AMA Bashes Quackpots...

Rubbish! This is a commentary published in a journal - no more and no
less. As the journal itself says:

"All articles published, including editorials, letters, and book
reviews, represent the opinions of the authors and do not reflect the
policy of the American Medical Association, the Editorial Board, or
the institution with which the author is affiliated, unless this is
clearly specified."

http://archinte.ama-assn.org/about_current.dtl

The AMA position is at the end of this article:

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/article/2036-2523.html

Susan

[email hidden] (Tim Bolen) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

AMA Bashes Quackpots...

Opinion by Consumer Advocate Tim Bolen

November 8th, 2003

I'm suggesting to you that you spend $12 at the American Medical
Association (AMA) website to read, and download, an OFFICIAL AMA
COMMENTARY, and an absolutely SHOCKING article BASHING the
quackbusters. In fact, the word "bashing" is an UNDERSTATEMENT. The
AMA couldn't have made it's OFFICIAL position on the quackbuster's
attack on AltMed any clearer.

The Quackbusters would like to give us the impression that they
represent American mainstream medical thinking, when in fact they do
not...

If anyone, in their publications, and commentaries, could claim to
represent that mainstream medical viewpoint in the United States, it
would certainly have to be the American Medical Association (AMA).

It looks to me that the AMA doesn't like the "quackbuster's" tactics
one bit, and has clearly said so in published commentary. You can go
read their five page article (if you pay the $12) titled "Battling
Quackery - Attitudes About Micronutrient Supplementation in American
Academic Medicine," printed in the Archives of Internal Medicine,
yourself, first, but here is the conclusion of their commentary.
Words you'll never read on quackwatch.com...

"There are only three important questions when evaluating a treatment.
Does it work? What are the adverse effects? How much does it cost?
Ideally, the treatment or the guild to which the proponents of the
treatment belong should be irrelevant to the fundamental questions of
efficacy, toxicity, and cost."

The article's authors, James Goodwin MD, and Michael Tangum MD,
compared the assault on AltMed to the attack by the Catholic Church
against Galileo, because Galileo had the temerity to take his
findings, and his message, to the masses by writing his work in
Italian instead of the Latin. Latin was the language of the official
learned. AltMed, worldwide, has bypassed the process of arguing
merits in the status quo, self-styled "scientific" elite community,
and has taken it's message to the people.

So, if this is the AMA's position on the issue of "AltMed" then where
does that put the "quackbusters," or as I call them, the "quackpots?"

The dictionary defines "crackpot" as "a person who is eccentric,
impractical, unrealistic, or insane..." To me, "quackbusters" fit that
definition when they describe the world's leading-edge health
professionals as "quacks," and leading-edge modalities as "quackery."

And, the AMA agrees...

Stay tuned...

Tim Bolen - Consumer Advocate

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: AMA Bashes Quackpots...
From: [email hidden] (Susan)
Date: 11/8/2003 6:23 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Rubbish! This is a commentary published in a journal - no more and no
less. As the journal itself says:

"All articles published, including editorials, letters, and book
reviews, represent the opinions of the authors and do not reflect the
policy of the American Medical Association, the Editorial Board, or
the institution with which the author is affiliated, unless this is
clearly specified."

http://archinte.ama-assn.org/about_current.dtl

The AMA position is at the end of this article:

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/article/2036-2523.html

Susan

They should update their website.

NOTE: This report represents the medical/scientific literature on this subject
as of June 1997.

The terms "alternative medicine," "complementary medicine," or "unconventional
medicine" refer to diagnostic methods, treatments and therapies that appear not
to conform to standard medical practice, or are not generally taught at
accredited medical schools.

