Angry about repairs! Talk me down.

"daytoncapri" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sequence of events - How to get from
1. Broken Spoke to
2. re-strung Rim to
3. another broken spoke
4. to New Wheel
in a little over two summers

Late Summer 2004 - I bring in rear wheel rim to LBS with a broken
spoke. My LBS guy says (let's call him Elmo) - "if one spoke breaks,
then it's a sign of metal fatigue all the way around the rim, the best
option is to totally restring the rim with new spokes." "I say, "OK
Elmo, if that's what you think is best." The price is a little over
$75 for the job.

Elmo either doesn't know or is lying. He should have replaced one spoke.

Go elsewhere.

daytoncapri said:

4. to New Wheel
in a little over two summers

Time is a rather useless measure when refering to the durability of
bike parts. That could be 40,000 miles or zero.

Quoted message said:

"if one spoke breaks,
then it's a sign of metal fatigue all the way around the rim, the best
option is to totally restring the rim with new spokes."

Sounds like a good way to separate a customer from his money. A single
broken spoke most certainly does not mean that they are all about to
go. On the other hand it is *possible* that this is the case. Where did
this wheel come from originally and what kind of service did it see...
and did Elmo know it's history?

Quoted message said:

June, 2006 (yesterday) - bring in the same rear rim, again with a
broken spoke. Joe then shows me that the rim itself is cracked in
multiple spots - all of the cracks are where the spokes join the rim.
He says "It's time to replace the entire unit." The cost of the unit
and labor, of considerably lesser quality than the original is about
$90.

If all the eyelets are cracking, then the original rim was defective
(or poorly designed), or overtensioned when built... or both. In any
case you should be covered by a warranty. What model rims are you
talking about?

Quoted message said:

Have I been a real chump and is it time to take my business elsewhere?

Maybe... but it could also be that Elmo doesn't realize his mistakes?
Tell him and see what he does about it. At any rate, he doesn't seem
very competent.

Ron Ruff said:

Quoted message said:

4. to New Wheel in a little over two summers

Quoted message said:

Time is a rather useless measure when referring to the durability of
bike parts. That could be 40,000 miles or zero.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"if one spoke breaks, then it's a sign of metal fatigue all the way
around the rim, the best option is to totally restring the rim with
new spokes."

Quoted message said:

Sounds like a good way to separate a customer from his money. A
single broken spoke most certainly does not mean that they are all
about to go. On the other hand it is *possible* that this is the
case. Where did this wheel come from originally and what kind of
service did it see... and did Elmo know it's history?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

June, 2006 (yesterday) - bring in the same rear rim, again with a
broken spoke. Joe then shows me that the rim itself is cracked in
multiple spots - all of the cracks are where the spokes join the
rim. He says "It's time to replace the entire unit." The cost of
the unit and labor, of considerably lesser quality than the
original is about $90.

Quoted message said:

If all the eyelets are cracking, then the original rim was defective
(or poorly designed), or over-tensioned when built... or both. In
any case you should be covered by a warranty. What model rims are
you talking about?

That is true of many rims sold today. As I have mentioned, rims
without sockets have always cracked 50 years ago as well as today.
Just because heavy deep-V aero rims can do that without sockets,
doesn't men a regular cross section rim can,... and it can't.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Have I been a real chump and is it time to take my business
elsewhere?

Quoted message said:

Maybe... but it could also be that Elmo doesn't realize his
mistakes? Tell him and see what he does about it. At any rate, he
doesn't seem very competent.

I doubt that will get you anywhere. You might give him a copy of "the
Bicycle Wheel" or better yet, get yourself one and build your own
wheels.

Jobst Brandt

daytoncapri said:

Sequence of events - How to get from
1. Broken Spoke to
2. re-strung Rim to
3. another broken spoke
4. to New Wheel
in a little over two summers

[snip]

1. If you broke a single spoke then replace a single spoke. You got
supremely fleeced.
2. Ask him if he has a tensionometer. If no, then I'd attribute the
cracking to a bad build. Yeah, I've cracked an eyelet--on the notorious
MA3s, just one, you shouldn't see a bunch of them unless the wheel was
overtensioned or it was a defective rim.

Unless you're incredibly abusive to your wheels or a clyde, then this
guy is leading you around by the nose. I'd ask around and see if other
folks got similarly gypped, and if it's a pattern, ask for a refund for
both wheelbuilds in writing, and report the shop to the Federal Trade
Commission and the Better Business Bureau. If you can keep your cool,
talk to the manager of the shop, as he/she might like to know of a
rogue employee. We've got a shop like that here in Nashville, called
the Bicycle Company--they will tell you any bold faced lie to sell you
something. Fortunately there's an honest shop across the street.

