Ambrotose

Sun, 25 Jan 2004 17:29:00 -0500 in article <[email hidden]>

Ben said:

Hi everyone

What would like to know what this news group think about the use of ambrotose. It suppose to help
your body's immune system. My twin brother uses this product and he says it is highly recommend for
people who are on heart medication. For heart medication is hard on your immune system. I am on
amiodarone and coumadin and atacand,norvasc. Is it advisable to use this product, or would I just
waste my money

It's probably waste of money. There are no peer-reviewed research articles about ambrotose.

--
Matti Narkia

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 13:26:42 +0200, Matti Narkia <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

It's probably waste of money. There are no peer-reviewed research articles about ambrotose.

There's no peer reviewed research on the 2PDiet yet we see people successfully lose/maintain weight
on it daily.

You live in an artificial world of over reliance on research; tell me, if yo stick your hand in
fire, will you need research to prove to you that you got burned?

antwrp.gsfc.nasa.govap991014.htmlOpen ↗ Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.

Wed, 28 Jan 2004 08:19:01 -0500 in article
<[email hidden]> Mu_n Over Eugenia

Quoted message said:

Matti Narkia said:

It's probably waste of money. There are no peer-reviewed research articles about ambrotose.

There's no peer reviewed research on the 2PDiet

That's a good enough reason to avoid 2PDiet, IMHO. Why should people be guinea pigs for a totally
untested procedure?

Quoted message said:

yet we see people successfully lose/maintain weight on it daily.

We? :-).

Quoted message said:

You live in an artificial world of over reliance on research; tell me, if yo stick your hand in
fire, will you need research to prove to you that you got burned?

You seem to live in a dangerous fantasy world of quackery, and even prefer it to scientifically
tested medical procedures. What does that tell about you?

To answer your idiotic question: you need science to diagnose the severity of the burn and to
prescribe proper treatment. Your quack treatments would probably be of no help and could make the
situation worse.

--
Matti Narkia

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 16:01:22 +0200, Matti Narkia <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There's no peer reviewed research on the 2PDiet

That's a good enough reason to avoid 2PDiet, IMHO. Why should people be guinea pigs for a totally
untested procedure?

Where were you when Atkins and Ornish and all the other commercial diets came out and were not under
any research and were "totally untested"?

Your obsession with the written word and your blindness to reality make your hatred for the 2PDiet
all the more ridiculous.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

yet we see people successfully lose/maintain weight on it daily.

We? :-).

We.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You live in an artificial world of over reliance on research; tell me, if yo stick your hand in
fire, will you need research to prove to you that you got burned?

You seem to live in a dangerous fantasy world of quackery, and even prefer it to scientifically
tested medical procedures. What does that tell about you?

It says that I don't need a research citation to tell me when to take a dump.

Quoted message said:

To answer your idiotic question: you need science to diagnose the severity of the burn and to
prescribe proper treatment. Your quack treatments would probably be of no help and could make the
situation worse.

My question, which you have misphrased to make some kind of inane point, was "do you need a citation
to tell you that the fire you just put your hand in just burnt you'?

Well, do you, Matti?

antwrp.gsfc.nasa.govap991014.htmlOpen ↗ Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.

Wed, 28 Jan 2004 09:09:53 -0500 in article
<[email hidden]> Mu_n Over Eugenia

Quoted message said:

Matti Narkia said:

Quoted message said:

There's no peer reviewed research on the 2PDiet

That's a good enough reason to avoid 2PDiet, IMHO. Why should people be guinea pigs for a totally
untested procedure?

Where were you when Atkins and Ornish and all the other commercial diets came out and were not
under any research and were "totally untested"?

FYI: Dr Atkins first published his diet plan in 1972. At that time there were already several
studies about low-carbohydrate diets. Below references to some of these studies:

Hulley SB, Wilson WS, Burrows MI, Nichaman MZ. Lipid and lipoprotein responses of
hypertriglyceridaemic outpatients to a low-carbohydrate modification of the A.H.A. fat-controlled
diet. Lancet. 1972 Sep 16; 2(7777): 551-5.

Jackson RA, Advani U, Perry G, Rogers J, Peters N, Pilkington TR. Dietary diabetes: the influence of
a low-carbohydrate diet on peripheral glucose utilization. Isr J Med Sci. 1972 Jun; 8(6): 916.

