American Car Engineering Sucks

JTE83 said:

If you're a foreigner what do you think about American cars?

American cars are, at least for me, all about excess. Huge SUVs, minivans, etc. The kind of car you buy if you want to say to the world that you have the $$, want comfort with little performance. They is a niche market here in Italy for things like the Dodge minivans and SUVs.

I drive much smaller cars (my largest car has a 1.8 lt engine, which is about what the average american car uses to power the electric windows! 😄 ) and I am still suffering for the gasoline prices (which are well in excess of 4 USD a gallon - we pay 1.30ish Euro a liter).

Personally I do not like the look or approach used for designing most American cars (IMHO, of course), but they are made to be driven over long distances on km-wide highways. The are very unpractical for a country like Italy, where you are always driving in town centres that were built about a 1000 years ago... where it is difficult to squeeze your Fiat Panda through, let alone an SUV monster. 🙄

JTE83 said:

I especially hate GM ads, where they always tout their cars and engineering as Professional Grade. Well, if they beleive they are so good, then why aren't they capable of making a good hybrid car yet? In the early 90's there was some program by the US government to aid the Big three automakers to make hybrids, and so far now GM, Ford, and Chrysler do not have a good hybrid car in their lineup that can compete with the Toyota Prius and Honda hybrids. They beleive a good hybrid car cannot be made and that consumers don't want them. And the US Government rejected Toyota and Honda from this program.

But it's a sad fact that the Ford Escape hybrid is not doing well for them, and one customer complained that he was not getting good mileage from his Escape hybrid. Also, I see a lot of Ford Escapes on the road, but everytime I look I never see a hybrid one! I've seen a Ford Escape hybrid at the Dealership and it cost $31,000 vs about $22,000 for the regular Escape. No wonder why people aren't buying it!

The only thing GM makes that are nice are some Pontiac cars and the Chevy Corvette. Their other cars like the Chevy Lineup tout great mpg - but this is only a highway rating and actually their mileage sucks. I don't like GM's SUVs or any SUV.

The only American Car manufacturer I like is Chrysler, as I love the Dodge Grand Caravan and I drive one. I also drive a Mazda MX6 LS.

What are your thoughts about GM, Ford, or Chrysler? Do you have any insight why GM's engineering actually sucks? (Except for the Corvette).

If you're a foreigner what do you think about American cars?

the hybrid is a hoax that we all need to beware of. it is an appeasement from the auto industry to help make you feel better about the enviroment. Fact is, hybrids are NOT the most economical car to drive. Some small diesel engines will give much better mpg.

as for 'engineering' yes i agree, American cars are not the best. If you want a home from home inside your car, fridge, plasma/dvd, computer etc then i would pick an american car. If i wanted a piece of engineering excellence it would be a Ferarri, Lambo, Merc or Aston Martin. A lot of the $150,000 cars dont even have a CD player inside. Now thats class.

MountainPro said:

the hybrid is a hoax that we all need to beware of. it is an appeasement from the auto industry to help make you feel better about the enviroment. Fact is, hybrids are NOT the most economical car to drive. Some small diesel engines will give much better mpg.

as for 'engineering' yes i agree, American cars are not the best. If you want a home from home inside your car, fridge, plasma/dvd, computer etc then i would pick an american car. If i wanted a piece of engineering excellence it would be a Ferarri, Lambo, Merc or Aston Martin. A lot of the $150,000 cars dont even have a CD player inside. Now thats class.

A recent article in the New York Times actually laid out the cost breakdown for hybrids. The Ford Escape was the most economical with the hybrid version having the same life cycle cost as the standard version if gas averaged about $5.50 per gallon for the next five years. The Prius requires closer to $8.00. The low projected resale values more than overcome the fuel savings. Diesel engines on the other hand are indestructable and can run on renewable biomass fuels, which make a lot more sense than this hydrogen nonsense they're trying to sell us on. Speaking of biofuels, the one shining star on the US automotive industry is the incorporation of flex fuel systems. For the last few years our manufacurers have quietly been incorporating engines that can automatically adapt to run on any mixture of gasoline and ethanol. They conveniently waited until we had an ethanol shortage to tell us about this.

