another farcility...

MichaelB said:

Whats the problem? I dont see what you have to complain about. You're
right it will stop people parking there. If the bollards where not
there you would be on here saying that there are people parking on
'our' cycle path.

Bloody British people never stop whinging.

.:\:/:.
+-------------------+ .:\:\:/:/:.
| PLEASE DO NOT | :.:\:\:/:/:.:
| FEED THE TROLLS | :=.' - - '.=:
| | '=(\ 9 9 /)='
| Thank you, | ( (_) )
| URC | /`-vvv-'\
+-------------------+ / \
| | @@@ / /|,,,,,|\ \
| | @@@ /_// /^\ \\_\
@x@@x@ | | |/ WW( ( ) )WW
\||||/ | | \| __\,,\ /,,/__
\||/ | | | (______Y______)
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\//\/\\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

--
Tony

"The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
right."
- Lord Hailsham

Tony Raven said:

.:\:/:.
+-------------------+ .:\:\:/:/:.
| PLEASE DO NOT | :.:\:\:/:/:.:
| FEED THE TROLLS | :=.' - - '.=:
| | '=(\ 9 9 /)='
| Thank you, | ( (_) )
| URC | /`-vvv-'\
+-------------------+ / \
| | @@@ / /|,,,,,|\ \
| | @@@ /_// /^\ \\_\
@x@@x@ | | |/ WW( ( ) )WW
\||||/ | | \| __\,,\ /,,/__
\||/ | | | (______Y______)
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\//\/\\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

That's pretty.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Not Responding said:

Finally, as I say, councillors are not professionals; while it is
true that councillors do get paid, it is a minimal sum that works
out as less than the minimum wage and most of which gets eaten up
by expenses.

In Scotland councillors get a minimal sum (£6000 ?) PLUS expenses.
After the next LG elections they will almost get a decent living wage
PLUS expenses.

--
T h e - e x t e n d e r ! ! ! !

"David Martin" <[email hidden]> [...]

Quoted message said:

route signs up is A Good Idea and is very cheap per mile.
And without the hassle of having to do any engineering.
And without th ecurse of crappy painted pavements
And they get to meet their targets..

At last week's cycling forum, I encountered scepticism about putting
up good route signs in the town, because of the cost and the budget.
So I looked at Norfolk's Planning and Transportation Capital Programme.
http://www.norfolk.gov.uk/consumption/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&ssDocName=NCC043327

There's 15 somethings (thousand?) for *marketing* cycling in this *town*.
There's 10 for cycle signs and barriers in this *county*.

I can't see how any cyclists persuaded by leaflets will keep cycling
if they keep getting lost because of all the missing signs in this town.
These numbers seem backwards. I hope that I'm misreading them.
Help!
--
MJR/slef
http://mjr.towers.org.uk/proj/cyclynn/

Not Responding said:

The people who make the decisions are most certainly /not/
professionals. They are bog standard lay people like you and, er, me.
Indeed, they take /advice/ from professionals but when it comes to
roads related matters these experts are likely to be very car
orientated. In fact the lay councillors who appointed them will
probably have appointed them for that very reason.

The Councillors do not, I think, sit in meetings drawing up plans for
cycle facilities. They have "professional" transport planners who
produce plans for them to comment on and approve. Those are the people
that need to either raise their game to be professional and informed
about the job they are supposed to be doing, or move over.

--
Tony

"Children nowadays are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble
their food and tyrannise their teachers."
- Socrates (470 - 399 BC)

Tony Raven said:

Not Responding said:

The people who make the decisions are most certainly /not/
professionals. They are bog standard lay people like you and, er, me.
Indeed, they take /advice/ from professionals but when it comes to
roads related matters these experts are likely to be very car
orientated. In fact the lay councillors who appointed them will
probably have appointed them for that very reason.

The Councillors do not, I think, sit in meetings drawing up plans for
cycle facilities. They have "professional" transport planners who
produce plans for them to comment on and approve. Those are the people
that need to either raise their game to be professional and informed
about the job they are supposed to be doing, or move over.

Are not they 'employed' by and accountable to the councillors?

John B

Tony Raven said:

. Those are the
people that need to either raise their game to be professional and
informed about the job they are supposed to be doing, or move over.

They are no less competent in providing cycling facilities than in many
other aspects of Local Authority operations - and there are many other
things that rightly have a higher priority.

10m cycle lanes ending at a fence are no more stupid than many of the
actions & proposals I experienced as a school governor.

pk

On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 11:16:31 +0100 someone who may be John B
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The Councillors do not, I think, sit in meetings drawing up plans for
cycle facilities. They have "professional" transport planners who
produce plans for them to comment on and approve. Those are the people
that need to either raise their game to be professional and informed
about the job they are supposed to be doing, or move over.