Yudkin J. The low-carbohydrate diet in the treatment of obesity. Postgrad Med. 1972 May;
51(5): 151-4.

Kasper H, Plock E. [Body weight in high-fat low-carbohydrate diet] Med Klin. 1971 Mar 19; 66(12):
440-5. German.

Kew MC. Treatment of obesity in the Bantu: value of a low-carbohydrate diet with and without an
appetite suppressant. S Afr Med J. 1970 Sep 5; 44(35): 1006-7.

Stock AL, Yudkin J. Nutrient intake of subjects on low carbohydrate diet used in treatment of
obesity. Am J Clin Nutr. 1970 Jul; 23(7): 948-52.

Ponikowska I. [Comparative studies on the effect of high carbohydrate diet and low carbohydrate diet
in diabetes] Pol Tyg Lek. 1969 Oct 3; 24(44): 1697-700. Polish.

Nicholson AL, Yudkin J. The nutritional value of low-carbohydrate diet used in the treatment of
obesity. Proc Nutr Soc. 1969 Mar; 28(1): 13A.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

yet we see people successfully lose/maintain weight on it daily.

We? :-).

We.

LOL. As you probably don't know what others "see", you obviously are talking about yourself using
plural form. :-). So, just for the sake of curiosity, could you tell us exactly what _you_ see, how
often and whom _you_ "see", how do _you_ verify what _you _"see", and why should we believe anything
_you_ say?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You live in an artificial world of over reliance on research; tell me, if yo stick your hand in
fire, will you need research to prove to you that you got burned?

You seem to live in a dangerous fantasy world of quackery, and even prefer it to scientifically
tested medical procedures. What does that tell about you?

It says that I don't need a research citation to tell me when to take a dump.

No. It says that you don't have a clue about science, especially about medial and
nutritional science.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

To answer your idiotic question: you need science to diagnose the severity of the burn and to
prescribe proper treatment. Your quack treatments would probably be of no help and could make the
situation worse.

My question, which you have misphrased to make some kind of inane point, was "do you need a
citation to tell you that the fire you just put your hand in just burnt you'?

You are not making sense here. You don't need science to notice obvious visual signs of a condition
(or do you need science to see if someone is fat?), but you need science to exactly diagnose the
condition and to determine the best treatment. 2PD diet is not a visual sign of a condition, it is
_quack_ _treatment_ for a condition (obesity).

--
Matti Narkia

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 12:03:19 -0500, Matti Narkia wrote
(in message <[email hidden]>😉:

Quoted message said:

Wed, 28 Jan 2004 09:09:53 -0500 in article <[email hidden]> Mu_n Over

Eugenia said:

Matti Narkia said:

> There's no peer reviewed research on the 2PDiet

That's a good enough reason to avoid 2PDiet, IMHO. Why should people be guinea pigs for a
totally untested procedure?

Where were you when Atkins and Ornish and all the other commercial diets came out and were not
under any research and were "totally untested"?

FYI: Dr Atkins first published his diet plan in 1972. At that time there were already several
studies about low-carbohydrate diets. Below references to some of these studies:

Hulley SB, Wilson WS, Burrows MI, Nichaman MZ. Lipid and lipoprotein responses of
hypertriglyceridaemic outpatients to a low-carbohydrate modification of the A.H.A. fat-controlled
diet. Lancet. 1972 Sep 16; 2(7777): 551-5.

Jackson RA, Advani U, Perry G, Rogers J, Peters N, Pilkington TR. Dietary diabetes: the influence
of a low-carbohydrate diet on peripheral glucose utilization. Isr J Med Sci. 1972 Jun; 8(6): 916.

Yudkin J. The low-carbohydrate diet in the treatment of obesity. Postgrad Med. 1972 May;
51(5): 151-4.

Kasper H, Plock E. [Body weight in high-fat low-carbohydrate diet] Med Klin. 1971 Mar 19; 66(12):
440-5. German.

Kew MC. Treatment of obesity in the Bantu: value of a low-carbohydrate diet with and without an
appetite suppressant. S Afr Med J. 1970 Sep 5; 44(35): 1006-7.

