Another conversation with brother

I commute on an aluminum frame but want to upgrade to ti or carbon, so
I would be interested in the answer.

Rode em all. Steel is real comfy, TI is light and comfy, CF is flexie
for me and alumin is harsh. Went from alum to CF and first time stood
on the pedals on a climb thought i broke the thing due to the flex.

"Ken M" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Okay I consider my brother a bicycle idiot. He seems to think he is a
bicycle god. But any way, he seems to think that a carbon fiber frame
will hold up as well as an AL or steel frame for touring commuting. I
say that cf is not as durable as AL or steel. While cf is light and
strong for it's weight. I think for everyday use on normal city streets
and the abuse of commuting / touring. That an AL or steel frameset is
better, or even Ti. So the question is this does anyone reading this
commute / tour on a cf frame? If so what are your feelings on it? Has
any one heard of a cf frame failure while commuting / touring?

I think it's irrelevant. I know it is for me: I have two steel bikes and a
ti bike. The ti bike is the one I commute on, the steel touring bike is the
one I usually take on trips (because it's worth about a third as much), and
the steel racing bike -- by far the lightest -- I use for training.

The ti bike, which has a rack, fenders, touring wheels and tires, and all
the other junk I need for commuting is lighter than the steel touting bike
almost entirely because it has higher-grade components. Ultegra is lighter
than Tiagra; my premium Peter White touring wheels are lighter than the
off-the-shelf wheels on the tourer; etc. The contribution of the ti frame to
the weight difference is almost insignificant.

The steel racing bike is more than 10 pounds lighter than either of the
others.

As far as I know, nobody makes a CF frame that can take fenders, touring
wheels and tires, cantilever brakes, and racks. So I guess to me there's no
question to answer.

RichC

Ken M said:

Okay I consider my brother a bicycle idiot. He seems to think he is a
bicycle god. But any way, he seems to think that a carbon fiber frame
will hold up as well as an AL or steel frame for touring commuting. I
say that cf is not as durable as AL or steel. While cf is light and
strong for it's weight. I think for everyday use on normal city streets
and the abuse of commuting / touring.

Let me turn this question around: Why do you thing that CF should be
particularly susceptible to failure due to "use on normal city streets
and the abuse of commuting / touring"?

What is this abuse - 30 more pounds of load sitting on a rack?

Many of the CF frames come with lifetime warrantees, so the manufacturer's
don't seem to share your concern.

Rich Clark said:

As far as I know, nobody makes a CF frame that can take fenders, touring
wheels and tires, cantilever brakes, and racks. So I guess to me there's no
question to answer.

Rich, I think you hit the nail on the head. Every CF frame I know of is
"race-oriented", so the issues you list are real.

I'd add possible heal clearance problems with panniers due to tight,
race-oriented, rear triangles and difficulty fitting fenders to your list.

Chris Neary
[email hidden]

"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could
you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the elements I
loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

Rich Clark said:

I think it's irrelevant. I know it is for me: I have two steel bikes and a
ti bike. The ti bike is the one I commute on, the steel touring bike is the
one I usually take on trips (because it's worth about a third as much), and
the steel racing bike -- by far the lightest -- I use for training.

The ti bike, which has a rack, fenders, touring wheels and tires, and all
the other junk I need for commuting is lighter than the steel touting bike
almost entirely because it has higher-grade components. Ultegra is lighter
than Tiagra; my premium Peter White touring wheels are lighter than the
off-the-shelf wheels on the tourer; etc. The contribution of the ti frame to
the weight difference is almost insignificant.

The steel racing bike is more than 10 pounds lighter than either of the
others.

Did I mention I hate you! <g>

jj

Quoted message said:

RichC

"Chris Neary" <[email hidden] > wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Ken M said:

Okay I consider my brother a bicycle idiot. He seems to think he is a
bicycle god. But any way, he seems to think that a carbon fiber frame
will hold up as well as an AL or steel frame for touring commuting. I
say that cf is not as durable as AL or steel. While cf is light and
strong for it's weight. I think for everyday use on normal city streets
and the abuse of commuting / touring.

Let me turn this question around: Why do you thing that CF should be
particularly susceptible to failure due to "use on normal city streets
and the abuse of commuting / touring"?

What is this abuse - 30 more pounds of load sitting on a rack?

Many of the CF frames come with lifetime warrantees, so the manufacturer's
don't seem to share your concern.

Rich Clark said:

As far as I know, nobody makes a CF frame that can take fenders, touring
wheels and tires, cantilever brakes, and racks. So I guess to me there's
no
question to answer.

Rich, I think you hit the nail on the head. Every CF frame I know of is
"race-oriented", so the issues you list are real.

I'd add possible heal clearance problems with panniers due to tight,
race-oriented, rear triangles and difficulty fitting fenders to your
list.

All good points and to reiterate many, many prior posts about frame
material, you can make any material to be anything you want - light, stiff,
soft, heavy, durable, TdF throw-away, whatever. It's not the material, it's
the design and build.

As other's have stated, there's no market for a carbon frame for commuting,
with fender eyelets, clearance for racks and fenders, etc.... as there's no
reason for it. The costs are too great in laying up the mold for such a
limited production run, when the alternatives - steel and aluminum perform,
just as well and are just as reliable long term.

SB

"mrbubl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Rode em all. Steel is real comfy, TI is light and comfy, CF is flexie
for me and alumin is harsh. Went from alum to CF and first time stood
on the pedals on a climb thought i broke the thing due to the flex.