Are not they 'employed' by and accountable to the councillors?

Only in theory, though it does vary from council to council.

Edinburgh officials have twice kept plans to build a waste dump in
Leith away from councillors, until it got into the mass media. The
councillors were particularly unimpressed, as the first time the
officials tried this they had been told to be more open in future.
http://news.scotsman.com/edinburgh.cfm?id=559822006

Even when cyclists turn up at all the meetings officials will always
ignore them for other agendas. Two examples in Edinburgh are the
ridiculous "cycle path" alongside the bouncing bus track and their
inability to put the cycle lanes on Princes Street on the correct
side of the road.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

"Simon Bennett" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tony Raven said:

.:\:/:.
+-------------------+ .:\:\:/:/:.
| PLEASE DO NOT | :.:\:\:/:/:.:
| FEED THE TROLLS | :=.' - - '.=:
| | '=(\ 9 9 /)='
| Thank you, | ( (_) )
| URC | /`-vvv-'\
+-------------------+ / \
| | @@@ / /|,,,,,|\ \
| | @@@ /_// /^\ \\_\
@x@@x@ | | |/ WW( ( ) )WW
\||||/ | | \| __\,,\ /,,/__
\||/ | | | (______Y______)
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\//\/\\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

That's pretty.

Nearly got it right too!

--
Trevor A Panther

In article <[email hidden]>,

John B said:

Are not they 'employed' by and accountable to the councillors?

Allegedly

--
T h e - e x t e n d e r ! ! ! !

"David Martin" <[email hidden]> wrote

[snip]

Quoted message said:

I have just found the Dundee ones very quickly on-line and will
certainly keep my eyes open for anything worth attending. Not sure
though whether the cycling comes under transport or leisure and

arts.

Quoted message said:

It might come under both.

[snip]

Planning might matter, too. For example, what are the requirements
about bike parking in new housing? What sort of "planning guidance"
does Scotland have to prevent "broccoli sprawl" and increase
permeability for cyclists, or to make shops accessible to those
without cars? What quid-pro-quos can one extract from developers for
allowing them to do something?

In my experience planners design prettier but even more poorly
engineered facilities than traffic engineers. Their nod to
sustainability is to build very narrow, indirect roads, and expecting
cyclists to ride on the pavement. "Prestige" developments are so
shown by having fountains, which fill up with litter, and stop
working after about six months.

Jeremy Parker

"Not Responding" <[email hidden]> wrote

[snip]

Quoted message said:

The people who make the decisions are most certainly /not/
professionals. They are bog standard lay people like you and, er,

me.

Quoted message said:

Indeed, they take /advice/ from professionals but when it comes to
roads related matters these experts are likely to be very car
orientated.

Cheer up, there are now courses being offered, several days long,
which will allow the professionals to officially become expert. None
of the courses, even those organised by the CTC, have any component
where those being taught actually get on a bike.

When the system is properly up and running, those people will be
expert, you will not.

Jeremy Parker

davek said:

Spotted this one when I took a different route to the station from
normal yesterday morning.

A bit of history: until about a year ago, this was a road in very poor
condition, with a narrow footpath on one side only. On the side that
has no footpath there is a large high school, so you can imagine the
amount of traffic in the mornings (on the other side, with the
footpath, it is just allotments). Then the council decided to widen and
resurface the footpath, painting that nice white line down the middle
so cyclists could keep out of the way of the 4x4s dropping little Jimmy
off at school. The bollards were not there last time I looked, but I
presume they have been installed to stop little Jimmy's mum parking on
the pavement....

Here is the location of the path in question:
<url:http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?client=public&X=611500.143881434&Y=165500.638926286&width=700&height=400&gride=611530.143881434&gridn=165807.638926286&srec=0&coordsys=gb&db=GB&addr1=&addr2=&addr3=&pc=&advanced=&local=&localinfosel=&kw=&inmap=&table=&ovtype=&keepicon=true&zm=0&scale=10000&up.x=287&up.y=5>
(or <url:http://tinyurl.com/h9enj>😉

And here are the pictures wot I took:
<url:http://www.flickr.com/photos/23214729@N00/sets/72057594116579628/>
(or <url:http://tinyurl.com/gd8rz>😉

I shall be forwarding these to the WCC.

d.

Impressive...

You need to be getting on to the highways dept and getting them to fix
the charlie foxtrot there!

Jeremy Parker said:

When the system is properly up and running, those people will be
expert, you will not.

Judging by the current cycle facilities they are already nearly expert
by Neils Bohr's definition:

"An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made, in
a narrow field."

--
Tony

"The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
right."
- Lord Hailsham

Tony Raven said:

"An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made, in
a narrow field."

