Another pedestrian killed by a motorist

"David Hansen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_west/5035986.stm reports the
death of another pedestrian killed while walking along the pavement.
Another was seriously injured. Crashes like this are never mentioned
by those whining about pavement cyclists.

As the article is short, here it is:

Sorry David, sad as it is, I cannot see what this has to do *with* cycling.

elyob said:

"David Hansen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_west/5035986.stm reports the
death of another pedestrian killed while walking along the pavement.
Another was seriously injured. Crashes like this are never mentioned
by those whining about pavement cyclists.

As the article is short, here it is:

Sorry David, sad as it is, I cannot see what this has to do *with*
cycling.

Agreed - needs to be in uk.rec.driving or uk.transport if the point needs to
be made.

elyob said:

"David Hansen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_west/5035986.stm reports the
death of another pedestrian killed while walking along the pavement.
Another was seriously injured. Crashes like this are never mentioned
by those whining about pavement cyclists.

As the article is short, here it is:

Sorry David, sad as it is, I cannot see what this has to do with
cycling.

Nothing.
Christ, I hope he's not going to post every time someone dies.

--
Mike

David Hansen said:

Police said a dark green Subaru Legacy apparently left the B4267
Lavernock Road in Sully, Penarth, at about 1915 BST and mounted a
footpath.

Mounted a footpath, eh? Must have been an off-duty cyclist.

d.

elyob said:

"David Hansen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_west/5035986.stm reports the
death of another pedestrian killed while walking along the pavement.
Another was seriously injured. Crashes like this are never mentioned
by those whining about pavement cyclists.

As the article is short, here it is:

Sorry David, sad as it is, I cannot see what this has to do *with* cycling.

His gaff, his rules. He has linked it by mentioning pavement cycling,
which does turn up as a topic rather regularly in this group. By the
way, if you Google search all the Groups for "cyclists + pavement +
pedestrians", you get 4,160 hits. A search for "motorists + pavement +
pedestrians" produces 1,740. OK, it's not scientific (or interesting,
probably).

elyob said:

"David Hansen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_west/5035986.stm reports the
death of another pedestrian killed while walking along the pavement.
Another was seriously injured. Crashes like this are never mentioned
by those whining about pavement cyclists.

As the article is short, here it is:

Sorry David, sad as it is, I cannot see what this has to do *with* cycling.

I think it does indirectly. I believe that some 15% of pedestrian
fatalities occur after a motor vehicle has left the road.
Firstly this means that a ped is N (where N is a large positive number)
times more likely to be injured by a motor vehicle than a cyclist when
on the footpath.
Secondly, it shows that riding on the 'pavement' does not mean you are
safe from motor vehicles.
Of course some motorists drive on the footpath because it saves them time.
You can see a clip of this sort of action at:
http://www.camcycle.org.uk/campaigning/issues/mcls/
These clips were taken to highlight abuse of MCLs, which police in
Cambridgeshire 'do not consider a safety issue', but movie 2 shows
drivers, including a driving instructor, with 2 wheels in an MCL and 2
wheels on the pavement.

Actions like this at both these locations are an almost daily occurance

Jim Chisholm

David Hansen said:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_west/5035986.stm reports the
death of another pedestrian killed while walking along the pavement.
Another was seriously injured. Crashes like this are never mentioned
by those whining about pavement cyclists.

Could it perhaps be because there is no comparison?

Can you not distinguish between the deliberate act of cycling on a
pavement, despite it being illegal, and despite it causing anxiety to
pedestrians, and the unfortunate consequences of a motorist losing
control of a vehicle and mounting a pavement without a conscience
decision to so do?

Now if you can state cases where motorists are deliberately and
systematically driving along pavements with all four wheels and swerving
between pedestrians and crossing side roads rather than using the roads,
for substantial parts of their journeys[1], then that probably would be
newsworthy.

[1] Does not include crossing to a property, parking with two wheels on,
one back wheel on while turning a corner, temporarily bumping two wheels
up to squeeze through a gap - it means using it like cyclists do.

--
Matt B

Quoted message said:

I think it does indirectly. I believe that some 15% of pedestrian
fatalities occur after a motor vehicle has left the road.
Firstly this means that a ped is N (where N is a large positive number)
times more likely to be injured by a motor vehicle than a cyclist when on
the footpath.

Yebbut in the fatalities, the cyclist choses to be on the pavement the
motorist generally doesn't.