[font=Arial][font=Arial]I am a big fan of supporting local business. To that end I would really like to buy American manufactured cars but I can't bring myself to do it. I agree that the big 3 are not doing a good job of making cars that I would purchase because on average (with a few exceptions of course); they aren’t as reliable as the major imports, their gas mileage isn’t as good, the emissions are higher and they just aren’t as aesthetically appealing.[/font][/font]

[font=Arial][font=Arial]Much of the engineering that goes into American cars is designed to generate recurring revenue streams for the manufacturers. That is to say that there is designed obsolesces for many of the high dollar parts. Additionally, many of the identified design issues are not addressed due to the increased revenue from selling replacement parts. For example, GM has a known design issue with some of their automatic transmissions which causes catastrophic failure somewhere near 80k miles. It has been reported that company decided not to repair this flaw because it would cost them the many millions of dollars a year in recurring revenue they get from selling the replacement transmission which was far more than they would gain by increased customer satisifaction.[/font][/font]

[font=Arial][font=Arial]Many of the big three (Ford in particular) build cars that are based off of older designs. This is done to reduce manufacturing costs associated with retooling plants and designing new parts (fittings, engines, transmissions, etc.) Additionally, many of the parts which are used on one vehicle will be used on many different vehicle models – this is analogous to object oriented programming in the software world. This practice while efficient has stunted innovation and design.[/font][/font]

[font=Arial][font=Arial]That said, I would assert that the American engineering is NOT the problem. The problem is the way the big 3 are choosing to run their businesses and that the bottom line rather than quality is their key driver. I would also assert that this method of operation is costing them dearly. Foreign (to the US) automotive manufactures have a much larger market share now which is causing domestic manufactures to suffer major losses and, in turn, causing plant closures and falling stock prices. This will continue to be a problem until the big 3 decide to build high quality products that people want to buy - not the questionable quality products that they 'able' to build today.[/font][/font]

[font=Arial][font=Arial]FWIIW:[/font][/font]

[font=Arial][font=Arial]I would like to point out that while fuel efficiency is important (especially to the consumer with gas prices being so high) it is not the only marker of a “green” vehicle. There are 3 markers; air polluting emissions, greenhouse gas emissions and fuel efficiency. Some might argue there are other indicators including recyclablility, manufacturing processes and other materials used but I will ignore those for this discussion.[/font][/font]

[font=Arial][font=Arial]When looking at these three markers you might be surprised to learn that a Mini Cooper rates lower compared to say a Lexus IS 250 V6. This rating is based on the fact that the Cooper has a much lower EPA “Air Pollution Score” (meaning more pollutants are emitted) than the IS 250. The [/font][font=Arial]www.epa.gov[/font][font=Arial] site indicates:[/font][/font]

[font=Arial][font=Arial]Mini Cooper (1.6L 4cyl engine)[/font][/font]
[font=Arial][font=Arial]- Air Pollution Score: 2[/font][/font]
[font=Arial][font=Arial]- Fuel Economy Score: 36 cty 38 hwy[/font][/font]
[font=Arial][font=Arial]- Greenhouse Gas Score: 8[/font][/font]

[font=Arial][font=Arial]Lexus IS250 (2.5L 6cyl engine)[/font][/font]
[font=Arial][font=Arial]- Air Pollution Score: 7[/font][/font]
[font=Arial][font=Arial]- Fuel Economy Score: 24 cty 32 hwy[/font][/font]
[font=Arial][font=Arial]- Greenhouse Gas Score: 7[/font][/font]
[font=Arial](scores are on a 10 point scale with 10 being the best)[/font]

[font=Arial][font=Arial]The reason this is important and that I say the Mini is rated lower is the Air Pollution score “reflects pollutants that cause health problems and smog” - arguably one of the more important factors when considering "green" vehicles.[/font][/font]

[font=Arial][font=Arial]Now, to MountainPro’s point regarding diesel engines being more fuel efficient than hybrids. While some diesel powered vehicles will have better fuel efficiency than some hybrids when comparing same class vehicles MountainPro’s statement doesn’t hold true:[/font][/font]

[font=Arial]Vehicle Class - Sub-Compact[/font]

[font=Arial][font=Arial][/font][/font]
[font=Arial][font=Arial]Volkswagen Beatle (1.9L diesel engine) [/font][/font]
[font=Arial][font=Arial]- Air Pollution Score 1[/font][/font]
[font=Arial][font=Arial]- Fuel Economy Score 37 cty 44 hwy[/font][/font]
[font=Arial][font=Arial]- Greenhouse Gas Score 8[/font][/font]