http://www.pitt.edu/~cbw/licen.html

Schools, Training and Licensure: Internet Resources: Alternative Medicine
Accredited Colleges in Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine , Doc Misha's Chicken
Soup Chinese Medicine
The Alternative Medicine College of Canada (AMCC) "offers accredited
correspondence courses in naturopathy, homeopathy, and holistic medicine"
American College of Nurse-Midwives (ACNM)
American Association of Naturopathic Physicians : Education and Licensing
American Reflexology Certification Board: "protect the public and promote the
advancement of the field through the recognition of competent reflexologists
who practice on a professional basis and chose to be recognized as meeting
basic national standards
Art Therapy Credentials Board: "an independent organization, grants
postgraduate registration (ATR) after reviewing documentation of completion of
graduate education and postgraduate supervised experience. The Registered Art
Therapist who successfully completes the written examinationadministered by the
ATCB is qualified as Board Certified (ATR-BC), a credential requiring
maintenance through continuing education credits"
Australasian College of Herbal Studies
Australasian College of Natural Therapies Sydney, Australia
Bastyr University founded in 1978 to train naturopathic physicians. Degress in
acupuncture, oriental medicine and nutrition.
The Biofeedback Certification Institute of America (BCIA): "to establish and
versee standards for practitioners who use biofeedback and to certify those who
meet these standards
California Institute of the Healing Arts and Sciences, Sacromento, California
Canadian College of Naturopathic Medicine, Toronto, Ontario: Canada's only four
year program in naturopathic medicine
Certification Board for Music Therapists
Chiropractic in the United States: Training, Practice, and Research, CHIROWEB
College of Maharishi Vedic Medicine: Fairfield, Iowa, a Maharishi University of
Management.
Council for Naturopathic Medical Education
Courses on Complementary Medicine and Alternative Therapies (CAM) Taught At
Conventional U.S. Medical Schools
Farrington Homeopathic School Suite 303, 20 Cedar Blvd. Pittsburgh, PA 15228
Phone: 1-800-430-9328
Find a School: database allowing you to search by CAM discipline or by an
alphabetic index from NaturalHealers.
First National University of Naturopathy, Ft. Oglethorpe, Georgia and
Washington, DC
Florida Vedic College Cold Springs, Florida
Global Health Calendar: meetings, events and courses, HealthWorld Online
The International Board for Regression Therapy (IBRT): "independent examining
and certifying board for past life therapists, researchers, and training
programs"
The International College of Herbal Medicine "provides a two-year active
program of continuing professional development and postgraduate study for
Medical Herbalists and Health Professionals who want to receive advanced and
clinically oriented training from mentors who are internationally recognized
experts in Herbal Medicine. The Course is delivered in Monthly Units through
the on line CAMPUS. The CAMPUS contains Unit Resource Materials, Library,
Discussion Group, interactive correspondence with our Mentors, and more."
International Health Electives, Child Family Health International: includes an
elective in Integrated Medicine, India which is for all levels of allopathic,
osteopathic, naturopathic medical students, public health students, allied
health and pre-med students
International Union for the Natural Health, Complementary & Alternative
Medicine Professions (IUHN): mission includes: "promoting and protecting the
interests of the CAM Professions and all union members in the legislative,
regulatory, and political arenas and protecting the professional practice
interests and legal rights of CAM practitioners and advancing the Profession's
standards of practice, education and research"
National Board for Certified Clinical Hyponotherapists (NBCCH): "developed a
certification program based upon the education and experience of mental health,
counseling and healthcare practitioners in hypnotherapy
National Board of Chiropractic Examiners (NBCE)
National Certification Board for Therapeutic Massage and Bodywork (NCBTMB)
National Certification Commission for Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine
(NCCAOM)
National College of Naturopathic Medicine: oldest accredited school of natural
medicine in North America, Portland, Oregon
NaturalHealers: directory/listing of educational programs and schools for
individuals pursuing careers in natural healing
New Mexico Academy of Healing Arts: certification programs in Massage,
Ortho-Bionomy®,Somatic Polarity® and Cranial-Sacral
Pacific College of Oriental Medicine: largest college of acupuncture and
Oriental medicine in the United States, with campuses in San Diego and New
York.
Schools and Colleges of Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine, National Acupuncture
and Oriental Medicine Alliance
The Shiatsu School of Canada
Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine & Health Sciences: Tempe and
Scottsdale Arizona
Southwest School of Botanical Medicine Home Page: Albuquerque, New Mexico:
links to herb resources, medicinal plant images and information on this school.
Universal College of Reflexology, Edmonton, Alberta, CANADA
University of Arizona Program in Integrative Medicine: "train physicians to be
leaders in fostering the redesign of medical education to incorporate the
philosophy of Integrative Medicine.
University of Bridgeport College of Naturopathic Medicine, Bridgeport,
Connecticut
University of Maryland, School of Medicine, Program in Complementary Medicine
University of Virginia, The Center for the Study of Complementary and
Alternative Therapies (CSCAT)

Jan

(Tim Bolen) said:

"There are only three important questions when evaluating a treatment.
Does it work? What are the adverse effects? How much does it cost?
Ideally, the treatment or the guild to which the proponents of the
treatment belong should be irrelevant to the fundamental questions of
efficacy, toxicity, and cost."