In article
<[email hidden]>,

daytoncapri said:

Sequence of events - How to get from
1. Broken Spoke to
2. re-strung Rim to
3. another broken spoke
4. to New Wheel
in a little over two summers

Late Summer 2004 - I bring in rear wheel rim to LBS with a broken
spoke. My LBS guy says (let's call him Elmo) - "if one spoke breaks,
then it's a sign of metal fatigue all the way around the rim, the best
option is to totally restring the rim with new spokes." "I say, "OK
Elmo, if that's what you think is best." The price is a little over
$75 for the job.

Spring, 2006 - bring in bike for tune-up. It is obvious that the tire
on this same rim needed to be replaced - I say, "Elmo just go ahead and
do it while you tune-up the bike." (Note that he is personally working
with this same rim about 8 weeks prior to me posting this message.)

June, 2006 (yesterday) - bring in the same rear rim, again with a
broken spoke. Joe then shows me that the rim itself is cracked in
multiple spots - all of the cracks are where the spokes join the rim.
He says "It's time to replace the entire unit." The cost of the unit
and labor, of considerably lesser quality than the original is about
$90.

He replaces the original rim with one of lesser-quality. The orginal
has sort of a triangular profile with reinforced bushings for each
spoke, and bored for a Presta valve. The replacement is for Schrader,
and has no reinforcements for the spokes.

He also replaced the tube, he showed me that the stem was separating
from the tube, from an overtigherend pesta collar He himself had
re-installed that very tube just a few weeks ago.

I feel ripped off. Am I over reacting? Somebody defend this guy.

ABOUT ME: I have been a pretty-loyal customer with my LBS for more
than 10 years. I have purchased three bikes from this guy - always at
the posted price, I have never tried to negotiate this guy down. I
have routinely brought in my bikes for beginning season tune-ups and
most repairs. It sounds like ya da ya da yada: but I really believe
that the independent owner is a good thing, and wothy of spending some
more money to keep these guys around.

I can be a klutz when it comes to bike repairs, and I look to my LBS
guy to keep my bike in good shape.

Have I been a real chump and is it time to take my business elsewhere?

You are not, but Elmo probably disagrees with me. Some
wheel builders guarantee the wheels. Get your telephone
book and start calling bicycle shops. If nobody in your
phone book will guarantee the wheels they build, you will
find wheel builders on the web who do. Sorry about your
trouble.

--
Michael Press

Ron Ruff said:

If all the eyelets are cracking, then the original rim was defective
(or poorly designed), or overtensioned when built... or both. In any
case you should be covered by a warranty. What model rims are you
talking about?

Thanks for the input.

To answer your question: Model Rims are rear rim for a Trek 7200FX,
used primarily on a local asphalt biketrail.

1. OEM - Vuela LODI VXC2.4 622 x 19 double wall

2. Elmo's Replacement - XRIM 202 by Alex

[snip]

Dear Dayton,

Peter Chisholm, who posts here as qui si parla campagnolo, builds
wheels in Boulder, Colorado, and (I think) guarantees his work. You
could do worse than to email or call him at Vecchios and find out what
he can do for you:

http://www.vecchios.com

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Michael Press said:

Quoted message said:

I can be a klutz when it comes to bike repairs, and I look to my
LBS guy to keep my bike in good shape.

If you can patch a punctured tube effectively then you can build your
own wheels just as easily. You don't need to throw yourself at the
mercy of some bicycle shop that prefers replacing components rather
than repairing what's there.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Have I been a real chump and is it time to take my business
elsewhere?

Quoted message said:

You are not, but Elmo probably disagrees with me. Some wheel
builders guarantee the wheels. Get your telephone book and start
calling bicycle shops. If nobody in your phone book will guarantee
the wheels they build, you will find wheel builders on the web who
do. Sorry about your trouble.

I think you'll have a hard time finding someone who will guarantee
rims against cracking. Today rims are so poorly designed that they
are destined to crack in a couple of thousand miles. As I said, no
sockets equals cracked rims. Show me a rim that uses sockets today
and I would guarantee such a wheel.