On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 12:02:25 +0100 someone who may be Matt B
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Can you not distinguish between the deliberate act of cycling on a
pavement, despite it being illegal, and despite it causing anxiety to
pedestrians,

People cycling on the pavement seldom cause this pedestrian anxiety,
unlike motorists driving on the pavement.

Quoted message said:

and the unfortunate consequences of a motorist losing
control of a vehicle

Yet you don't appear to believe that if a cyclist crashes into a
pedestrian they may have lost control of their vehicle. Why the
double standard?

Quoted message said:

[1] Does not include crossing to a property,

Crossing the pavement, providing one gives way to pedestrians using
it as per the Highway Code, is not something I complain about.

Quoted message said:

parking with two wheels on,

In the short term, forcing pedestrians to walk in the road, where
many motorists will get upset if they are "delayed" by pedestrians
bypassing vehicles parked by these idiots. In the long term,
damaging the pavement so that it becomes a trip hazard for
pedestrians and my money is spent repairing it and installing
bollards in places to keep the idiots off the pavement.

Quoted message said:

one back wheel on while turning a corner,

Failing to be in proper control of the vehicle one is driving.
Damaging the pavement and possibly killing or injuring someone in
the process.

Quoted message said:

temporarily bumping two wheels
up to squeeze through a gap

A combination of both of the above paragraphs.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

David Hansen said:

On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 12:02:25 +0100 someone who may be Matt B
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Can you not distinguish between the deliberate act of cycling on a
pavement, despite it being illegal, and despite it causing anxiety to
pedestrians,

People cycling on the pavement seldom cause this pedestrian anxiety,
unlike motorists driving on the pavement.

Can you cite cases where motorists are deliberately and systematically
driving along pavements with all four wheels, swerving between
pedestrians and crossing side roads rather than using the roads?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and the unfortunate consequences of a motorist losing
control of a vehicle

Yet you don't appear to believe that if a cyclist crashes into a
pedestrian they may have lost control of their vehicle.

What leads you to think that? Are you suggesting that all those who
cycle on the pavement have lost control of their cycle? I *am*
suggesting that the cars on pavements that you often refer are *not*
there by choice.

Quoted message said:

Why the
double standard?

No double standard. Cyclists can loose it as motorists can, but I'm not
aware of any significant pavement motoring, but I am aware of
significant illegal pavement cycling.

--
Matt B

Matt B said the following on 02/06/2006 12:02:

Quoted message said:

Now if you can state cases where motorists are deliberately and
systematically driving along pavements with all four wheels and swerving
between pedestrians and crossing side roads rather than using the roads,
for substantial parts of their journeys[1], then that probably would be
newsworthy.

Weeeell.... funny you should mention that! Had to go out in the
company van just now, and driving along the cycle/footpath leading to
work was a white Escort-type van. This wasn't just a white line on the
road - this is a full-blown wide pavement complete with kerb! There
weren't any peds or cyclists at the time though.

And as for cars driving on pavements crossing side streets, I haven't
seen that happen, but a ped crossing near me was used regularly by
motorists leaving a car park by some shops. As in they actually drove
up to the lights, pressed the button and waited, or just went across the
crossing when the green man was on. The council have now put up
railings after several complaints, but it wasn't fun before that!

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

Matt B said:

Now if you can state cases where motorists are deliberately and
systematically driving along pavements with all four wheels and swerving
between pedestrians and crossing side roads rather than using the roads,
for substantial parts of their journeys[1], then that probably would be
newsworthy.

[1] Does not include crossing to a property, parking with two wheels on,
one back wheel on while turning a corner, temporarily bumping two wheels
up to squeeze through a gap - it means using it like cyclists do.

And here was me thinking you would be objecting to those cyclists who
ride up onto the pavement, across a junction, and back onto the road to
get around traffic lights.

Or ride up onto the pavement to get around a queue of traffic.

Can't say I see cyclists doing this all the time but I certainly do
from time to time.

Glad to see it gets MattB's blessing, even if I disapprove.

Tim.

On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 13:11:16 +0100 someone who may be Matt B
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Can you cite cases where motorists are deliberately and systematically
driving along pavements with all four wheels, swerving between
pedestrians and crossing side roads rather than using the roads?

As you undoubtedly know, most pavements are too narrow for motorists
to try this.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and the unfortunate consequences of a motorist losing
control of a vehicle

Yet you don't appear to believe that if a cyclist crashes into a
pedestrian they may have lost control of their vehicle.