Stock AL, Yudkin J. Nutrient intake of subjects on low carbohydrate diet used in treatment of
obesity. Am J Clin Nutr. 1970 Jul; 23(7): 948-52.

Ponikowska I. [Comparative studies on the effect of high carbohydrate diet and low carbohydrate
diet in diabetes] Pol Tyg Lek. 1969 Oct 3; 24(44): 1697-700. Polish.

Nicholson AL, Yudkin J. The nutritional value of low-carbohydrate diet used in the treatment of
obesity. Proc Nutr Soc. 1969 Mar; 28(1): 13A.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> yet we see people successfully lose/maintain weight on it daily.
>
We? :-).

We.

LOL. As you probably don't know what others "see", you obviously are talking about yourself using
plural form. :-). So, just for the sake of curiosity, could you tell us exactly what _you_ see,
how often and whom _you_ "see", how do _you_ verify what _you _"see", and why should we believe
anything _you_ say?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> You live in an artificial world of over reliance on research; tell me, if yo stick your hand in
> fire, will you need research to prove to you that you got burned?
>
You seem to live in a dangerous fantasy world of quackery, and even prefer it to scientifically
tested medical procedures. What does that tell about you?

It says that I don't need a research citation to tell me when to take a dump.

No. It says that you don't have a clue about science, especially about medial and nutritional
science.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

To answer your idiotic question: you need science to diagnose the severity of the burn and to
prescribe proper treatment. Your quack treatments would probably be of no help and could make
the situation worse.

My question, which you have misphrased to make some kind of inane point, was "do you need a
citation to tell you that the fire you just put your hand in just burnt you'?

You are not making sense here. You don't need science to notice obvious visual signs of a
condition (or do you need science to see if someone is fat?), but you need science to exactly
diagnose the condition and to determine the best treatment. 2PD diet is not a visual sign of a
condition, it is _quack_ _treatment_ for a condition (obesity).

--
Matti Narkia

Matti, I think *you* are developing the Gift of Truth Discernment :-)

Nice work... as usual. Factual and Specific.

Take three Humble Pills and call me in the morning,
--
Steve, Humilitas Doctorus, Fellow of the American Academy of Humility

Weeding the Lord's Vineyards Since 2003

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 19:03:19 +0200, Matti Narkia <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's a good enough reason to avoid 2PDiet, IMHO. Why should people be guinea pigs for a totally
untested procedure?

Where were you when Atkins and Ornish and all the other commercial diets came out and were not
under any research and were "totally untested"?

Matti Narkia said:

FYI: Dr Atkins first published his diet plan in 1972. At that time there were already several
studies about low-carbohydrate diets. Below references to some of these studies:

None of which specifically lists Atkins.

Quoted message said:

Hulley SB, Wilson WS, Burrows MI, Nichaman MZ.

<snipped>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>yet we see people successfully lose/maintain weight on it daily.
>
We? :-).

We.

LOL. As you probably don't know what others "see", you obviously are talking about yourself using
plural form. :-).

Chung, Hall and I for starters makes "We".

Quoted message said:

So, just for the sake of curiosity, could you tell us exactly what _you_ see,

Weight loss, maintenance, very low recidivism rates...

Quoted message said:

how often and whom _you_ "see",

Daily.

Quoted message said:

how do _you_ verify what _you _"see",

Scales.

Quoted message said:

and why should we believe anything _you_ say?

Because I don't use references in light of truthful observation.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It says that I don't need a research citation to tell me when to take a dump.

No. It says that you don't have a clue about science, especially about medial and
nutritional science.

lol

ok

Is that the medial collateral ligamental science you are speaking?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My question, which you have misphrased to make some kind of inane point, was "do you need a
citation to tell you that the fire you just put your hand in just burnt you'?

You are not making sense here. You don't need science to notice obvious visual signs of a condition
(or do you need science to see if someone is fat?), but you need science to exactly diagnose the
condition and to determine the best treatment.

If your obese, get on the 2PDiet. So much for science. As far as medical diagnosis and treatment,
neither you nor I are so trained so your point is mu_te.

Quoted message said:

2PD diet is not a visual sign of a condition, it is _quack_ _treatment_ for a condition (obesity).

Why do you hate the 2PDiet so and why do you obsess about its success?

antwrp.gsfc.nasa.govap991014.htmlOpen ↗ Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.