Expert: combination of the words "ex" and "spurt". "Ex" signifying a
has-been and "Spurt" being a drip under pressure.

--
Don Whybrow

Sequi Bonum Non Time

"I fought the Dharma, and the Dharma won." (Allen Ginsberg)

in message <[email hidden]>, Sandy Morton

(') said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Not Responding said:

Finally, as I say, councillors are not professionals; while it is
true that councillors do get paid, it is a minimal sum that works
out as less than the minimum wage and most of which gets eaten up
by expenses.

In Scotland councillors get a minimal sum (£6000 ?) PLUS expenses.
After the next LG elections they will almost get a decent living wage
PLUS expenses.

Speaking as someone who has stood for election as a councillor devoutly
hoping I wouldn't be elected, I think, if we are going to have local
government regions as large as we do, this is essential. To be a
councillor at present, you have to be

(1) of substantial private means or
(2) on a full pension or
(3) employed by a very understanding and supportive employer or
(4) corrupt

To do the job even moderately well takes a huge commitment of time and
energy, which means that you can't put that energy and commitment into
your employment.

However, the real problem is that our local government areas are vastly
too large. I'm not certain that they're the largest (by population) in
the world, but they're certainly the largest (by population) in Europe.
Democracy is hugely distant from the majority of the people. This may
make economic sense, viewed narrowly, but the cost to our civic life and
the health of our democratic institutions is appalling. In Iceland, the
average population of a local government region is about 2,700 people.
Most people know their local councillor. That seems to me to be vastly
better than the situation we have here, where we have substantially more
than 2,700 electors per councillor (and it's going up next election).

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; "If I were a Microsoft Public Relations person, I would probably
;; be sobbing on a desk right now" -- Rob Miller, editor, /.

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Speaking as someone who has stood for election as a councillor devoutly
hoping I wouldn't be elected, I think, if we are going to have local
government regions as large as we do, this is essential. To be a
councillor at present, you have to be

(1) of substantial private means or
(2) on a full pension or
(3) employed by a very understanding and supportive employer or
(4) corrupt

To do the job even moderately well takes a huge commitment of time and
energy, which means that you can't put that energy and commitment into
your employment.

However, the real problem is that our local government areas are vastly
too large. I'm not certain that they're the largest (by population) in
the world, but they're certainly the largest (by population) in Europe.
Democracy is hugely distant from the majority of the people. This may
make economic sense, viewed narrowly, but the cost to our civic life and
the health of our democratic institutions is appalling. In Iceland, the
average population of a local government region is about 2,700 people.
Most people know their local councillor. That seems to me to be vastly
better than the situation we have here, where we have substantially more
than 2,700 electors per councillor (and it's going up next election).

Speaking as someone who is a Borough Councillor I wholeheartedly agree. Our
democracy is too distant from people and is being continuously diluted by
various quangos -- often set up by government with the apparent aim of
circumventing local democracy and the opinions of local people.

T

Simon Brooke <[email hidden]> whizzed past me shouting

Quoted message said:

However, the real problem is that our local government areas are vastly
too large. I'm not certain that they're the largest (by population) in
the world, but they're certainly the largest (by population) in Europe.

In some areas they make sense though. Splitting Reading up into
separate sub-municipalities would make it extremely difficult to manage,
while at present nobody is more than three and a half miles from the
Civic Offices. There are probably about 150,000 of us which is a lot,
but at least it's compact.

--
Sue ]🙁🙂

Bicycle helmets are really a bit of a scam.
They make most cyclists slightly less safe but there's money in selling them.

Simon Brooke said:

. Democracy is hugely distant from the majority
of the people. This may make economic sense, viewed narrowly, but the
cost to our civic life and the health of our democratic institutions
is appalling. In Iceland, the average population of a local
government region is about 2,700 people. Most people know their local
councillor. That seems to me to be vastly better than the situation
we have here, where we have substantially more than 2,700 electors
per councillor (and it's going up next election).

I'm sorry but the Icelandic comparison is a ridiculous one to make:

Total population:
Iceland: 299,388 (July 2006 est.)

UK: 60,609,153 (July 2006 est.)

pk

Simon Brooke said:

In Iceland, the
average population of a local government region is about 2,700 people.
Most people know their local councillor. That seems to me to be vastly
better than the situation we have here, where we have substantially more
than 2,700 electors per councillor (and it's going up next election).

If there was, as stated, a 35% turnout (nnigh on a third which will do
for now) then looking at the number of votes cast per candidate and
dividing by the number of seats should give an indication of the level
of representation.

In my parents ward (we didn't have an election in Dundee) the three
elected members gained about 1300 votes each. Second three were 900 and
all the rest add up to about 300.
That would give a franchise of about 2500 per councillor.

I haven't been bothered to work it out for any other wards.

...d