Ancient county tops - help needed please!

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi everyone

My brother and I are currently trying to walk to the highest points of
all the counties that have ever existed in England and Wales - see
here for details of our progress so far:
http://www.wheresthepath.com/County_tops/CT_A_introduction.htm

I would note that the list of counties on it isn't necessarily
correct. We're having some difficulty tracing details of the older
counties - not just where the highest point is, but where the
boundaries were, and even whether they were ever actually counties at
all. I've got as far as I can by combing the internet, and our local
library and bookshops, but I'm now a bit stuck and was hoping that
some of you out there would be able to contribute your local
knowledge.

Parts 1-3 of the following list are the areas which I believe count as
counties; parts 4-7 are the ones that I believe are not. However, if
you believe one should be "promoted" or "relegated" please let me know
(details of boundaries and/or highest point would be much
appreciated!).

1) Can anyone confirm if the following three tops are correct:
Kesteven: SK 890 237 or SK 853 310, both 150m
Holland: TF 278 286, a meagre 8m
Winchcombeshire: SO 99694 24593, 330m, same as modern day
Gloucestershire

2) I believe the following four areas were once counties, but can't
find any details of the boundaries (and therefore can't find the
highest point):
Blackburnshire
Cravenshire
Hexhamshire
Hullshire

3) I can't find any details of whether Hallamshire was a county or
just a wapentake - does anyone know? I've found an old map that
suggests that Kinder Scout was the highest point of it though.

4) I believe the following were wapentakes or hundreds, subdivisions
of counties rather than counties in their own right - they therefore
don't need to be included on our county list:

Allertonshire, Applebyshire, Bamburghshire, Carlisleshire,
Coxwoldshire, Halfshire, Howdenshire, Leylandshire, Powdershire,
Pydenshire, Salfordshire, Triggshire, West Derbyshire

5) The following areas were detached parts (or "exclaves"😉 of former
fragmented counties, and therefore don't need to be included in our
list (because the high point is in the parent county):

Bedlingtonshire, Maelor Saesneg (aka "Flintshire detached"😉,
Islandshire, Lancashire Furness (highest point is Coniston Old Man),
Norhamshire, Welsh Bicknor

6) Wivelshire was a deanery, which I assume is a religious rather than
administrative division and therefore need not be classed as a county.

7) As far as I can tell, Richmondshire has only been a modern
district.

Any help anyone could give me would be very much appreciated.

Cheers

Anth

Please link to: http://www.wheresthepath.com/index.htm

Try one of the genealogy newsgroups such as soc.genealogy.britain

They usually have some people around with this type of information

Bill

I just stick to the geographic counties I grew up with.. (no
gerymandering) A lot of the regions you metion were probably old
hundred names.

Detached areas were very common, as were boundary changes.. Ludford
kept swithcing between Shropshire and Herefordshire.

Detachments were random. Farlow on Clee Hill was Herefordshire and
Halesowen was Shropshire. Look at any old map and you will find loads
of examples.

A possible bagging ploy is to go for the Hundreds..... The old legal
districts. Have fun.

Richard Webb

Bill Brabender said:

Try one of the genealogy newsgroups such as soc.genealogy.britain

They usually have some people around with this type of information

Also some rather short-tempered individuals. Take care!
--
Dave

Ysgrifennodd "Anth" <[email hidden]> mewn neges
newyddion:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

1) Can anyone confirm if the following three tops are correct:
Kesteven: SK 890 237 or SK 853 310, both 150m
Holland: TF 278 286, a meagre 8m

I lived in Linconshire, adjacent to Holland for seven years (assuming it is
the same as the district where Spalding is now) and can confirm that it is
flat as hell. The Boston 1:50,000 map has not ONE contour line!

So 8m sounds about right! but cannot confirm.

TBH i'm looking for sympathy that someone born 8 miles from snowdon summit
should be made to live in such a diametrically opposed place. Thank god
(Mike Ruddock, IF we win tommorow!) i'm permenantly back in the shadow of
Eryri now! (with no intention to ever move, unless perhaps the Highlands or
similar).