[font=Arial][font=Arial]Honda Civic Hybrid (1.3L hybrid gas engine)[/font][/font]
[font=Arial][font=Arial]- Air Pollution Score 9.5[/font][/font]
[font=Arial][font=Arial]- Fuel Economy Score 49 cty 51 hwy[/font][/font]
[font=Arial][font=Arial]- Greenhouse Gas Score 10[/font][/font]

[font=Arial][font=Arial]And just for comparison sake…[/font][/font]

[font=Arial][font=Arial]Ford Escape Hybrid (1.4l hybrid gas engine)[/font][/font]
[font=Arial][font=Arial]- Air Pollution Score 9.5[/font][/font]
[font=Arial][font=Arial]- Fuel Economy Score 36 cty 31 hwy[/font][/font]
[font=Arial][font=Arial]- Greenhouse Gas Score 8[/font][/font]

[font=Arial][font=Arial]Volkswagen Beatle (2.5L gas)[/font][/font]
[font=Arial][font=Arial]- Air Pollution Score 9.5[/font][/font]
[font=Arial][font=Arial]- Fuel Economy Score 23 cty 32 hwy[/font][/font]
[font=Arial][font=Arial]- Greenhouse Gas Score 7[/font][/font]
[font=Arial][font=Arial](scores are on a 10 point scale with 10 being the best)[/font][/font]

[font=Arial]Given that, in general, diesels create a lot of air pollution, that air pollution causes health problems and that same class hybrids get better fuel efficiency I would say that the hybrid concept is not a hoax.[/font]

kbone said:

[font=Arial]Given that, in general, diesels create a lot of air pollution, that air pollution causes health problems and that same class hybrids get better fuel efficiency I would say that the hybrid concept is not a hoax.[/font]

That's a lot of good data. I think the hoax of the hybrid concept is in the marketing rather than performance. A lot of people seem to be sold on the concept that fuel is the only thing that costs them money and that higher mileage leads to an inherent financial savings.

I have to agree with Pete - American cars for me = excess.
The bodies of the US cars tend to be a lot bigger and therefore require more fuel to get around.

As regards the standard of engineering, I couldn't say.
I do know that Ford got themselves a terrible reputation here in Europe in the late 1970's and lost considerable market share due to elementary engineering problems.
(If I recall I think they had brake problems - but I might be wrong, it's so long ago now).

Chrysler and Daimler Benz merged some years back and I have noticed that there are more Chryslers on sale here (although Mercedes Benz and/or Daimler Benz cars sell way more than Chrysler here).

I have driven French (Puegeot and Citroen), German (Audi, VW, Mercedes) and Italian (Fiat, Alfa Romeo) cars : for me the best engineered car is a German car.
My personal preference goes to Audi and/or VW.
I have never driven a better engineered car.

Artmichalek - point taken. If you are paying $11k more for a vehicle and only saving $2k a year in fuel expenses it take a while to see the ROI. Not to mention the inherent additional cost of maintaining the hybrid (batteries etc).

That said, there is more to it than for me. Don't get me wrong, I like to save money but I am also concerned about doing my part for the environment. Hence the cycling (when I can) and driving the most "green" car I can afford.

I love American cars but on the other side I hate their "thirst". If I wouldn`t be such ecologist and if I would have enough money I would definitely buy Chrysler 300. It`s the most beautiful car in the world. But because I am ecologist I would buy Mazda 6. Mazdas are the most reliable cars and they burn very little gasoline.

I have to admit....i do like some american cars a lot.

I drive a British Ford focus, good ecomomy and good performance when you need it. German engineering, not just cars, is probably the best in the world.

To put the mpg stats of hybrids into context, the Volkswagen Lupo 1.3 Diesel can achieve 75 mpg urban and 95 on the highway....yes folks that MILES per gallon. It aslo has a turbo charger to isnt a slouch with it.

[font=Arial]Vehicle Class - Sub-Compact[/font]

[font=Arial][font=Arial]Volkswagen Beatle (1.9L diesel engine) [/font][/font]
[font=Arial][font=Arial]- Air Pollution Score 1[/font][/font]
[font=Arial][font=Arial]- Fuel Economy Score 37 cty 44 hwy[/font][/font]
[font=Arial][font=Arial]- Greenhouse Gas Score 8[/font][/font]

[font=Arial][font=Arial]Honda Civic Hybrid (1.3L hybrid gas engine)[/font][/font]
[font=Arial][font=Arial]- Air Pollution Score 9.5[/font][/font]
[font=Arial][font=Arial]- Fuel Economy Score 49 cty 51 hwy[/font][/font]
[font=Arial][font=Arial]- Greenhouse Gas Score 10[/font][/font]

LOL, those are sub-compact cars in the US... sub-compact here is the Smart or the Diesel Multijet Panda... 😄

Powerful pete...

i knew you would appreciate this...cant find the original thread where this was discussed..

apologies for the temporary diversion.

we have had this for 3 years now, its called a Trail-A-Tot (a tot is british for a young child)

my 3 year old daugter loves it!