Which is all the "debunkers" and "quackpots" have ever asked for.

Does it work?

Is it safe?

What is the cost (including costs other than just money, of course)?

So, what's your problem, Tim? Perhaps we could discuss this when I
drop in to your mailbox-sized office next January. Given the size of
most post boxes, will we have to meet in the street? And how are the
swallows in San Juan Capistrano? Has your committee got them to come
back?

--
Peter Bowditch
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
The Green Light http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight
and The New Improved Quintessence of the Loon with added Vitamins and C-Q10 http://www.ratbags.com/loon
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

(Jan) said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: AMA Bashes Quackpots...
From: [email hidden] (Susan)
Date: 11/8/2003 6:23 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Rubbish! This is a commentary published in a journal - no more and no
less. As the journal itself says:

"All articles published, including editorials, letters, and book
reviews, represent the opinions of the authors and do not reflect the
policy of the American Medical Association, the Editorial Board, or
the institution with which the author is affiliated, unless this is
clearly specified."

http://archinte.ama-assn.org/about_current.dtl

The AMA position is at the end of this article:

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/article/2036-2523.html

Susan

They should update their website.

Why? Have their policies changed?

Quoted message said:

NOTE: This report represents the medical/scientific literature on this subject
as of June 1997.

The terms "alternative medicine," "complementary medicine," or "unconventional
medicine" refer to diagnostic methods, treatments and therapies that appear not
to conform to standard medical practice, or are not generally taught at
accredited medical schools.

And the problem with this is what?

<snip long list advertising quackery schools>

By the way, Jan, you really have to cut Susan some slack. She is not
your average debunker, and is, in fact, a student of herbs and such.
In real life she and I live in the same time zone so we are forced to
agree about the time and date. It is quite possible that this is all
we agree about, as we could live far enough apart to disagree about
the weather.

Oh, and it looks like we agree about Tim Bolen. That's two things now.

--
Peter Bowditch
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
The Green Light http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight
and The New Improved Quintessence of the Loon with added Vitamins and C-Q10 http://www.ratbags.com/loon
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

Quoted message said:

From: Peter Bowditch [email hidden]
Date: 11/8/2003 7:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

<snip>

Quoted message said:

So, what's your problem, Tim? Perhaps we could discuss this when I
drop in to your mailbox-sized office next January. Given the size of
most post boxes, will we have to meet in the street?

Who does this sounds like??

Jan

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: AMA Bashes Quackpots...
From: Peter Bowditch [email hidden]
Date: 11/8/2003 8:13 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

(Jan) said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: AMA Bashes Quackpots...
From: [email hidden] (Susan)
Date: 11/8/2003 6:23 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Rubbish! This is a commentary published in a journal - no more and no
less. As the journal itself says:

"All articles published, including editorials, letters, and book
reviews, represent the opinions of the authors and do not reflect the
policy of the American Medical Association, the Editorial Board, or
the institution with which the author is affiliated, unless this is
clearly specified."

http://archinte.ama-assn.org/about_current.dtl

The AMA position is at the end of this article:

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/article/2036-2523.html

Susan

They should update their website.

Why? Have their policies changed?

Usual one updates because their information is outdated. Surprised you didn''t
know that.

It is 2003, this website is from 1997.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

NOTE: This report represents the medical/scientific literature on this

subject

Quoted message said:

as of June 1997.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The terms "alternative medicine," "complementary medicine," or

"unconventional

Quoted message said:

medicine" refer to diagnostic methods, treatments and therapies that appear

not

Quoted message said:

to conform to standard medical practice, or are not generally taught at
accredited medical schools.

Quoted message said:

And the problem with this is what?

It isn't updated.

Quoted message said:

<snip long list advertising quackery schools>

Umm, you might wish to read this time, look for the words accredited and
certified.

That would make the websited outdated.

Your meaning of quackery is simply wrong.

Quoted message said:

By the way, Jan, you really have to cut Susan some slack

I didn't say a word about Susan.

Quoted message said:

She is not
your average debunker, and is, in fact, a student of herbs and such.

Yes, I am aware of that.

Quoted message said:

In real life she and I live in the same time zone so we are forced to
agree about the time and date. It is quite possible that this is all
we agree about, as we could live far enough apart to disagree about
the weather.

Quoted message said:

Oh, and it looks like we agree about Tim Bolen. That's two things now.

Since you dislike him so much, how come you sound so much like him??

