another field sprint

Or maybe they should make the courses more difficult.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

geesh..zurich is a field sprint..only roubaix and flanders avoided
it...and flanders was the final climb. if they keep these damn
earpieces..I think they
should limt team size so know body can control the field by chasing
everything down so easily.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

geesh..zurich is a field sprint..only roubaix and flanders avoided
it...and flanders was the final climb. if they keep these damn
earpieces..I think they
should limt team size so know body can control the field by chasing
everything down so easily.

Think it might be the drugs bringing too many riders to equal level
unnaturally?

i dunno..i think the courses are way hard enough..it is too easy for
the team manger to sit back in the car and get a chase organized
with those walkie talkies or whatever they use...leave it up
to the mangers and they wil just chase everything..it is getting like
gridiron football with the control freak coaching.

they should either get rid of the ear pieces or limit team sizes to
5 or something so it isnt so easy to pull everything back.

the only race that actually splits up is roubaix..everything else
stayed together to the last hill or whatever..pretty boring !

In article <[email hidden]>,

B. Lafferty said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

geesh..zurich is a field sprint..only roubaix and flanders avoided
it...and flanders was the final climb. if they keep these damn
earpieces..I think they
should limt team size so know body can control the field by chasing
everything down so easily.

Think it might be the drugs bringing too many riders to equal level
unnaturally?

No.

--
tanx,
Howard

"Let's turn dining back into eating."
The Descendents

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

The more organized chasing there is, the tougher the race will be, because
the pace will be higher.
So if there was less organized chasing, the race would be even less
selective.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

i dunno..i think the courses are way hard enough..it is too easy for
the team manger to sit back in the car and get a chase organized
with those walkie talkies or whatever they use...leave it up
to the mangers and they wil just chase everything..it is getting like
gridiron football with the control freak coaching.

they should either get rid of the ear pieces or limit team sizes to
5 or something so it isnt so easy to pull everything back.

the only race that actually splits up is roubaix..everything else
stayed together to the last hill or whatever..pretty boring !

[email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

i dunno..i think the courses are way hard enough..it is too easy for
the team manger to sit back in the car and get a chase organized
with those walkie talkies or whatever they use...leave it up
to the mangers and they wil just chase everything..it is getting like
gridiron football with the control freak coaching.

they should either get rid of the ear pieces or limit team sizes to
5 or something so it isnt so easy to pull everything back.

the only race that actually splits up is roubaix..everything else
stayed together to the last hill or whatever..pretty boring !

If it's so boring, stop watching and then [censored] about it.

Tom

I guess I get frusturated by the state of todays cycling, because I see so
much potential in the sport. "This could be so much greater" sort of thing.
My interest has really faded lately.

"Tom Arsenault" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

i dunno..i think the courses are way hard enough..it is too easy for
the team manger to sit back in the car and get a chase organized
with those walkie talkies or whatever they use...leave it up
to the mangers and they wil just chase everything..it is getting like
gridiron football with the control freak coaching.

they should either get rid of the ear pieces or limit team sizes to
5 or something so it isnt so easy to pull everything back.

the only race that actually splits up is roubaix..everything else
stayed together to the last hill or whatever..pretty boring !

If it's so boring, stop watching and then [censored] about it.

Tom

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

geesh..zurich is a field sprint..only roubaix and flanders avoided
it...and flanders was the final climb. if they keep these damn
earpieces..I think they
should limt team size so know body can control the field by chasing
everything down so easily.

I think team sizes should be limited in all races where any team with a
contender would otherwise be left out. FOr example, the Tour could limit the
team size to 8 (or fewer) riders and allow 2 to 4 more teams in. The same
thing could be said for any of the Protour races. I am not so sure it would
change the races all that much except allowing more potential winners to
compete (assuming the teams management knows how to select who has the
potential to win).

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

geesh..zurich is a field sprint..only roubaix and flanders avoided
it...and flanders was the final climb. if they keep these damn
earpieces..I think they
should limt team size so know body can control the field by chasing
everything down so easily.

Think it might be the drugs bringing too many riders to equal level
unnaturally?