For most active riders with around 200 miles per week, that gives less
than a six months before cracks appear. Meanwhile, socketed rims wore
through from braking in about four or five years if ridden in the rain
now and then.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Michael Press said:

Quoted message said:

I can be a klutz when it comes to bike repairs, and I look to my
LBS guy to keep my bike in good shape.

If you can patch a punctured tube effectively then you can build your
own wheels just as easily. You don't need to throw yourself at the
mercy of some bicycle shop that prefers replacing components rather
than repairing what's there.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Have I been a real chump and is it time to take my business
elsewhere?

Quoted message said:

You are not, but Elmo probably disagrees with me. Some wheel
builders guarantee the wheels. Get your telephone book and start
calling bicycle shops. If nobody in your phone book will guarantee
the wheels they build, you will find wheel builders on the web who
do. Sorry about your trouble.

I think you'll have a hard time finding someone who will guarantee
rims against cracking. Today rims are so poorly designed that they
are destined to crack in a couple of thousand miles. As I said, no
sockets equals cracked rims. Show me a rim that uses sockets today
and I would guarantee such a wheel.

I've a set of overly built 30mm deep aero section wheels, Mavic CX30
rims, with over 20K hard miles, no cracks. I built them using your
book and writings as a guide.

How about the overly priced Mavic Open Pro, eyeleted, socketed yet,
unfortunately, welded, machined, and anodized (not hard ano)?

Quoted message said:

For most active riders with around 200 miles per week, that gives less
than a six months before cracks appear. Meanwhile, socketed rims wore
through from braking in about four or five years if ridden in the rain
now and then.

Jobst Brandt

Robin Hubert

Quoted message said:

[snip]

Dear Dayton,

Peter Chisholm, who posts here as qui si parla campagnolo, builds
wheels in Boulder, Colorado, and (I think) guarantees his work. You
could do worse than to email or call him at Vecchios and find out what
he can do for you:

http://www.vecchios.com

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

I thought right:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/7bacdd565ae19688?hl=en&

CF

I'm about a year into cycling and first bike I bought, a used $200
hybrid, starting breaking spokes on the rear drive side which is very
common. I took it to a LBS and about $20-$25 they put a new spoke
on and trued it. Lasted a few months and broke another spoke. At that
point I figured I could replace spokes myself and did, though the
consensus from virtually all LBSs was that if it keeps breaking spokes,
say up to about 6 total, then I need a new rim and/or whole new wheel.

I would say one spoke breaking and the guy telling you that you need a
whole new set of spokes is a rip-off. Or he has another boat payment
coming due.

Rick

In article
<[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Sequence of events - How to get from
1. Broken Spoke to
2. re-strung Rim to
3. another broken spoke
4. to New Wheel
in a little over two summers

Late Summer 2004 - I bring in rear wheel rim to LBS with a broken
spoke. My LBS guy says (let's call him Elmo) - "if one spoke breaks,
then it's a sign of metal fatigue all the way around the rim, the best
option is to totally restring the rim with new spokes." "I say, "OK
Elmo, if that's what you think is best." The price is a little over
$75 for the job.

Spring, 2006 - bring in bike for tune-up. It is obvious that the tire
on this same rim needed to be replaced - I say, "Elmo just go ahead and
do it while you tune-up the bike." (Note that he is personally working
with this same rim about 8 weeks prior to me posting this message.)

June, 2006 (yesterday) - bring in the same rear rim, again with a
broken spoke. Joe then shows me that the rim itself is cracked in
multiple spots - all of the cracks are where the spokes join the rim.
He says "It's time to replace the entire unit." The cost of the unit
and labor, of considerably lesser quality than the original is about
$90.

He replaces the original rim with one of lesser-quality. The orginal
has sort of a triangular profile with reinforced bushings for each
spoke, and bored for a Presta valve. The replacement is for Schrader,
and has no reinforcements for the spokes.

He also replaced the tube, he showed me that the stem was separating
from the tube, from an overtigherend pesta collar He himself had
re-installed that very tube just a few weeks ago.

I feel ripped off. Am I over reacting? Somebody defend this guy.

ABOUT ME: I have been a pretty-loyal customer with my LBS for more
than 10 years. I have purchased three bikes from this guy - always at
the posted price, I have never tried to negotiate this guy down. I
have routinely brought in my bikes for beginning season tune-ups and
most repairs. It sounds like ya da ya da yada: but I really believe
that the independent owner is a good thing, and wothy of spending

some

Quoted message said:

more money to keep these guys around.

I can be a klutz when it comes to bike repairs, and I look to my LBS
guy to keep my bike in good shape.

