Another Hadd test results

Quoted message said:

130bpm 6'11/k 9'57/mi (a full minute per mile slower than in April...)
140 5'56/k 9'32/mi
150 5'12/k 8'22/mi

Update. I just went out and ran 3k at 130bpm, 3k at 140 and 3k at 150.

Temp only 20°C, no wind, not muggy, a good night's sleep, evening run.

130bpm 5'37/km 9'02/mi
140 5'10/km 8'18/mi
150 4'50/km 7'46/mi

Which is much more what I was expecting.

I suppose this just means I'll have to do the whole bloody test again,
unless any of you clever lasses and lads can tell me how to extrapolate,
interpolate or otherwise masticate the data to get something useful out of
it.

"steve common" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

130bpm 6'11/k 9'57/mi (a full minute per mile slower than in April...)
140 5'56/k 9'32/mi
150 5'12/k 8'22/mi

Update. I just went out and ran 3k at 130bpm, 3k at 140 and 3k at 150.

Temp only 20°C, no wind, not muggy, a good night's sleep, evening run.

130bpm 5'37/km 9'02/mi
140 5'10/km 8'18/mi
150 4'50/km 7'46/mi

Which is much more what I was expecting.

Hot and muggy really slows me down, too.

Quoted message said:

I suppose this just means I'll have to do the whole bloody test again,

....if you want a good baseline.

Are you using this in conjunction with the Hadd base method? Or just as a
standard reading of your fitness?

I'm having such good results, that I'm not planning any speedwork prior to
my marathon on 10/01, but may increase the intensity a bit and get a couple
of tempo runs in.

-- Dan

steve common said:

I went and did the test on Friday lunchtime.

You've been Hadd.
TBR

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and
more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day
the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the
White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"Anyone with degrees from Yale and Harvard is presumed to be intelligent,
but George W. Bush has managed to overcome that presumption."

steve common said:

Quoted message said:

130bpm 6'11/k 9'57/mi (a full minute per mile slower than in April...)
140 5'56/k 9'32/mi
150 5'12/k 8'22/mi

Update. I just went out and ran 3k at 130bpm, 3k at 140 and 3k at 150.

Temp only 20°C, no wind, not muggy, a good night's sleep, evening run.

130bpm 5'37/km 9'02/mi
140 5'10/km 8'18/mi
150 4'50/km 7'46/mi

Which is much more what I was expecting.

I suppose this just means I'll have to do the whole bloody test again,
unless any of you clever lasses and lads can tell me how to extrapolate,

The linear model generally fits extremely well. (For your three data points,
the correlation is 0.9988) Unless you're worried about deviation at the top
end (I wouldn't), it's close enough.

The line of best fit is y = 0.05416 * hr - 0.3840 where y is pace in mph.

So you should get pretty close to:

160 8.28mph =~ 7:15min/mile
170 8.82mph =~ 6:48min/mile
180 9.36mph =~ 6:24min/mile

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

steve common said:

HR Donovan Dan 6/16 Dan 8/18 Steve 9/9
130 9:43 9:22 9'57

^^^^
This is a really out-of-wack data point -- big deviation from the line. You
also get a slight deflection at the top end, so 180 is probably quite close to
your max.

It seems at least from this test that the environmental conditions have a big
impact on paces at lower heart rates but not at higher ones. Your test
suggests that the mechanism for this is that the baseline (resting or at least
standing still heart rate) is higher in warm conditions.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Dan Stumpus said:

Are you using this in conjunction with the Hadd base method? Or just as a
standard reading of your fitness?

I was toying with the idea of trying his base method right away, but I think
I'll leave the experiment til after the fall marathon.

I also wanted to see how hard the test is to do, to see if it could be used
as a standard reading instead of Cooper tests and the like. Apart from
taking rather a long time (but I could drop the 180 repeat) it is not at all
hard so I'll adopt it.

Rendez-vous in a month's time.

Donovan Rebbechi said:

The linear model generally fits extremely well. (For your three data points,
the correlation is 0.9988) Unless you're worried about deviation at the top
end (I wouldn't), it's close enough.

The line of best fit is y = 0.05416 * hr - 0.3840 where y is pace in mph.

So you should get pretty close to:

160 8.28mph =~ 7:15min/mile
170 8.82mph =~ 6:48min/mile
180 9.36mph =~ 6:24min/mile

Interesting. The 160 is better than I managed (but is more like what I would
have expected), the 170 is close to the test value and the 180 is quite a
bit slower than observed.

Thanks for taking the time out to do the work :-)

Donovan Rebbechi said:

steve common said:

HR Donovan Dan 6/16 Dan 8/18 Steve 9/9
130 9:43 9:22 9'57

^^^^
This is a really out-of-wack data point -- big deviation from the line. You
also get a slight deflection at the top end, so 180 is probably quite close to
your max.

My max is at least 188, maybe 190 (though I've long used 185, first through
ignorance of the higher value, then for safety) and I do 10k's at stable
181-183, so 180 is still essentially aerobic, but given the deviation you
noted, I'll probably drop the 180 repeat from future tests.

Thanks again.

"steve common" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dan Stumpus said:

Are you using this in conjunction with the Hadd base method? Or just as a
standard reading of your fitness?

