g, I'd think you should be able to push the bike weight down to
sub-8kg easy with careful choice ($$) of components. This Palladio is
supposedly at 1315g. I am aiming at 7.5kg for the full bike if things
work out as planned.
--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hmm, mixed Chorus and Record, 32 h wheels with Rev spokes around
1600g, could drop 50g in stem/bar, Ti post, 300g pedals included (Time
Impact S), could drop 50g on the saddle to put in a contoured board.
Not a lot to trim without great expense. Are your measurements minus
pedals?

Donga

In article <[email hidden]>,

Donga said:

Hmm, mixed Chorus and Record, 32 h wheels with Rev spokes around
1600g, could drop 50g in stem/bar, Ti post, 300g pedals included (Time
Impact S), could drop 50g on the saddle to put in a contoured board.
Not a lot to trim without great expense. Are your measurements minus
pedals?

Ummm... I haven't done a detailed calc. Just based on a guesstimate with
reference to my present bike with Veloce triple. Just swapping out the
triple crankset and BB to that of Chorus UT double or CT would save a
significant amount. Otherwise it's Ritchey WCS alloy bar/stem/seatpost.
The 1450g wheelset helps too.
--

Artoi said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
Morten Reippuert Knudsen<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

At least Merlin and Litespeed dropped the idea together with
integrated headsets - another con of Opera Paladium.

Quoted message said:

Integrated headset? I didn't think that Opera Palladium had integrated
headset. There was nothing special with the headset as far as I could
tell.

look again.

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.

David L. Johnson said:

Morten Reippuert Knudsen wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the durability of the joning between carbon and titanium.

Quoted message said:

In general that is a real concern, but there have been people doing this
for some time, with good success.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the durability of carbon - the reaseon why i wanted ti.

Quoted message said:

Well,... in that case, get ti. Seriously, if your major concern is
longevity, an all-ti frame is hard to beat, especially if it is _not_
stupid-light.

?? thatds whate i wrote, or at least gues i was. My consern was the
durability of carbon. I wanted Ti because of the durability.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the duarbility of the integrated headset.

Quoted message said:

IMO a bad idea. Headsets can wear out, or at least parts will. Who
knows whether the bearings or press-in cups will be available in 5
years? If it is a standard headset, you can replace the whole thing if
the particular brand/model is no longer made, but it's a shame to throw
away a good (and expensive) frame because you can't find a headset part.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the stupidity of using a carbon rear on a Ti frame.

Quoted message said:

Not my choice, but...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the tubes where not seamless.

Quoted message said:

Huh? Is this 6/4 alloy?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It has a clear paint coat opposed to brushed raw titanium.

Quoted message said:

Boo. IMNSHO titanium should not be painted, and clearcoating is oubly
bad. No reason to do that.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the weelds where not as nice as the Litespeed Firentze in the shop

Quoted message said:

Now, why is it that you want this bike?

???? i don't! I considered it last year and bought a Merlin instead.
Your are commenting my list of reasons for _not_ buying the Opera.

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.

David L. Johnson said:

Morten Reippuert Knudsen wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the durability of the joning between carbon and titanium.

Quoted message said:

In general that is a real concern, but there have been people doing this
for some time, with good success.

Yes, but those frames haven't been used for more than 5 years, a ti
frame should last 20 or 30 years. I doubt that those ti/carbon frames
will last that long.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the durability of carbon - the reaseon why i wanted ti.

Quoted message said:

Well,... in that case, get ti. Seriously, if your major concern is
longevity, an all-ti frame is hard to beat, especially if it is _not_
stupid-light.

read again "the reaseon why i wanted ti" and the reasen why i didn't
want the Opera.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the duarbility of the integrated headset.

Quoted message said:

IMO a bad idea. Headsets can wear out, or at least parts will. Who
knows whether the bearings or press-in cups will be available in 5
years? If it is a standard headset, you can replace the whole thing if
the particular brand/model is no longer made, but it's a shame to throw
away a good (and expensive) frame because you can't find a headset part.

My primarly reasons for /not/ wanting an integreated hedset are /not/ that
it may be difficult to get spare parts. My reasons are that integrated
headset is an infiriour construction which over time potentially can
dammage the frame as mentioned in this article:
<http://www.chrisking.com/tech/int_headsets_explained/int_hds_explain_1.html>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the stupidity of using a carbon rear on a Ti frame.

Quoted message said:

Not my choice, but...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the tubes where not seamless.

Quoted message said:

Huh? Is this 6/4 alloy?

No, ordinary 3/2,5. Bianchi's, Omega's, Aribourne's (or what they call
themselves this year) and some of Litespeeds Ti offerings are
non-seamless as well.
In fact Merlin seems to be the only manufacture who's entirely
commited to seamless ti tubing. (their now dicontinued 6/4 version of
the Works CR where also seamless)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It has a clear paint coat opposed to brushed raw titanium.