We already know you are a repeated liar, and you haven't shown us how easy it
is to apologise when making a mistake.

Your credibility is ZERO.

Your word means nothing.

Jan

(Jan) said:

We already know you are a repeated liar, and you haven't shown us how easy it
is to apologise when making a mistake.

Your credibility is ZERO.

Your word means nothing.

Jan

This should be framed and hung.

Aloha,

Rich

------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------

The best defense to logic is ignorance.

"Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Your credibility is ZERO.

Your word means nothing.

Jan

$ KaChing $13

(Jan) said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They should update their website.

Why? Have their policies changed?

Usual one updates because their information is outdated. Surprised you didn''t
know that.

It is 2003, this website is from 1997.

Here it is again, slowly. If the AMA's policy has not changed, then
there is no need to update anything. I realise that your hatred for
the AMA and all things medical can make you see things that are not
there, but in this case the facts are simple.

Just for the record, here are the eminently suitable words of the
AMA's policy. There is nothing here that any reasonable person could
object to, unless, for example, they feel that patients should not be
informed or that medical schools should teach things which have not
been investigated.

The following statements, recommended by the Council on Scientific
Affairs, were adopted as AMA Policy at the 1997 AMA Annual Meeting.

1. There is little evidence to confirm the safety or efficacy of most
alternative therapies. Much of the information currently known about
these therapies makes it clear that many have not been shown to be
efficacious. Well-designed, stringently controlled research should be
done to evaluate the efficacy of alternative therapies.

2. Physicians should routinely inquire about the use of alternative or
unconventional therapy by their patients, and educate themselves and
their patients about the state of scientific knowledge with regard to
alternative therapy that may be used or contemplated.

3. Patients who choose alternative therapies should be educated as to
the hazards that might result from postponing or stopping conventional
medical treatment.

4. Courses offered by medical schools on alternative medicine should
present the scientific view of unconventional theories, treatments,
and practice as well as the potential therapeutic utility, safety, and
efficacy of these modalities.

--
Peter Bowditch
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
The Green Light http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight
and The New Improved Quintessence of the Loon with added Vitamins and C-Q10 http://www.ratbags.com/loon
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

"Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From: Peter Bowditch [email hidden]
Date: 11/8/2003 7:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

<snip>

Quoted message said:

So, what's your problem, Tim? Perhaps we could discuss this when I
drop in to your mailbox-sized office next January. Given the size of
most post boxes, will we have to meet in the street?

Who does this sounds like??

Uh....

YOU!

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: AMA Bashes Quackpots...
From: Peter Bowditch [email hidden]
Date: 11/8/2003 11:49 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

(Jan) said:

Quoted message said:

>They should update their website.

Why? Have their policies changed?

Usual one updates because their information is outdated. Surprised you

didn''t

Quoted message said:

know that.

It is 2003, this website is from 1997.

Here it is again, slowly

They should update their website.

NOTE: This report represents the medical/scientific literature on this subject
as of June 1997.

The terms "alternative medicine," "complementary medicine," or "unconventional
medicine" refer to diagnostic methods, treatments and therapies that appear not
to conform to standard medical practice, or are not generally taught at
accredited medical schools.

