alternative transport

ray said:

Having a discussion (well, more like argument, he signed off snottily)

Based on your choice of words I assume that he's your younger brother,
then? ;-)

Quoted message said:

with my brother yesterday about alternate modes of transport.
Planning for The End of the World As We Know It (conveniently, after he
retires) AKA When the Oil Runs Out, he wants to build a vehicle,
preferably electric, that will allow him to do the basics he does now.
So check this out. He wants to haul a load of 160 kg for 10 km on a
gradient of 1 in 10, on the power of a hair-dryer running on only 60,
not 240, volts.
Where do those figures come in? 160 kg is based on Bro's weight (c. 80
kg), the weight of an average weekly load of shopping I haul (20-30 kg),
and the weight of the vehicle and batteries (40-50 kg). The 10 km is the
distance from his place to the shops, and the 1 in 10 because he chose
many years ago to live on the ridge at an altitude of 500m. (I live at
147m and use a conventional bike trailer)
And the asthmatic hair-dryer? Well, that, (hair-dryers are about 800W,
so one quarter of that is 200W) or 49cc if petrol powered (assuming
there's any petrol) is all the power rating you get before incurring
Divine Wrath.
Or in other words VicRoads, which is near enough the same thing.
Anything with more power than that has to be Registered. And he wants
to home build this himself, which is an absolute no-no.
So I hereby christen this putative vehicle the Asthmatic Hair-Dryer. And
I want to be invited to the maiden run, so I can watch the uselessly
heavy beast conk out half way up the hill. Not to mention being told to
get off the f---ing road by the Land Barges (as I have been with the
trailer several times).

I've spent the last couple of weeks working out a design for building
a baekfiets (dutch work trike) out of a couple of old bikes and some
scrap steel. I reckon that it has potential as an electric powered
vehicle as well (more space for batteries than a bicycle, better load
distribution, etc.)

Here's how my design is progressing:
http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/236/WorkTrikeSide.gif

Here's a page that I discovered just a few days ago, which would have
helped me enormously:
http://www.christianiabikes.com/english/uk_main.htm

Particularly:
http://www.christianiabikes.com/images/websidebilleder/L-BOXTEGNING_.jpg

I'e got a few other jobs demanding my attention at the moment, but
hopefully I'll be fabricating a prototype sometime in the next few
weeks. I'll make copious notes, and let you know how it goes. ;-)

BTH

ray said:

Having a discussion (well, more like argument, he signed off snottily)
with my brother yesterday about alternate modes of transport.
Planning for The End of the World As We Know It (conveniently, after he
retires) AKA When the Oil Runs Out, he wants to build a vehicle,
preferably electric, that will allow him to do the basics he does now.
So check this out. He wants to haul a load of 160 kg for 10 km on a
gradient of 1 in 10, on the power of a hair-dryer running on only 60,
not 240, volts.
Where do those figures come in? 160 kg is based on Bro's weight (c. 80
kg), the weight of an average weekly load of shopping I haul (20-30 kg),
and the weight of the vehicle and batteries (40-50 kg). The 10 km is the
distance from his place to the shops, and the 1 in 10 because he chose
many years ago to live on the ridge at an altitude of 500m. (I live at
147m and use a conventional bike trailer)
And the asthmatic hair-dryer? Well, that, (hair-dryers are about 800W,
so one quarter of that is 200W) or 49cc if petrol powered (assuming
there's any petrol) is all the power rating you get before incurring
Divine Wrath.
Or in other words VicRoads, which is near enough the same thing.
Anything with more power than that has to be Registered. And he wants
to home build this himself, which is an absolute no-no.
So I hereby christen this putative vehicle the Asthmatic Hair-Dryer. And
I want to be invited to the maiden run, so I can watch the uselessly
heavy beast conk out half way up the hill. Not to mention being told to
get off the f---ing road by the Land Barges (as I have been with the
trailer several times).
Cheers,
Ray

Will he be permitted to drive/ride his vehicle through Carribean Gardens Market?