Quoted message said:

Boo. IMNSHO titanium should not be painted, and clearcoating is oubly
bad. No reason to do that.

exactly.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the weelds where not as nice as the Litespeed Firentze in the shop

Quoted message said:

Now, why is it that you want this bike?

I didn't. Read my posting again. You are commenting on my list of
reasons why i didn't get the Opera.

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.

Artoi said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
"David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the duarbility of the integrated headset.

IMO a bad idea. Headsets can wear out, or at least parts will. Who
knows whether the bearings or press-in cups will be available in 5
years? If it is a standard headset, you can replace the whole thing if
the particular brand/model is no longer made, but it's a shame to throw
away a good (and expensive) frame because you can't find a headset part.

Quoted message said:

I am not sure that Opera Palladio has integrated headset. Can any one
verify this one?

All those i saw in here in Copenhagen had integrated headset. Just as
all other Pinarello/Opreas within thew last 5 years.

Here is at pic of the frame/bike i considered, in fact this is exactly
the one... <http://fabin.dk/imagecatalog/OPERA_Palladio_1.jpg>

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.

Artoi said:

Interesting set of concerns. The joint b/n CF and Ti is probably ok
given that there are so many Alu/CF frames these days.

They are getting fewer, and they are not ment to last more than a few
years. A Ti frame is ment to last a lifetime.

Quoted message said:

There must be
some good durability data on that. I didn't notice that the tubes
weren't seamless, I'll have to have another look at that one.

most Ti bikes uses non seamless tubes.

If Merlin or Litespeed are to expensive you could take a lok on
Airbourne/Van Nicholas <http://www.vannicholas.com> or the Ti frames
sold by a guy who's been writing in rec.bicycles.tech for years (Micky
somthing). And if youre in the marked for a cheap custum Ti frame
there is: <http://setavento.com/>.

My final dicision was between a Merlin (Spectrum would take too long
and be to troublesome) and a cheaper custum Setavento. I opted for the
Merlin becuase of the marginally lower weight and because my LBS could
get it within in 6 weeks. The Setavento would take considerably longer
and i had already spent 6 month diciding between a nice Look 481SL
carbon frame and Titanium.

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.

Morten Reippuert Knudsen said:

or the Ti frames
sold by a guy who's been writing in rec.bicycles.tech for years (Micky
somthing)

Mouse.

Sorry, Mark.

It's Mark Hickey, Morten.

--
Ted Bennett
Portland, Orygun

In article <[email hidden]>,

Morten Reippuert Knudsen said:

Artoi said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
"David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> the duarbility of the integrated headset.

IMO a bad idea. Headsets can wear out, or at least parts will. Who
knows whether the bearings or press-in cups will be available in 5
years? If it is a standard headset, you can replace the whole thing if
the particular brand/model is no longer made, but it's a shame to throw
away a good (and expensive) frame because you can't find a headset part.

Quoted message said:

I am not sure that Opera Palladio has integrated headset. Can any one
verify this one?

All those i saw in here in Copenhagen had integrated headset. Just as
all other Pinarello/Opreas within thew last 5 years.

Here is at pic of the frame/bike i considered, in fact this is exactly
the one... <http://fabin.dk/imagecatalog/OPERA_Palladio_1.jpg>

You are right. I checked again and indeed it is an integrated headset of
some sort. Reading elsewhere, there seemed to be a whole bunch of
different integrated headset designs as well as partial intergrated.
Never knew that there are so many different standards out there with
headsets. It was a bit of a shock but now I know.
--

In article <[email hidden]>,

Morten Reippuert Knudsen said:

Artoi said:

Interesting set of concerns. The joint b/n CF and Ti is probably ok
given that there are so many Alu/CF frames these days.

They are getting fewer, and they are not ment to last more than a few
years. A Ti frame is ment to last a lifetime.

That's logical.

Quoted message said:

If Merlin or Litespeed are to expensive you could take a lok on
Airbourne/Van Nicholas <http://www.vannicholas.com> or the Ti frames
sold by a guy who's been writing in rec.bicycles.tech for years (Micky
somthing). And if youre in the marked for a cheap custum Ti frame
there is: <http://setavento.com/>.

Well, I wasn't specifically looking for a Ti frame in the first place,
but just came across it at a significant discount and thought it's not a
bad Italian frame worthy of consideration. I'll think some more.
--

In article <[email hidden]>,

Morten Reippuert Knudsen said:

Artoi said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
Morten Reippuert Knudsen<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

At least Merlin and Litespeed dropped the idea together with
integrated headsets - another con of Opera Paladium.

Quoted message said:

Integrated headset? I didn't think that Opera Palladium had integrated
headset. There was nothing special with the headset as far as I could
tell.

look again.

Done. You were correct. It's some kind of integrated headset.