Wed, 28 Jan 2004 12:28:26 -0500 in article
<[email hidden]> Mu_n Over Eugenia

Quoted message said:

Matti Narkia said:

FYI: Dr Atkins first published his diet plan in 1972. At that time there were already several
studies about low-carbohydrate diets. Below references to some of these studies:

None of which specifically lists Atkins.

I don't believe this. Where is your brain? How could these studies, which _predate_ Atkins'
publication of his diet, mention anything about Atkins? You implied in your earlier post that
Atkins' diet was not based on science. My references prove otherwise. There were a number of low-
carbodydrate studies on which Atkins could base his diet.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>yet we see people successfully lose/maintain weight on it daily.
>>
>We? :-).

We.

LOL. As you probably don't know what others "see", you obviously are talking about yourself using
plural form. :-).

Chung, Hall and I for starters makes "We".

Ah, but how do you know what Chung and Hall "see", and how do you verify what they "see", daily?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So, just for the sake of curiosity, could you tell us exactly what _you_ see,

Weight loss, maintenance, very low recidivism rates...

Quoted message said:

how often and whom _you_ "see",

Daily.

Quoted message said:

how do _you_ verify what _you _"see",

Scales.

So do you weigh these people? If you do in what capacity you do that? What exactly is your role in
their weight loss program? And why should we believe anything you say? Hey, you cannot even prove
who you are for god's sake!;-).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and why should we believe anything _you_ say?

Because I don't use references in light of truthful observation.

In other words you have no proof whatsoever for anything you have said.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It says that I don't need a research citation to tell me when to take a dump.

No. It says that you don't have a clue about science, especially about medial and nutritional
science.

lol

IMHO, it's rather sad, but it's nice to see that you remain in good spirit.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My question, which you have misphrased to make some kind of inane point, was "do you need a
citation to tell you that the fire you just put your hand in just burnt you'?

You are not making sense here. You don't need science to notice obvious visual signs of a
condition (or do you need science to see if someone is fat?), but you need science to exactly
diagnose the condition and to determine the best treatment.

If your obese, get on the 2PDiet.

I wouldn't. There are better alternatives.

Quoted message said:

So much for science.

Exactly. So much for science. There isn't any of it in 2PD diet.

--
Matti Narkia

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 20:16:07 +0200, Matti Narkia <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

None of which specifically lists Atkins.

Quoted message said:

How could these studies, which _predate_ Atkins' publication of his diet, mention anything
about Atkins?

They don't. You listed the ones that you claimed did. Grow up.

Quoted message said:

You implied in your earlier post that Atkins' diet was not based on science.

I implied nothing of the sort.

Quoted message said:

My references prove otherwise. There were a number of low-carbodydrate studies on which Atkins
could base his diet.

Exactly and I will not repeat myself again. I asked for the science that showed ATKINS DIET to be
effective. You keep claiming that the 2PDiet has no science behind it. I agree. Neither did ATKINS
specific DIET which is not just "a low carb diet", have any science behind it specifically regarding
the ATKINS DIET.

Quoted message said:

Ah, but how do you know what Chung and Hall "see", and how do you verify what they "see", daily?

Grow up. We live in the same town.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Scales.

Quoted message said:

So do you weigh these people?

Yes.

Quoted message said:

If you do in what capacity you do that?

Strength trainer.

Quoted message said:

What exactly is your role in their weight loss program?

To put them on the 2PDiet if their obesity is an issue to their health or sports success.

Quoted message said:

And why should we believe anything you say? Hey, you cannot even prove who you are for god's
sake!;-).

Because I don't use references in light of truthful, documented observations.

Quoted message said:

In other words you have no proof whatsoever for anything you have said.

None that I care to give you.

I have asked you several times what your qualifications, education, expertise are and you have yet
to answer me. My posts are all over Google so have at them.

So, what is your real name, qualifications (outside of being a Medline Search Freak), etc.

If you have no answers again, this conversation is over.

antwrp.gsfc.nasa.govap991014.htmlOpen ↗ Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 14:14:01 -0500, Mu_n Over Eugenia wrote
(in message <[email hidden]>😉:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

You keep claiming that the 2PDiet has no science behind it. I agree.