The Shark

In aus.bicycle on Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:14:10 -0700

BT Humble said:

I've spent the last couple of weeks working out a design for building
a baekfiets (dutch work trike) out of a couple of old bikes and some
scrap steel. I reckon that it has potential as an electric powered
vehicle as well (more space for batteries than a bicycle, better load
distribution, etc.)

You might want to eyeball Moz's pages at http://www.mozbike.com/ as
he's into building weird stuff in the shed. "One Less Ute" for
example. (Although maybe weirder than you want...)

Zebee

ray said:

Having a discussion (well, more like argument, he signed off snottily)
with my brother yesterday about alternate modes of transport.
Planning for The End of the World As We Know It (conveniently, after he
retires) AKA When the Oil Runs Out, he wants to build a vehicle,
preferably electric, that will allow him to do the basics he does now.

Doable, but it will probably be cheap, reliable, economical; pick any two.

Quoted message said:

So check this out. He wants to haul a load of 160 kg for 10 km on a
gradient of 1 in 10, on the power of a hair-dryer running on only 60,
not 240, volts.

So? 160Kg is nothing.

Gradients mean nothing, it is just gearing, but that probably means a
trike as you will be going so slow that it will be a continual balancing
act.

Power of a hair dryer? Sorry, not legal in Australia {:-). SWMBO'd hair
dryer is 1500W and legal limit for power assist is 200W AFAIK.

60Volts is weird. sure it is just 5 x 12V deep discharge batteries in
series, but I do not know of anything commerically at 60V. I think most
bicycle/gopher electric motors come in 12, 24, 36 & 48V.

BTW, this will cost him $AUS3,000 (subject to US$<->AUS$) and weigh
360kg for deep discharge lead acid batteries. He is going to need 10 at
35kg each. Trojan make a 135 Amphr D.D.L.A. battery and he will need two
parrallelled to safely supply the needed 25 amps for 1500W at 60Volts.

If you want to have a long,economical life from deep discharge
batteries, then you charge/discharge at C/10 max. Note, all DDLA
batteries are rated at c/20 and it isn't linear, so take care and give
good maintenance.

With that much invested in DDLA batteries, he will probably need to
spend a couple of thousand on proper battery chargers instead of the
cheap automotive battery chargers.

If he is rich, he could probably look at other battery types, but $$$$$
and short life is normal.

Quoted message said:

Where do those figures come in? 160 kg is based on Bro's weight (c. 80
kg), the weight of an average weekly load of shopping I haul (20-30 kg),
and the weight of the vehicle and batteries (40-50 kg). The 10 km is the
distance from his place to the shops, and the 1 in 10 because he chose
many years ago to live on the ridge at an altitude of 500m.

Wrong way around.

Quoted message said:

(I live at 147m and use a conventional bike trailer)
And the asthmatic hair-dryer? Well, that, (hair-dryers are about 800W,
so one quarter of that is 200W)

Different kettle of fish, but very easily solved.

Quoted message said:

Anything with more power than that has to be Registered. And he wants
to home build this himself, which is an absolute no-no.

err, why?
All it requires is to buy an electric bicycle wheel, controller and
battery pack (plus charge) and install wheel onto front of bicycle,
controller onto handlebars and fasten battery pack to rack or inside frame.

Worst case is a very strong front rack to take an external motor to
drive a fixed gear to get a lower gearing. AFAIUI these electric bike
wheels like the 15-20km/hr range, not the 5km/hr that I normally drag up
hill towing a trailer.

Quoted message said:

So I hereby christen this putative vehicle the Asthmatic Hair-Dryer. And
I want to be invited to the maiden run, so I can watch the uselessly
heavy beast conk out half way up the hill.

Insufficent battery pack size.
Or are you talking about your broher?

Quoted message said:

Not to mention being told to get off the f---ing road
by the Land Barges (as I have been with the trailer several times).

Have you ever noticed that they give you more room at the rear?
And I haven't had to add the rearward facing spikes either?