What type of bicycle did you ride with a carbon fibre frame? Contemporary
designs by and large are quite stiff. In the case of Trek, you know what you
are getting with OCLV. You can investigate its composition if you have a
mind. Other marques offer the magic "carbon fibre" without specifying its
make up. However flexy frames seem to be long past. I have a Trek C/F bike
and the frame is as rigid as a steel Bianchi which I also own.
As far as touring is concerned Trek still turn out the venerable steel T520
and also offer the aluminum 500 which is in hybrid configuration. With drop
bars, the latter might be the best bet. I also disagree with your sweeping
inference that all aluminum frames are harsh.

Regards,

Roy

In article <[email hidden]>,

CC said:

I commute on an aluminum frame but want to upgrade to ti or carbon, so
I would be interested in the answer.

Who gonna build your carbon commuter unless you're thinking of a Shaman?

"Ken M" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Okay I consider my brother a bicycle idiot. He seems to think he is a
bicycle god. But any way, he seems to think that a carbon fiber frame
will hold up as well as an AL or steel frame for touring commuting. I
say that cf is not as durable as AL or steel. While cf is light and
strong for it's weight. I think for everyday use on normal city streets
and the abuse of commuting / touring. That an AL or steel frameset is
better, or even Ti. So the question is this does anyone reading this
commute / tour on a cf frame? If so what are your feelings on it? Has
any one heard of a cf frame failure while commuting / touring?

Ken

I also have doubts about the long term durability of CF. I remember
when Spinergy Rev-X wheels were hot, then they started failing. Having a
wheel disintegrate at 30mph would be a BAD thing.

Quoted message said:

All good points and to reiterate many, many prior posts about frame
material, you can make any material to be anything you want - light, stiff,
soft, heavy, durable, TdF throw-away, whatever. It's not the material, it's
the design and build.

I know I'm moving OT, but I will point out that for really hardcore touring,
for example unsupported across the Sahara, the choice is easy - steel.

Not so much because it is more durable, but potentially a blacksmith shop in
East Overshoe Siberia could repair it.

This is not true of the other materials.

Chris Neary
[email hidden]

"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could
you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the elements I
loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

"Leonard Migliore" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

CC said:

I commute on an aluminum frame but want to upgrade to ti or carbon, so
I would be interested in the answer.

Who gonna build your carbon commuter unless you're thinking of a Shaman?

Didn't Trek just introduce a line of "sport touring" bikes, the Pilot
series? I don't know if they have eyelets, though.

Ken M said:

Okay I consider my brother a bicycle idiot. He seems to think he is a
bicycle god. But any way, he seems to think that a carbon fiber frame
will hold up as well as an AL or steel frame for touring commuting. I
say that cf is not as durable as AL or steel. While cf is light and
strong for it's weight. I think for everyday use on normal city streets
and the abuse of commuting / touring. That an AL or steel frameset is
better, or even Ti. So the question is this does anyone reading this
commute / tour on a cf frame? If so what are your feelings on it? Has
any one heard of a cf frame failure while commuting / touring?

My concern about CF in a non-racing/utility mode is not so much the
longevity, but the failure mode, especially in a crash.

That would worry me a bit too, riding down your route hitting a bump
that wasn't there the last time, and wham you got cf splinters up you
a$$!!

Ken

Yeah with steel, just about anyone with a welder can help you out, heck
even the equipment to weld AL is getting a lot more common. If you find
someone in a third world country that has even heard of cf you are
doing good!

Ken

30 pounds? I guess if you were just out for the weekend. But I was
refering to a more serious tour say two months across the U.S. Many of
the people that do that type of touring carry 70 plus pounds on the
bike.

Ken

Plus the weight of the rider.

mrbubl said:

Rode em all. Steel is real comfy, TI is light and comfy, CF is flexie
for me and alumin is harsh.

:-)

And those evaluations are true no matter what the frame design, right?
That is, an aluminum Cannondale with a 6" diameter downtube is "harsh,"
and so is an aluminum Alan with a 1 1/8" diameter downtube?

Oh, and you subscribe to Buycycling magazine too, I bet!

<chuckle>

- Frank Krygowski

Chris Neary said:

Quoted message said:

All good points and to reiterate many, many prior posts about frame
material, you can make any material to be anything you want - light, stiff,
soft, heavy, durable, TdF throw-away, whatever. It's not the material, it's
the design and build.

I know I'm moving OT, but I will point out that for really hardcore touring,
for example unsupported across the Sahara, the choice is easy - steel.

Not so much because it is more durable, but potentially a blacksmith shop in
East Overshoe Siberia could repair it.

This is not true of the other materials.

I think you can weld aluminum with a tig welder, and titanium too, if
you treat it right. As an emergency short term repair, you can probably
treat it wrong too....

I think your right though, a broken steel frame part could be repaired
easier, and by anyone with general welding knowledge, so a blacksmith or
the local metal shop could handle a temporary repair, heck Moose Tick
Auto Repair probably has a welder, and someone who knows how to use it......

W

Chris Neary said:

Quoted message said:

All good points and to reiterate many, many prior posts about frame
material, you can make any material to be anything you want - light, stiff,
soft, heavy, durable, TdF throw-away, whatever. It's not the material, it's
the design and build.

I know I'm moving OT, but I will point out that for really hardcore touring,
for example unsupported across the Sahara, the choice is easy - steel.

Not so much because it is more durable, but potentially a blacksmith shop in
East Overshoe Siberia could repair it.

This is not true of the other materials.

And if you end up in East Overshoe Siberia while touring across the
Sahara you may have even more problems than simply a broken bicycle 🙂

Ducks,

John Kane
Kingston ON Canada

Frank:

remember the rule of assumption........never mentioned frame design
just spoke in general terms of experience and FWIW the Alum was a
Cannodale and no buy cycling mag for me.....I do like Pez though