Have I been a real chump and is it time to take my business elsewhere?

jobst.brandt said:

Michael Press said:

Quoted message said:

I can be a klutz when it comes to bike repairs, and I look to my LBS
guy to keep my bike in good shape.

If you can patch a punctured tube effectively then you can build your
own wheels just as easily. You don't need to throw yourself at the
mercy of some bicycle shop that prefers replacing components rather than
repairing what's there.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Have I been a real chump and is it time to take my business elsewhere?

Quoted message said:

You are not, but Elmo probably disagrees with me. Some wheel builders
guarantee the wheels. Get your telephone book and start calling
bicycle shops. If nobody in your phone book will guarantee the wheels
they build, you will find wheel builders on the web who do. Sorry
about your trouble.

I think you'll have a hard time finding someone who will guarantee rims
against cracking. Today rims are so poorly designed that they are
destined to crack in a couple of thousand miles. As I said, no sockets
equals cracked rims. Show me a rim that uses sockets today and I would
guarantee such a wheel.

A friend has a pair of (socketed) Mavic CXP33 with 50k miles on them.
These are silver too, not hard anodized or colored.

Quoted message said:

For most active riders with around 200 miles per week, that gives less
than a six months before cracks appear. Meanwhile, socketed rims wore
through from braking in about four or five years if ridden in the rain
now and then.

Several wheels that friends have replaced in the last few years had 10-15k
on them. To some this might seem like a good service life, but none of
these rims were actually worn out. They all cracked around the spoke
holes. None had eyelets or sockets, and all were colored or hard
anodized. I haven't seen a truly worn out rim in years.

Matt O.

"RS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm about a year into cycling and first bike I bought, a used $200
hybrid, starting breaking spokes on the rear drive side which is very
common. I took it to a LBS and about $20-$25 they put a new spoke
on and trued it. Lasted a few months and broke another spoke. At that
point I figured I could replace spokes myself and did, though the
consensus from virtually all LBSs was that if it keeps breaking spokes,
say up to about 6 total, then I need a new rim and/or whole new wheel.

I have found that when one spoke breaks then others aren't far behind. This
is particularly true for an original wheel on the bike since you bought it.
If you can fix it yourself then you can go right ahead. But if you need to
take it to the LBS then you might just as well do the lot. A full rebuild
for me with DT SWISS Alpine III spokes cost about the same as three visits
for one spoke each, and I have a well built wheel with much stronger spokes
and only made one visit to the shop and I have a 1 year warranty on the
wheel.

However, you do need to find a good LBS shop. In fact I'd go further to an
acknowledged expert wheelbuilder.

From your experience I suggest you go somewhere else. I have a LBS that
doesn't sell bikes. Just repairs and other cycling stuff. Find a shop like
that.
Wilfred

daytoncapri said:

Sequence of events - How to get from
1. Broken Spoke to
2. re-strung Rim to
3. another broken spoke
4. to New Wheel
in a little over two summers

Late Summer 2004 - I bring in rear wheel rim to LBS with a broken
spoke. My LBS guy says (let's call him Elmo) - "if one spoke breaks,
then it's a sign of metal fatigue all the way around the rim, the best
option is to totally restring the rim with new spokes." "I say, "OK
Elmo, if that's what you think is best." The price is a little over
$75 for the job.

errrrr, thanks for playing..the problem isn't the spokes but the rim.
Reuse the spokes and get a new rim is the correct answer-

Quoted message said:

Spring, 2006 - bring in bike for tune-up. It is obvious that the tire
on this same rim needed to be replaced - I say, "Elmo just go ahead and
do it while you tune-up the bike." (Note that he is personally working
with this same rim about 8 weeks prior to me posting this message.)

June, 2006 (yesterday) - bring in the same rear rim, again with a
broken spoke. Joe then shows me that the rim itself is cracked in
multiple spots - all of the cracks are where the spokes join the rim.
He says "It's time to replace the entire unit." The cost of the unit
and labor, of considerably lesser quality than the original is about
$90.

He replaces the original rim with one of lesser-quality. The orginal
has sort of a triangular profile with reinforced bushings for each
spoke, and bored for a Presta valve. The replacement is for Schrader,
and has no reinforcements for the spokes.

'Reinforcements for the nipple' are there via a thicker section in the
rim for them but as I stated, the mistake was originally when he said
spokes were the issue, when it was always the aluminum rim.