I doubt that German cars are still the best. We had Golf 4. It was OK, but it could be better. We also know some owners who are very unhappy. I think Japanese ones are the best now. Auto Bild, German car magazine named most reliable cars. 1st Mazda, 2nd Toyota, 3rd Honda, 4th Hyundai... Hyundai surprised me a bit..it seems to be very good purchase then, considering prices..

MountainPro said:

Powerful pete...

i knew you would appreciate this...cant find the original thread where this was discussed..

apologies for the temporary diversion.

we have had this for 3 years now, its called a Trail-A-Tot (a tot is british for a young child)

my 3 year old daugter loves it!

Mountainpro, Looks very well made... complimenti. My daughter is now fixated on her Burley Piccolo (the half-bike), and she loves the ride... (the sister is in the Burley Solo)...

Daughter, mother and the Burley Piccolo...

JTE83 said:

. Well, if they beleive they are so good, then why aren't they capable of making a good hybrid car yet?

Toyota and GM design share you know. We should not get sucked in to the hybrid game. We have to look at better mass-transit and alternative fuels.

It's either that or we go back to real horse power.

lw

Hybrid vehicles get the most from their design when they are driven in a city environment (i.e, stop and go traffic). The generator function within the wheels and the relative slow city speeds (electric mode)is where the savings comes from. When you put a hybrid on the open road, such as an American Interstate, it will run primarily on it's gasoline motor. The net savings are not as great. Put the same vehicle in an Old World city, like Rome, Berlin, Paris, and your savings increases dramatically.

The hybrid won't work in America. The auto makers will simply use it to increase the fleet fuel ecomony average, and still build the Hummers. The American culture will not embrace frugality or simplicity without having it forced down it's gullet with a huge lever of reality, lubicated with a generous dollop of panic.

Some bright boy or girl may come up with an alternative fuel. Biomass, coal oil, hydrogen, wind, solar, tidal, geothermal, nuclear, fusion, etc, all have been touted as the next big energy alternative. But they are not being embraced, just acknowledged. Nothing will be done until the last minute, and we will have to pour everthing into this mess, because the auto makers are infected with the American Consumption Virus.

I would never drive an American car. I have a ten year-old Lexus ES 300 with 200,000 kms on it. Don't ask me to recommend a mechanic to you in my town -- I've never met any of them.

lwedge said:

We should not get sucked in to the hybrid game. We have to look at better mass-transit and alternative fuels.

i agree, this is a diversionary tactic from the motor industry in my opinion. Although i care from the environment, i wont buy a hybrid car. I prefer to wait until a proper alternative to petrol is found, not some half-arsed compromise.

MountainPro said:

i agree, this is a diversionary tactic from the motor industry in my opinion. Although i care from the environment, i wont buy a hybrid car. I prefer to wait until a proper alternative to petrol is found, not some half-arsed compromise.

[font=Arial]I won't buy a hybrid either. I think it is at least a step in the right direction but it is not the answer. Someone earlier in the thread hit on the real answer; alternative fuels. In particular bio-diesel fuels which are cleanly produced, clean burning and created from renewable resources.[/font]

[font=Arial]I think the 'diversionary tactic' is the push for the use of ethanol. While it replaces a non-environmentally friendly additive (methyl tertiary butyl ether) it does not, in reality, reduce the use of or the dependency on fossil fuels. Most studies show that it takes more energy to produce and deliver ethanol than the energy the ethanol can actually produce - which equates to a net loss of energy. The energy used to produce, distill and transport ethanol is derived from fossil fuels.[/font]

Yeah I'll agree. What the US has done to their own car market just seems dumb. They don't make them like they use to. Older american cars were solid. Not too much to see in the car commercials other than some kind of brainwashing. Its to like there is quality behind the fancy commercials.
What the hell is with all the weird sketchy ads in the forum?