http://www.pitt.edu/~cbw/licen.html

Schools, Training and Licensure: Internet Resources: Alternative Medicine
Accredited Colleges in Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine , Doc Misha's Chicken
Soup Chinese Medicine
The Alternative Medicine College of Canada (AMCC) "offers accredited
correspondence courses in naturopathy, homeopathy, and holistic medicine"
American College of Nurse-Midwives (ACNM)
American Association of Naturopathic Physicians : Education and Licensing
American Reflexology Certification Board: "protect the public and promote the
advancement of the field through the recognition of competent reflexologists
who practice on a professional basis and chose to be recognized as meeting
basic national standards
Art Therapy Credentials Board: "an independent organization, grants
postgraduate registration (ATR) after reviewing documentation of completion of
graduate education and postgraduate supervised experience. The Registered Art
Therapist who successfully completes the written examinationadministered by the
ATCB is qualified as Board Certified (ATR-BC), a credential requiring
maintenance through continuing education credits"
Australasian College of Herbal Studies
Australasian College of Natural Therapies Sydney, Australia
Bastyr University founded in 1978 to train naturopathic physicians. Degress in
acupuncture, oriental medicine and nutrition.
The Biofeedback Certification Institute of America (BCIA): "to establish and
versee standards for practitioners who use biofeedback and to certify those who
meet these standards
California Institute of the Healing Arts and Sciences, Sacromento, California
Canadian College of Naturopathic Medicine, Toronto, Ontario: Canada's only four
year program in naturopathic medicine
Certification Board for Music Therapists
Chiropractic in the United States: Training, Practice, and Research, CHIROWEB
College of Maharishi Vedic Medicine: Fairfield, Iowa, a Maharishi University of
Management.
Council for Naturopathic Medical Education
Courses on Complementary Medicine and Alternative Therapies (CAM) Taught At
Conventional U.S. Medical Schools
Farrington Homeopathic School Suite 303, 20 Cedar Blvd. Pittsburgh, PA 15228
Phone: 1-800-430-9328
Find a School: database allowing you to search by CAM discipline or by an
alphabetic index from NaturalHealers.
First National University of Naturopathy, Ft. Oglethorpe, Georgia and
Washington, DC
Florida Vedic College Cold Springs, Florida
Global Health Calendar: meetings, events and courses, HealthWorld Online
The International Board for Regression Therapy (IBRT): "independent examining
and certifying board for past life therapists, researchers, and training
programs"
The International College of Herbal Medicine "provides a two-year active
program of continuing professional development and postgraduate study for
Medical Herbalists and Health Professionals who want to receive advanced and
clinically oriented training from mentors who are internationally recognized
experts in Herbal Medicine. The Course is delivered in Monthly Units through
the on line CAMPUS. The CAMPUS contains Unit Resource Materials, Library,
Discussion Group, interactive correspondence with our Mentors, and more."
International Health Electives, Child Family Health International: includes an
elective in Integrated Medicine, India which is for all levels of allopathic,
osteopathic, naturopathic medical students, public health students, allied
health and pre-med students
International Union for the Natural Health, Complementary & Alternative
Medicine Professions (IUHN): mission includes: "promoting and protecting the
interests of the CAM Professions and all union members in the legislative,
regulatory, and political arenas and protecting the professional practice
interests and legal rights of CAM practitioners and advancing the Profession's
standards of practice, education and research"
National Board for Certified Clinical Hyponotherapists (NBCCH): "developed a
certification program based upon the education and experience of mental health,
counseling and healthcare practitioners in hypnotherapy
National Board of Chiropractic Examiners (NBCE)
National Certification Board for Therapeutic Massage and Bodywork (NCBTMB)
National Certification Commission for Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine
(NCCAOM)
National College of Naturopathic Medicine: oldest accredited school of natural
medicine in North America, Portland, Oregon
NaturalHealers: directory/listing of educational programs and schools for
individuals pursuing careers in natural healing
New Mexico Academy of Healing Arts: certification programs in Massage,
Ortho-Bionomy®,Somatic Polarity® and Cranial-Sacral
Pacific College of Oriental Medicine: largest college of acupuncture and
Oriental medicine in the United States, with campuses in San Diego and New
York.
Schools and Colleges of Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine, National Acupuncture
and Oriental Medicine Alliance
The Shiatsu School of Canada
Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine & Health Sciences: Tempe and
Scottsdale Arizona
Southwest School of Botanical Medicine Home Page: Albuquerque, New Mexico:
links to herb resources, medicinal plant images and information on this school.
Universal College of Reflexology, Edmonton, Alberta, CANADA
University of Arizona Program in Integrative Medicine: "train physicians to be
leaders in fostering the redesign of medical education to incorporate the
philosophy of Integrative Medicine.
University of Bridgeport College of Naturopathic Medicine, Bridgeport,
Connecticut
University of Maryland, School of Medicine, Program in Complementary Medicine
University of Virginia, The Center for the Study of Complementary and
Alternative Therapies (CSCAT)

Jan

In article <[email hidden]>,

(Tim Bolen) said:

It looks to me that the AMA doesn't like the "quackbuster's" tactics
one bit, and has clearly said so in published commentary. You can go
read their five page article (if you pay the $12) titled "Battling
Quackery - Attitudes About Micronutrient Supplementation in American
Academic Medicine," printed in the Archives of Internal Medicine,
yourself, first, but here is the conclusion of their commentary.
Words you'll never read on quackwatch.com...

"There are only three important questions when evaluating a treatment.
Does it work? What are the adverse effects? How much does it cost?
Ideally, the treatment or the guild to which the proponents of the
treatment belong should be irrelevant to the fundamental questions of
efficacy, toxicity, and cost."