That is one argument, but you need to also remember that this trend started
when the UCI overhauled the points system after the the Pernod award was
outlawed. The revisions made each place worth more and it makes more sense
to keep your teams intact all the way to the finish rather than using up
riders to get one guy to win or get on the podium. Prior to 1987, there
would often be a point in the race where the remaining places behind a break
were not considered worth fighting for. Training and racing with the new
incentives meant that guys were going to try harder and continue to get
stronger. It also started to make sense for the teams to pay for performance
analysis and top coaching for the entire team rather than just the stars. It
could even be argued that those changes are what caused drug use to
proliferate to the degree it has.

"Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

That is one argument, but you need to also remember that this trend

started

Quoted message said:

when the UCI overhauled the points system after the the Pernod award was
outlawed.

I haven't heard that! What to keep me from creating a prize from my lottery
winnings*, calling it the RBR dork award and awarding it to the top rider
out of whatever races I designate as worthy of such an esteemed award,
whether the races are industrial park crits, RAAM, the Doble Copacabana,
Tour du Faso, Paris Roubaix, and/or Tour de France? How do you outlaw an
award?

*Purely a hypothetical, fictional situation, of course.

"Carl Sundquist" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

That is one argument, but you need to also remember that this trend

started

Quoted message said:

when the UCI overhauled the points system after the the Pernod award was
outlawed.

I haven't heard that! What to keep me from creating a prize from my

lottery

Quoted message said:

winnings*, calling it the RBR dork award and awarding it to the top rider
out of whatever races I designate as worthy of such an esteemed award,
whether the races are industrial park crits, RAAM, the Doble Copacabana,
Tour du Faso, Paris Roubaix, and/or Tour de France? How do you outlaw an
award?

*Purely a hypothetical, fictional situation, of course.

The law was related to advertising alcohol products. I am not sure if you
really did not know that or just being funny, but it worked.

"Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That is one argument, but you need to also remember that this trend

started

Quoted message said:

when the UCI overhauled the points system after the the Pernod award

was

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

outlawed.

I haven't heard that! What to keep me from creating a prize from my

lottery

Quoted message said:

winnings*, calling it the RBR dork award and awarding it to the top

rider

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

out of whatever races I designate as worthy of such an esteemed award,
whether the races are industrial park crits, RAAM, the Doble Copacabana,
Tour du Faso, Paris Roubaix, and/or Tour de France? How do you outlaw an
award?

*Purely a hypothetical, fictional situation, of course.

The law was related to advertising alcohol products. I am not sure if you
really did not know that or just being funny, but it worked.

No, I wasn't trying to be especially funny (apart from a ridiculous
scenario). Clearly I did not recall the reason for the demise of the Pernod
award and I mistook your statement as one where the award was outlawed, not
that alcohol advertising was outlawed and the award ended as a result.

My error.

"Brenton James" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Or maybe they should make the courses more difficult.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

geesh..zurich is a field sprint..only roubaix and flanders avoided
it...and flanders was the final climb. if they keep these damn
earpieces..I think they
should limt team size so know body can control the field by chasing
everything down so easily.

More difficult courses will not necesarrily result in more attractive
racing. It are always the riders themselves who make the race, not
always the profile of the race. Sometimes the harder a race seems on
paper, the more closed the race will be. And how longer riders will
wait to use their powers. Also the weather is a important parameter
in the race development. Sometimes e.g. in FLanders wind filters 50%
of the peloton before the actual climbs zone starts, sometime the
strength of the wind keeps the peloton compact even till after the
Berendries (i.e. exploding on the climbs and coming back before the
next one).
But it's a fact that there are some fast guys like Zabel and Freire
who do not need to make the difference during the race, but just have
to wait for the sprint. If teams are build around this tactics, many
race stay closed. They have that right and the most important thing
for a rider is winning, no matter how he does it. But to me a guy
like Freire can do a lot better than speculating on his sprint. This
year's spring he actually was racing during the flemish classics, not
waiting. Sure he didn't win a race (he didn't have the experience
here yet) but this "wanting to fight" adds an extra to the class he
certainly has. We now have Boonen, great he's able to win bunch
sprints. He should be able to have a Zabel-like career with a lot of
bunch sprint victories. But i think many people over here are glad if
they heare Lefevere talk about not doing the bunch sprints anymore in
2 or 3 years and concentrating on the classics then. Winning a
Paris-Roubaix or Tour of Flanders in a Museeuw-like way still appeals
much more to the public than 2 tour stage victories and the HEW in a
mass sprint.