Thank you for that one... expect to see it again :-)

It's Hard to be Humble when you can Discern the Truth,
--
Steve, Humilitas Doctorus, Fellow of the American Academy of Humility

Weeding the Lord's Vineyards Since 2003

Wed, 28 Jan 2004 14:14:01 -0500 in article
<[email hidden]> Mu_n Over Eugenia

Quoted message said:

Matti Narkia said:

Quoted message said:

None of which specifically lists Atkins.

Quoted message said:

How could these studies, which _predate_ Atkins' publication of his diet, mention anything
about Atkins?

They don't. You listed the ones that you claimed did. Grow up.

Do you have a comprehension problem or are you deliberately lying? As anyone can check I wrote:

"Dr Atkins first published his diet plan in 1972. At that time there were already several
studies about low-carbohydrate diets. Below references to some of these studies: "

Now where is the claim that these referenced studies would mention Atkins' diet or would be about
Atkin's version of low-carbohydrate diet? That would indeed have been a little difficult unless the
researchers were clairvoyants, because Atkins hadn't come out his diet when these studies were
published.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You implied in your earlier post that Atkins' diet was not based on science.

I implied nothing of the sort.

You mentioned, among other things, that Atkins' and some other diets came out they were not under
any research and were "totally untested"", in other words they in your opinion hardly could have
been based on science. However, the references I listed suggest that not only had low-carbohydrate
diets been "under research" for many years before Atkin's published his diet, but there also had
been some preliminary testing of these diets.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My references prove otherwise. There were a number of low-carbodydrate studies on which Atkins
could base his diet.

Exactly and I will not repeat myself again. I asked for the science that showed ATKINS DIET to be
effective. You keep claiming that the 2PDiet has no science behind it. I agree. Neither did ATKINS
specific DIET which is not just "a low carb diet", have any science behind it specifically
regarding the ATKINS DIET.

Atkins' diet is just a version of low-carbohydrate diet, and there are variations even in the
application of Atkins' diet. Later there have been studies also specifically about the Atkins'
version of low-carbohydrate. I see no reason to get fixated onto Atkin's version when we talk about
low carbohydrate diets. But when designing his version of low-carbohydrate diet, Atkins could
benefit from the existing research about these diets.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Ah, but how do you know what Chung and Hall "see", and how do you verify what they "see", daily?

Grow up. We live in the same town.

Perhaps you even live in the same house and wear same shoes? ;-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Scales.

Quoted message said:

So do you weigh these people?

Yes.

Quoted message said:

If you do in what capacity you do that?

Strength trainer.

Quoted message said:

What exactly is your role in their weight loss program?

To put them on the 2PDiet if their obesity is an issue to their health or sports success.

And if they happen to lose weight, you attribute weight loss to 2PD and not to excercise? Do you
realize that, if you want prove anything at all about 2PD, you should have a matching control group
with the same level of exercise, but with a different diet.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And why should we believe anything you say? Hey, you cannot even prove who you are for god's
sake!;-).

Because I don't use references in light of truthful, documented observations.

Quoted message said:

In other words you have no proof whatsoever for anything you have said.

None that I care to give you.

How nice and convincing.

Quoted message said:

I have asked you several times what your qualifications, education, expertise are and you have yet
to answer me. My posts are all over Google so have at them.

Hey, you anonymous troll, you don't give even your name. For whatever I claim I provide documented
evidence, usually in the form of peer-reviewed studies, available to everyone. These have nothing to
do with my qualifications, education, expertise etc... These personal details would add absolutely
nothing to the quality of evidence and would provide no relevant information for the subjects we
_should_ discuss in this ng. You are requesting strictly off-topic personal details while cowardly
hiding _your_ real identity.

Quoted message said:

So, what is your real name, qualifications (outside of being a Medline Search Freak), etc.

If you have no answers again, this conversation is over.

I have no intention to continue reading you messages on regular basis, so I just hope you are man
enough to stick to your word. :-)

--
Matti Narkia

On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 00:50:12 +0200, Matti Narkia <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So, what is your real name, qualifications (outside of being a Medline Search Freak), etc.

If you have no answers again, this conversation is over.

I have no intention to continue reading you messages on regular basis, so I just hope you are man
enough to stick to your word. :-)

<plonk>

antwrp.gsfc.nasa.govap991014.htmlOpen ↗ Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.