BTW Anth, i think it's an interesting challenge you've set yourself, as you
get to see how the places have changed over time. But being a Jograffy
teecha I suppose i would say that! But it beats following a list somebody
else has set out. Tidy site too.

Good luck with the bagging.

T Dave Roberts.

--

Walk on the Wide Side...
www.daveroberts.f2s.com/

[email hidden] (RJ Webb) wrote in news:423ab4e1.10075531
@news.blueyonder.co.uk:

Quoted message said:

I just stick to the geographic counties I grew up with.. (no
gerymandering) A lot of the regions you metion were probably old
hundred names.

Detached areas were very common, as were boundary changes.. Ludford
kept swithcing between Shropshire and Herefordshire.

Detachments were random. Farlow on Clee Hill was Herefordshire and
Halesowen was Shropshire. Look at any old map and you will find loads
of examples.

A possible bagging ploy is to go for the Hundreds..... The old legal
districts. Have fun.

Richard Webb

Can you feel a new list coming on?

(Did all counties have hundreds?)

--
Adrian

Hexhamshire rang a bell. The "Hexhamshire Lass" is a song by Fairport
Convention. So I googled...

http://www.quaffale.org.uk/php/brewery/344

If it turns out not to be a real county, you might at least be able to
get a good pint!

Andy

Quoted message said:

I lived in Linconshire, adjacent to Holland for seven years (assuming

it is

Quoted message said:

the same as the district where Spalding is now) and can confirm that

it is

Quoted message said:

flat as hell. The Boston 1:50,000 map has not ONE contour line!

So 8m sounds about right! but cannot confirm.

Slightly off topic but just check out trig point at TL277896....I guess
crampons not required [:-)]

.....so far this year 16 summits
New - 16 (Marilyns 14(3 CT's), Sweats 1, Wainwrights 3, Outliers 0)
Repeats - 0 ()

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

Can you feel a new list coming on?

(Did all counties have hundreds?)

I think so, yes. With a capital aitch.

--
If you can keep your head when all around are losing theirs...
then you've failed to grasp some important aspect of the
situation.

In article <[email hidden]>, Fran
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

Can you feel a new list coming on?

(Did all counties have hundreds?)

I think so, yes. With a capital aitch.

Under various names; in the Danelaw they are Wapentakes, in Sussex,
IIRC, Lathes, in Wales, Cantrefs.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

Stewart Robert Hinsley <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Fran
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

Can you feel a new list coming on?

(Did all counties have hundreds?)

I think so, yes. With a capital aitch.

Under various names; in the Danelaw they are Wapentakes, in Sussex,
IIRC, Lathes, in Wales, Cantrefs.

Wow. I knew about wapentakes but not the others.

IIRC A Hundred means a hundred hides, which in turn is a family
unit (i.e. probably up to 100 people).

--
Adrian

Stewart Robert Hinsley said:

Under various names; in the Danelaw they are Wapentakes, in Sussex,
IIRC, Lathes, in Wales, Cantrefs.

I know of Sussex having Hundreds. For example Selsey is in the Hundred
of Manhood.

Andy

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

Stewart Robert Hinsley said:

Under various names; in the Danelaw they are Wapentakes, in Sussex,
IIRC, Lathes, in Wales, Cantrefs.

I know of Sussex having Hundreds.

And Kent as well I believe.

--
If you can keep your head when all around are losing theirs...
then you've failed to grasp some important aspect of the
situation.

"Fran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

Stewart Robert Hinsley said:

Under various names; in the Danelaw they are Wapentakes, in Sussex,
IIRC, Lathes, in Wales, Cantrefs.

I know of Sussex having Hundreds.

And Kent as well I believe.

There is a Thurrock Hundred in Essex near the Lakeside shopping centre and I
vaguely recall another Hundred in the county too.