I was toying with the idea of trying his base method right away, but I
think
I'll leave the experiment til after the fall marathon.

I also wanted to see how hard the test is to do, to see if it could be
used
as a standard reading instead of Cooper tests and the like. Apart from
taking rather a long time (but I could drop the 180 repeat) it is not at
all
hard so I'll adopt it.

Rendez-vous in a month's time.

The Hadd test could just be considered a VO2max workout since that is
closely what the latter stages are.

Sam said:

The Hadd test could just be considered a VO2max workout since that is
closely what the latter stages are.

Now that would be useful. In that case I expect I need to keep the 180bpm
repeat though because I don't reach VO2max until over 180bpm (according to
sports lab)?

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

HR Dan 6/16 Dan 8/18 Steve 9/9
130 9:43 9:22 9'57

^^^^
This is a really out-of-wack data point -- big deviation from the line.

Yes, charting this makes it obvious even to me. My uphill/downhill mile
test this week seems to confirm that the second 130 reading is wrong:

I ran 7:45 on the 140' downhill mile, and 9:45 on the same uphill at 130
pulse.

If I plug in a more linear 8:45 min/mile pace, I gain 1 min/mile on the
downhill, and lose the same on the uphill. This also jibes with my easy 8
mile runs which are at 130-ish and under 9:00/mile on hilly terrain.

Quoted message said:

You also get a slight deflection at the top end, so 180 is probably quite
close to
your max.

182 is the highest reading I've gotten in the last year or so.

Quoted message said:

It seems at least from this test that the environmental conditions have a
big
impact on paces at lower heart rates but not at higher ones. Your test
suggests that the mechanism for this is that the baseline (resting or at
least
standing still heart rate) is higher in warm conditions.

I dunno. It was in the 60's both times (6:30 am), but it may have been
muggier the second time.

-- Dan

Dan Stumpus said:

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

HR Dan 6/16 Dan 8/18 Steve 9/9
130 9:43 9:22 9'57

^^^^
This is a really out-of-wack data point -- big deviation from the line.

Yes, charting this makes it obvious even to me. My uphill/downhill mile
test this week seems to confirm that the second 130 reading is wrong:

I was talking to Steve, not you.

(-;

cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dan Stumpus said:

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

> HR Dan 6/16 Dan 8/18 Steve 9/9
> 130 9:43 9:22 9'57
^^^^
This is a really out-of-wack data point -- big deviation from the line.

Yes, charting this makes it obvious even to me. My uphill/downhill mile
test this week seems to confirm that the second 130 reading is wrong:

I was talking to Steve, not you.

Well, the ^^^^'s lined up with my number, and it indeed *was* off.

So there!

-- Dan

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dan Stumpus said:

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

> HR Dan 6/16 Dan 8/18 Steve 9/9
> 130 9:43 9:22 9'57
^^^^
This is a really out-of-wack data point -- big deviation from the line.

Yes, charting this makes it obvious even to me. My uphill/downhill mile
test this week seems to confirm that the second 130 reading is wrong:

I was talking to Steve, not you.

Well, the ^^^^'s lined up with my number, and it indeed *was* off.

So there!

-- Dan

Dan Stumpus said:

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dan Stumpus said:

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote

>> HR Dan 6/16 Dan 8/18 Steve 9/9
>> 130 9:43 9:22 9'57
> ^^^^
> This is a really out-of-wack data point -- big deviation from the line.

Yes, charting this makes it obvious even to me. My uphill/downhill mile
test this week seems to confirm that the second 130 reading is wrong:

I was talking to Steve, not you.

Well, the ^^^^'s lined up with my number, and it indeed *was* off.

So there!

No, your crummy newsreader is messing up the format. It lines up with Steve's
number. Are you using a variable width typeface in your newsreader ? If so,
it's anyone's guess what lines up with what ...

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

No, your crummy newsreader is messing up the format. It lines up with
Steve's
number. Are you using a variable width typeface in your newsreader ? If
so,
it's anyone's guess what lines up with what ...

Yeah, I know about the variable width font thing -- seems to be the default
for Outlook Express. Nevertheless, you were (unintentionally) correct about
my 130 reading.

Dan Stumpus said:

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

No, your crummy newsreader is messing up the format. It lines up with
Steve's
number. Are you using a variable width typeface in your newsreader ? If
so,
it's anyone's guess what lines up with what ...

Yeah, I know about the variable width font thing -- seems to be the default
for Outlook Express. Nevertheless, you were (unintentionally) correct about
my 130 reading.

I see. I'll probably plot 'em some time today.

I'm almost motivated to do the test again, in part to see what the effect of
dropping weight is. I'm weighing in at about 148 or so these days.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Donovan Rebbechi said:

I'm weighing in at about 148 or so these days.

You little punk. My kid could kick your scrawny [censored].
TBR

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and
more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day
the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the
White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"Anyone with degrees from Yale and Harvard is presumed to be intelligent,
but George W. Bush has managed to overcome that presumption."

TheBillRodgers said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

I'm weighing in at about 148 or so these days.

You little punk. My kid could kick your scrawny [censored].

He'd have to catch me first. Good luck with that if he's a 9 minute miler like
daddy ...

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/