Tough part is that there are no more spec sheets I can find on the net
that lists these in detail. Don't understand why Opera/Pinarello don't
have a section on older products. Pretty cheap.
--

Artoi said:

You are right. I checked again and indeed it is an integrated headset of
some sort. Reading elsewhere, there seemed to be a whole bunch of
different integrated headset designs as well as partial intergrated.
Never knew that there are so many different standards out there with
headsets. It was a bit of a shock but now I know.

Beeing an italian frame, it's proberbly a Columbus style integrated
headset. Campy makes those and will probeply countnue dooing so for
years. As i remember Canondale use(ed) the them too.

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.

Artoi said:

Well, I wasn't specifically looking for a Ti frame in the first place,
but just came across it at a significant discount and thought it's not a
bad Italian frame worthy of consideration. I'll think some more.

If youre not looking for a fram that will last a life time and it isn't
more expensive than than the aluy, steel or carbon frames you have in mind:
go for for the Opera!

If it costs as much as a Litesspeed, Merlin, Bianchi or even a custum
setanvento: don't go for the Opera.

The ride of a Ti frame is just so nice, it can't be compared to anything
else.

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.

Ted Bennett said:

Sorry, Mark.

Quoted message said:

It's Mark Hickey, Morten.

that's the one.

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Morten Reippuert Knudsen said:

Artoi said:

Well, I wasn't specifically looking for a Ti frame in the first place,
but just came across it at a significant discount and thought it's not a
bad Italian frame worthy of consideration. I'll think some more.

If youre not looking for a fram that will last a life time and it isn't
more expensive than than the aluy, steel or carbon frames you have in mind:
go for for the Opera!

Ummm... I think "lasting for a lifetime" would be nice. The fact of the
matter is we do buy new bikes despite what I'll tell my wife. 😉

Quoted message said:

If it costs as much as a Litesspeed, Merlin, Bianchi or even a custum
setanvento: don't go for the Opera.

Well, it's not the cheapest but nor the most expensive of frames.

Quoted message said:

The ride of a Ti frame is just so nice, it can't be compared to anything
else.

That's what attracted me to consider Ti at this point.

That LBS also had a Lapiere Sandium (very light weight) and a Pinarello
(Alu/CF) frame on offer.

I'll go back and talk a bit more.
--

In article <[email hidden]>,

Morten Reippuert Knudsen said:

Artoi said:

You are right. I checked again and indeed it is an integrated headset of
some sort. Reading elsewhere, there seemed to be a whole bunch of
different integrated headset designs as well as partial intergrated.
Never knew that there are so many different standards out there with
headsets. It was a bit of a shock but now I know.

Beeing an italian frame, it's proberbly a Columbus style integrated
headset. Campy makes those and will probeply countnue dooing so for
years. As i remember Canondale use(ed) the them too.

That's more reassuring given Campy's backing.
--

Artoi said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Morten Reippuert Knudsen said:

Artoi <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well, I wasn't specifically looking for a Ti frame in the first place,
but just came across it at a significant discount and thought it's not a
bad Italian frame worthy of consideration. I'll think some more.

Quoted message said:

If youre not looking for a fram that will last a life time and it isn't
more expensive than than the aluy, steel or carbon frames you have in mind:
go for for the Opera!

Ummm... I think "lasting for a lifetime" would be nice. The fact of the
matter is we do buy new bikes despite what I'll tell my wife. 😉

Quoted message said:

If it costs as much as a Litesspeed, Merlin, Bianchi or even a custum
setanvento: don't go for the Opera.

Well, it's not the cheapest but nor the most expensive of frames.

Quoted message said:

The ride of a Ti frame is just so nice, it can't be compared to anything
else.

That's what attracted me to consider Ti at this point.

That LBS also had a Lapiere Sandium (very light weight) and a Pinarello
(Alu/CF) frame on offer.

I'll go back and talk a bit more.
--

What are your selection criteria? I get the feeling you have not
focussed down too far yet - if Ti, Ti/C, C, Al/C and Al are still on
the range.

Donga

In article <[email hidden]>,

Donga said:

What are your selection criteria? I get the feeling you have not
focussed down too far yet - if Ti, Ti/C, C, Al/C and Al are still on
the range.

Primarily a project bike to go through a complete build. I am open to
all comers, but something different with quality is nice. CF could be
nice, but there's nothing special about them these days. As I said, I
came across the frame by accident and got my interest up. There's no
time pressure to act.
--

Artoi said:

That LBS also had a Lapiere Sandium (very light weight) and a Pinarello
(Alu/CF) frame on offer.

I'm shure that the Operea will oulast those two.

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Morten Reippuert Knudsen said:

Artoi said:

That LBS also had a Lapiere Sandium (very light weight) and a Pinarello
(Alu/CF) frame on offer.

I'm shure that the Operea will oulast those two.

I suspect so. At least the Opera would be quite unique and a good
keeper. We'll see...
--