What leads you to think that? Are you suggesting that all those who
cycle on the pavement have lost control of their cycle?

You miss the point, whether deliberately or accidentally is
irrelevant. The question is whether cyclists who crash into
pedestrians on the pavement have lost control of their vehicle, or
not.

The bits you snipped are noted.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

David Hansen wrote:
control of their cycle?

Quoted message said:

You miss the point, whether deliberately or accidentally is
irrelevant. The question is whether cyclists who crash into
pedestrians on the pavement have lost control of their vehicle, or
not.

none of the cyclists on pavements in London who would have hit me had I not
taken evasive action as a pedestrian had lost control - they were just
inconsiderate [censored] deliberately disregarding my safety.

pk

Quoted message said:

Matt B said:

Now if you can state cases where motorists are deliberately and
systematically driving along pavements with all four wheels and swerving
between pedestrians and crossing side roads rather than using the roads,
for substantial parts of their journeys[1], then that probably would be
newsworthy.

[1] Does not include crossing to a property, parking with two wheels on,
one back wheel on while turning a corner, temporarily bumping two wheels
up to squeeze through a gap - it means using it like cyclists do.

And here was me thinking you would be objecting to those cyclists who
ride up onto the pavement, across a junction, and back onto the road to
get around traffic lights.

Or ride up onto the pavement to get around a queue of traffic.

Can't say I see cyclists doing this all the time but I certainly do
from time to time.

Glad to see it gets MattB's blessing, even if I disapprove.

I don't condone any breaking of traffic laws. I was challenging "David
Hansen"'s comparison of pavement cycling with accidents involving cars
and pedestrians on pavements. I thought that if I didn't exclude all
those exceptional activities that he would attempt to equate one of them
to deliberate use of the pavement for journeys.

My point is that the odd event where a driver or cyclist mounts a
pavement in error or in desperation to bypass an obstacle cannot be
equated to the routine and deliberate use of the pavement and
pedestrianised areas for cycling upon.

--
Matt B

Quoted message said:

none of the cyclists on pavements in London who would have hit me had I not
taken evasive action as a pedestrian had lost control - they were just
inconsiderate [censored] deliberately disregarding my safety.

Sounds just like the motorists who assume that THEY have priority over
cyclists.
Every day in Cambridge I will encounter motorists obstructing Mandatory
cycle lanes, and advisory bits at junctions are treated as 'advance stop
lines for motorists'
They will over take me and scream to a halt, obstructing me at an
'obstruction' (usually a parked car) which I could easily have passed.

The difference is that motorists kill three and a half thousand people
every year and injure tens of thousands.
How many pedestrians on pavements have been killed by cyclist in past
ten years?

Jim Chisholm

J. Chisholm said:

Quoted message said:

none of the cyclists on pavements in London who would have hit me
had I not taken evasive action as a pedestrian had lost control -
they were just inconsiderate [censored] deliberately disregarding my
safety.

Sounds just like the motorists who assume that THEY have priority over
cyclists.
Every day in Cambridge I will encounter motorists obstructing
Mandatory cycle lanes, and advisory bits at junctions are treated as
'advance stop lines for motorists'
They will over take me and scream to a halt, obstructing me at an
'obstruction' (usually a parked car) which I could easily have passed.

The difference is that motorists kill three and a half thousand people
every year and injure tens of thousands.
How many pedestrians on pavements have been killed by cyclist in past
ten years?

Jim Chisholm

One is too many, be it motorist or cyclist at fault.

J. Chisholm said:

Quoted message said:

none of the cyclists on pavements in London who would have hit me
had I not taken evasive action as a pedestrian had lost control -
they were just inconsiderate [censored] deliberately disregarding my
safety.

Sounds just like the motorists who assume that THEY have priority over
cyclists.
Every day in Cambridge I will encounter motorists obstructing
Mandatory cycle lanes, and advisory bits at junctions are treated as
'advance stop lines for motorists'
They will over take me and scream to a halt, obstructing me at an
'obstruction' (usually a parked car) which I could easily have passed.

The difference is that motorists kill three and a half thousand people
every year and injure tens of thousands.
How many pedestrians on pavements have been killed by cyclist in past
ten years?

All true but irrelevant as the point at issue was whether cyclists on the
pavement hitting pedestrians had lost control of not

pk

davek said:

I am aware of significant pavement motoring.

Can you please describe it to us, and provide references.

--
Matt B