Kenny

"Carl Sundquist" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> That is one argument, but you need to also remember that this trend
started
> when the UCI overhauled the points system after the the Pernod award

was

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> outlawed.

I haven't heard that! What to keep me from creating a prize from my

lottery

Quoted message said:

winnings*, calling it the RBR dork award and awarding it to the top

rider

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

out of whatever races I designate as worthy of such an esteemed award,
whether the races are industrial park crits, RAAM, the Doble

Copacabana,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Tour du Faso, Paris Roubaix, and/or Tour de France? How do you outlaw

an

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

award?

*Purely a hypothetical, fictional situation, of course.

The law was related to advertising alcohol products. I am not sure if

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

really did not know that or just being funny, but it worked.

No, I wasn't trying to be especially funny (apart from a ridiculous
scenario). Clearly I did not recall the reason for the demise of the

Pernod

Quoted message said:

award and I mistook your statement as one where the award was outlawed,

not

Quoted message said:

that alcohol advertising was outlawed and the award ended as a result.

My error.

Not really, I probably should have said something more clear but I just
assumed most people knew about it. I guess technically the award was not
outlawed but the incentive for the award to be funded by Pernod or any new
sponsor was taken away for any alcohol branding. I don't even think it would
have been possible for another private entity to take over. The UCI had been
looking for ways to make their points more important (and thus the
organization) and I think Hein knew about it long enough before it happened
that he made sure the UCI was the main beneficiary (in cycling). I think I
remember hearing about it from about 2 or 3 years prior to the change. The
UCI announced their plans shortly after (if not at the same time) that it
was known that the Pernod awards (I think there were 2) were going to
disappear. Not only that, but the teams were fully ready to race in ways
that exploited the new incentives almost from the first race on the
calendar. Each year after that the training races had guys and teams showing
up better prepared than the year before. There really was an escalation each
year as the teams upped the ante to get what they thought would be some easy
early season points.

in article [email hidden], Kenny at
[email hidden] wrote on 8/30/04 12:08 AM:

Quoted message said:

"Brenton James" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Or maybe they should make the courses more difficult.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

geesh..zurich is a field sprint..only roubaix and flanders avoided
it...and flanders was the final climb. if they keep these damn
earpieces..I think they
should limt team size so know body can control the field by chasing
everything down so easily.

More difficult courses will not necesarrily result in more attractive
racing. It are always the riders themselves who make the race, not
always the profile of the race. Sometimes the harder a race seems on
paper, the more closed the race will be. And how longer riders will
wait to use their powers. Also the weather is a important parameter
in the race development. Sometimes e.g. in FLanders wind filters 50%
of the peloton before the actual climbs zone starts, sometime the
strength of the wind keeps the peloton compact even till after the
Berendries (i.e. exploding on the climbs and coming back before the
next one).
But it's a fact that there are some fast guys like Zabel and Freire
who do not need to make the difference during the race, but just have
to wait for the sprint. If teams are build around this tactics, many
race stay closed. They have that right and the most important thing
for a rider is winning, no matter how he does it. But to me a guy
like Freire can do a lot better than speculating on his sprint. This
year's spring he actually was racing during the flemish classics, not
waiting. Sure he didn't win a race (he didn't have the experience
here yet) but this "wanting to fight" adds an extra to the class he
certainly has.

I'm not saying what you're saying is invalid - but Freire's aggressiveness
was in defense of his World Cup leader's jersey after having won Milan-San
Remo (in a bunch sprint).

Quoted message said:

We now have Boonen, great he's able to win bunch
sprints. He should be able to have a Zabel-like career with a lot of
bunch sprint victories. But i think many people over here are glad if
they heare Lefevere talk about not doing the bunch sprints anymore in
2 or 3 years and concentrating on the classics then. Winning a
Paris-Roubaix or Tour of Flanders in a Museeuw-like way still appeals
much more to the public than 2 tour stage victories and the HEW in a
mass sprint.