I'm glad you agree that these questions ARE important, as they are
EXACTLY what those whom you trash as "quackbusters" routinely ask:

Does it work?
What, if any, adverse effects does it have?

Why, then, does it bother you so much when these questions are asked
about Hulda Clark's "treatments"?

I suspect that the answer is that these are questions that your allies
like Hulda Clark never seem able to provide answers for, answers backed
by sound scientific evidence. Until they do, their "remedies" and
"treatments" should be considered AT BEST unproven. At worst, they are
quackery, when existing evidence strongly supports the contention that
they do not and cannot work.

It would appear that the "medical profession" as criticized by Dr.
Goodwin is not the only one with a double standard. YOUR double standard
is so blatantly obvious that it takes an enormous degree of blindness on
your part to deny it.

Another thing: Just because this commentary was published in Archives of
Internal Medicine does NOT make it the "official" position of the AMA,
anymore than the fact that the New York Times publishes Maureen Dowd's
commentaries make them the "official" position of the New York Times.
Finally, the article discusses ONLY one area of "alt-med,"
micronutrients. It is not a blanket support for all of alt-med, as you
seem to be implying, nor is it a condemnation of the "quackbusters," as
you seem to be implying. (Anyone who doubts this can e-mail me
privately, and I'll send them the PDF of the article Mr. Bolen is
trumpeting.)

Finally, the article (which I've read in its entirety--the advantage of
being faculty at a medical school, I don't have to pay to download the
article) raises some interesting points about selective use of data.
They are points alties like you should consider as well, given that
alties are FAR more likely to "berrypick" data to support a weak case
than "conventional" medical scientists (of course this point will be
completely lost on a fanatical crusader like Mr. Bolen). It also way
overstates one area, its use of Galileo." The authors use a common
logical fallacy used by alties: Comparison to Galileo. Alties love to
compare themselves to Galileo, who was persecuted for his scientific
work showing that the earth was not the center of the universe, but that
rather the earth revolved around the sun, who was later proven correct.
This comparison is not appropriate in the vast majority of cases.
Michael Shermer, in his book, points out that the vast majority of
scientists who promote unconventional ideas that go against mainstream
science and are criticized for it end up being forgotten because they
turn out to be wrong. For every Galileo, there are thousands of
scientists whose unconventional ideas fail to hold up when examined
scientifically.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

In article <[email hidden]>,

(Susan) said:

Rubbish! This is a commentary published in a journal - no more and no
less. As the journal itself says:

"All articles published, including editorials, letters, and book
reviews, represent the opinions of the authors and do not reflect the
policy of the American Medical Association, the Editorial Board, or
the institution with which the author is affiliated, unless this is
clearly specified."

http://archinte.ama-assn.org/about_current.dtl

The AMA position is at the end of this article:

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/article/2036-2523.html

Indeed. Medical journals like JAMA, The Archives of Internal Medicine,
and The New England Journal of Medicine frequently publish editorials
and commentary about various medical issues, sometimes intentionally
provocative ones.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

<lots of nipping and tucking>

Quoted message said:

By the way, Jan, you really have to cut Susan some slack. She is not
your average debunker, and is, in fact, a student of herbs and such.

Not any more. Decided Biology was far more interesting and
challenging.

Quoted message said:

In real life she and I live in the same time zone so we are forced to
agree about the time and date. It is quite possible that this is all
we agree about, as we could live far enough apart to disagree about
the weather.

Robertson (ABC radio) gets turned off after the Sydney forecast so I
guess we can agree on the weather.

Quoted message said:

Oh, and it looks like we agree about Tim Bolen. That's two things now.

I'm sure there are more - some recent comments on your page had me
nodding and agreeing. Shock horror!

Susan

"Susan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<lots of nipping and tucking>

Quoted message said:

By the way, Jan, you really have to cut Susan some slack. She is not
your average debunker, and is, in fact, a student of herbs and such.

Not any more. Decided Biology was far more interesting and
challenging.

Quoted message said:

In real life she and I live in the same time zone so we are forced to
agree about the time and date. It is quite possible that this is all
we agree about, as we could live far enough apart to disagree about
the weather.

Robertson (ABC radio) gets turned off after the Sydney forecast so I
guess we can agree on the weather.

Quoted message said:

Oh, and it looks like we agree about Tim Bolen. That's two things now.

I'm sure there are more - some recent comments on your page had me
nodding and agreeing. Shock horror!

Can you transplant that to Jan?