Nick

The message <[email hidden]>
from "Nick Pedley" <[email hidden]> contains
these words:

Quoted message said:

There is a Thurrock Hundred in Essex near the Lakeside shopping centre and I
vaguely recall another Hundred in the county too.

Tendring for one but there are probably several more.

Oh yes, and don't forget the Chiltern Hundreds. If Bliar was a honest
man he would have them in his pocket already. :-)

--
Roger Chapman so far this year 17 summits
New - 11 (Marilyns 0, Sweats 1, Outlying Fells 10)
Repeats - 6 (Marilyns 1, Sweats 2, Wainwrights 6, Outlying Fells 0)

In article <[email hidden]>, Andy
Champ <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Stewart Robert Hinsley said:

Under various names; in the Danelaw they are Wapentakes, in Sussex,
IIRC, Lathes, in Wales, Cantrefs.

I know of Sussex having Hundreds. For example Selsey is in the Hundred
of Manhood.

Andy

It seems my memory was doubly imperfect - Lathes are in Kent, not
Sussex, and they're a layer between the county and the hundred.

http://www.domesdaybook.net/hs1020.htm
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

"[email hidden]" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I lived in Linconshire, adjacent to Holland for seven years (assuming

it is

Quoted message said:

the same as the district where Spalding is now) and can confirm that

it is

Quoted message said:

flat as hell. The Boston 1:50,000 map has not ONE contour line!

So 8m sounds about right! but cannot confirm.

Slightly off topic but just check out trig point at TL277896....I guess
crampons not required [:-)]

....so far this year 16 summits
New - 16 (Marilyns 14(3 CT's), Sweats 1, Wainwrights 3, Outliers 0)
Repeats - 0 ()

Nice one - with global warming that could become the first Trig Point
Island!

I seem to remember reading somewhere of someone trying to bag one trig
point of every height from 0 to 750m - I guess that one is the one to
start with!

Anth

Please link to: http://www.wheresthepath.com/index.htm

Dave Pickles <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Bill Brabender said:

Try one of the genealogy newsgroups such as soc.genealogy.britain

They usually have some people around with this type of information

Also some rather short-tempered individuals. Take care!

Dave & Bill - thanks for the idea (& the warning!), I'll give it a go.

Cheers

Anth

Please link to: http://www.wheresthepath.com/index.htm

"Dafydd Ap Arwyn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Ysgrifennodd "Anth" <[email hidden]> mewn neges
newyddion:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

1) Can anyone confirm if the following three tops are correct:
Kesteven: SK 890 237 or SK 853 310, both 150m
Holland: TF 278 286, a meagre 8m

I lived in Linconshire, adjacent to Holland for seven years (assuming it is
the same as the district where Spalding is now) and can confirm that it is
flat as hell. The Boston 1:50,000 map has not ONE contour line!

So 8m sounds about right! but cannot confirm.

TBH i'm looking for sympathy that someone born 8 miles from snowdon summit
should be made to live in such a diametrically opposed place. Thank god
(Mike Ruddock, IF we win tommorow!) i'm permenantly back in the shadow of
Eryri now! (with no intention to ever move, unless perhaps the Highlands or
similar).

BTW Anth, i think it's an interesting challenge you've set yourself, as you
get to see how the places have changed over time. But being a Jograffy
teecha I suppose i would say that! But it beats following a list somebody
else has set out. Tidy site too.

Good luck with the bagging.

T Dave Roberts.

Dave

Thanks for the compliments!

Anth

Please link to: http://www.wheresthepath.com/index.htm

"Adrian Tupper" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

IIRC A Hundred means a hundred hides, which in turn is a family
unit (i.e. probably up to 100 people).

From school days (a long time ago!!) I remember that the term "Hundred" was
applied to ancient manorial rights and required that 100 fighting men from
that area would be supplied to serve in the Kings army as "payment" for the
rights

Phil Dowrick
(hiding in the old local administrative area of Lexden & Winstree Hundred)