Kenny

Well, depends. If Boonen had won in the first couple of days of the Tour,
that might have been worth more, in some way, than the victory he took on
the Champs Elysées - itself, sprinter's heaven. He did win Gent-Wevelgem
this year and will, no doubt, have his own torrid, career-long affair with
the RvV and PR...

-Sonarrat.

Sonarrat <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

in article [email hidden], Kenny at
[email hidden] wrote on 8/30/04 12:08 AM:

Quoted message said:

"Brenton James" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Or maybe they should make the courses more difficult.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
> geesh..zurich is a field sprint..only roubaix and flanders avoided
> it...and flanders was the final climb. if they keep these damn
> earpieces..I think they
> should limt team size so know body can control the field by chasing
> everything down so easily.

More difficult courses will not necesarrily result in more attractive
racing. It are always the riders themselves who make the race, not
always the profile of the race. Sometimes the harder a race seems on
paper, the more closed the race will be. And how longer riders will
wait to use their powers. Also the weather is a important parameter
in the race development. Sometimes e.g. in FLanders wind filters 50%
of the peloton before the actual climbs zone starts, sometime the
strength of the wind keeps the peloton compact even till after the
Berendries (i.e. exploding on the climbs and coming back before the
next one).
But it's a fact that there are some fast guys like Zabel and Freire
who do not need to make the difference during the race, but just have
to wait for the sprint. If teams are build around this tactics, many
race stay closed. They have that right and the most important thing
for a rider is winning, no matter how he does it. But to me a guy
like Freire can do a lot better than speculating on his sprint. This
year's spring he actually was racing during the flemish classics, not
waiting. Sure he didn't win a race (he didn't have the experience
here yet) but this "wanting to fight" adds an extra to the class he
certainly has.

I'm not saying what you're saying is invalid - but Freire's aggressiveness
was in defense of his World Cup leader's jersey after having won Milan-San
Remo (in a bunch sprint).

This spring i could agree with that tactic, but previous years he just
didn't show us enough. OK, he has a weak back, but still, so had
Fondriest. Freire is fast, no doubt, but just not of the
Petacchi-Cipollini-Steels level when they where in top form. He can
do a lot more in other type of races.

K

in article [email hidden], Kenny at
[email hidden] wrote on 8/31/04 3:27 AM:

Quoted message said:

Sonarrat <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

in article [email hidden], Kenny at
[email hidden] wrote on 8/30/04 12:08 AM:

Quoted message said:

"Brenton James" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...
> Or maybe they should make the courses more difficult.
>
> <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
>> geesh..zurich is a field sprint..only roubaix and flanders avoided
>> it...and flanders was the final climb. if they keep these damn
>> earpieces..I think they
>> should limt team size so know body can control the field by chasing
>> everything down so easily.

More difficult courses will not necesarrily result in more attractive
racing. It are always the riders themselves who make the race, not
always the profile of the race. Sometimes the harder a race seems on
paper, the more closed the race will be. And how longer riders will
wait to use their powers. Also the weather is a important parameter
in the race development. Sometimes e.g. in FLanders wind filters 50%
of the peloton before the actual climbs zone starts, sometime the
strength of the wind keeps the peloton compact even till after the
Berendries (i.e. exploding on the climbs and coming back before the
next one).
But it's a fact that there are some fast guys like Zabel and Freire
who do not need to make the difference during the race, but just have
to wait for the sprint. If teams are build around this tactics, many
race stay closed. They have that right and the most important thing
for a rider is winning, no matter how he does it. But to me a guy
like Freire can do a lot better than speculating on his sprint. This
year's spring he actually was racing during the flemish classics, not
waiting. Sure he didn't win a race (he didn't have the experience
here yet) but this "wanting to fight" adds an extra to the class he
certainly has.

I'm not saying what you're saying is invalid - but Freire's aggressiveness
was in defense of his World Cup leader's jersey after having won Milan-San
Remo (in a bunch sprint).

This spring i could agree with that tactic, but previous years he just
didn't show us enough.

I agree - this is probably his default temperament, and this spring he was
especially motivated. That's why I brought M-SR up.

Quoted message said:

OK, he has a weak back, but still, so had
Fondriest. Freire is fast, no doubt, but just not of the
Petacchi-Cipollini-Steels level when they where in top form. He can
do a lot more in other type of races.

K