Quoted message said:

He also replaced the tube, he showed me that the stem was separating
from the tube, from an overtigherend pesta collar He himself had
re-installed that very tube just a few weeks ago.

I feel ripped off. Am I over reacting? Somebody defend this guy.

ABOUT ME: I have been a pretty-loyal customer with my LBS for more
than 10 years. I have purchased three bikes from this guy - always at
the posted price, I have never tried to negotiate this guy down. I
have routinely brought in my bikes for beginning season tune-ups and
most repairs. It sounds like ya da ya da yada: but I really believe
that the independent owner is a good thing, and wothy of spending some
more money to keep these guys around.

I can be a klutz when it comes to bike repairs, and I look to my LBS
guy to keep my bike in good shape.

Have I been a real chump and is it time to take my business elsewhere?

see above....

Quoted message said:

Michael Press said:

Quoted message said:

I can be a klutz when it comes to bike repairs, and I look to my
LBS guy to keep my bike in good shape.

If you can patch a punctured tube effectively then you can build your
own wheels just as easily. You don't need to throw yourself at the
mercy of some bicycle shop that prefers replacing components rather
than repairing what's there.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Have I been a real chump and is it time to take my business
elsewhere?

Quoted message said:

You are not, but Elmo probably disagrees with me. Some wheel
builders guarantee the wheels. Get your telephone book and start
calling bicycle shops. If nobody in your phone book will guarantee
the wheels they build, you will find wheel builders on the web who
do. Sorry about your trouble.

I think you'll have a hard time finding someone who will guarantee
rims against cracking. Today rims are so poorly designed that they
are destined to crack in a couple of thousand miles. As I said, no
sockets equals cracked rims.

C'mon Jobst. I have built hundreds of Velocity rims in the last 6 years
and have seen one that has pulled an eyelet out..Proper design of the
wheel according to the rider and then a good buuld will ensure these
rims, Velocity Aerohead, Fusion and Deep V won't crack. I have seen far
more OpenPros and Reflexes crack than Velocity.

Show me a rim that uses sockets today

Quoted message said:

and I would guarantee such a wheel.

For most active riders with around 200 miles per week, that gives less
than a six months before cracks appear. Meanwhile, socketed rims wore
through from braking in about four or five years if ridden in the rain
now and then.

Jobst Brandt

Matt O'Toole said:

Several wheels that friends have replaced in the last few years had 10-15k
on them.

I certainly hope such short service life isn't becoming the norm.

Quoted message said:

I haven't seen a truly worn out rim in years.

I wore out front rims on two of my bikes last year but neither was
particularly new. One is a Wolber GTX and the other is the original
Rigida 13-19. Neither shows any cracks or other defects but the
sidewalls are worn concave to the point where I no longer trust them.

I have replacements for the 700c Wolber GTX but am open to suggestions
on a 27" (630 mm) rim with which to rebuild the wheel that had the
Rigida 13-19.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That is true of many rims sold today. As I have mentioned, rims

without sockets have always cracked 50 years ago as well as today.

Jobst,
was that always so also with wheels built with dedicated
washers?

Sergio
Pisa

In article
<[email hidden]>,

peter said:

Matt O'Toole said:

Several wheels that friends have replaced in the last few years had 10-15k
on them.

I certainly hope such short service life isn't becoming the norm.

Quoted message said:

I haven't seen a truly worn out rim in years.

I wore out front rims on two of my bikes last year but neither was
particularly new. One is a Wolber GTX and the other is the original
Rigida 13-19. Neither shows any cracks or other defects but the
sidewalls are worn concave to the point where I no longer trust them.

I have replacements for the 700c Wolber GTX but am open to suggestions
on a 27" (630 mm) rim with which to rebuild the wheel that had the
Rigida 13-19.

I run Sun CR-18. They work alright. Box construction,
eyelets, no sockets, plenty of metal, no hard anodizing.
They built up true.

--
Michael Press

Sergio Servadio said:

Quoted message said:

That is true of many rims sold today. As I have mentioned, rims
without sockets have always cracked 50 years ago as well as today.

Quoted message said:

Was that always so also with wheels built with dedicated washers?

Yes. We had riders with not much money who bought NISI tubular rims
with un-reinforced spoke holes and a box of washers that made
inserting spokes and spoke nipples tedious. To make up for that they
cracked. That's why we rode Fiamme (red), Super Champion, and Mavic.
Martano also used washers and they cracked.

Sockets are a must for non-aero rims, ones with rounded rectangular
cross sections ala Mavic MA-2.

Jobst Brandt