BT Humble said:

I've spent the last couple of weeks working out a design for building
a baekfiets (dutch work trike) out of a couple of old bikes and some
scrap steel. I reckon that it has potential as an electric powered
vehicle as well (more space for batteries than a bicycle, better load
distribution, etc.)

Quoted message said:

Here's how my design is progressing:
http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/236/WorkTrikeSide.gif

Care to share the angle of the headstem and the size of the tube(s) back
to the bottom bracket?

coppershark said:

ray said:

Having a discussion (well, more like argument, he signed off snottily)
with my brother yesterday about alternate modes of transport.
Planning for The End of the World As We Know It (conveniently, after
he
retires) AKA When the Oil Runs Out, he wants to build a vehicle,
preferably electric, that will allow him to do the basics he does now.
So check this out. He wants to haul a load of 160 kg for 10 km on a
gradient of 1 in 10, on the power of a hair-dryer running on only 60,
not 240, volts.
Where do those figures come in? 160 kg is based on Bro's weight (c. 80
kg), the weight of an average weekly load of shopping I haul (20-30
kg),
and the weight of the vehicle and batteries (40-50 kg). The 10 km is
the
distance from his place to the shops, and the 1 in 10 because he chose
many years ago to live on the ridge at an altitude of 500m. (I live at
147m and use a conventional bike trailer)
And the asthmatic hair-dryer? Well, that, (hair-dryers are about 800W,
so one quarter of that is 200W) or 49cc if petrol powered (assuming
there's any petrol) is all the power rating you get before incurring
Divine Wrath.
Or in other words VicRoads, which is near enough the same thing.
Anything with more power than that has to be Registered. And he wants
to home build this himself, which is an absolute no-no.
So I hereby christen this putative vehicle the Asthmatic Hair-Dryer.
And
I want to be invited to the maiden run, so I can watch the uselessly
heavy beast conk out half way up the hill. Not to mention being told
to
get off the f---ing road by the Land Barges (as I have been with the
trailer several times).
Cheers,
Ray

Will he be permitted to drive/ride his vehicle through Carribean
Gardens Market?

The Shark

Greetings all,
Follow-up to your amusing responses. No, he's my older brother (by
three years), and he's an engineer by profession, so you would
reasonably think he would do the basic calculations and know better.
Electric vehicles are in principle a good idea. The problems are the
power ultimately has to come from somewhere (ie, Horror Hazelwood), the
batteries are fricking heavy, and range very limited, particularly if
you live on Mt Dandenong Tourist Rd, as he does. And they're expensive
to boot relative to my limited intake of carbohydrates.
So whilst an EV might be fine if you live in St Kilda, La Perouse or
Glenelg, it's not if you live on top of a frigging mountain. Which is
probably why I live a little way up the side of the same mountain, and
can thus probably manage for another 10-15 years (hopefully).
Cheers,
Ray

Terryc said:

60Volts is weird. sure it is just 5 x 12V deep discharge batteries in
series, but I do not know of anything commerically at 60V. I think
most bicycle/gopher electric motors come in 12, 24, 36 & 48V.

BTW, this will cost him $AUS3,000 (subject to US$<->AUS$) and weigh
360kg for deep discharge lead acid batteries. He is going to need 10
at 35kg each. Trojan make a 135 Amphr D.D.L.A. battery and he will
need two parrallelled to safely supply the needed 25 amps for 1500W
at 60Volts.

He's not going that far Terry. A 24V Gopher, like my m-i-l has, has a range
of around 30 kms with just two batteries costing about $200 each, and
weighing a lot less than 35kg each. I'd guess less than 25 kg for the pair.

Theo

Theo Bekkers said:

He's not going that far Terry. A 24V Gopher, like my m-i-l has, has a range
of around 30 kms with just two batteries costing about $200 each, and
weighing a lot less than 35kg each. I'd guess less than 25 kg for the pair.

It isn't the distant. It is the discharge rate of the batteries. The
recommendation for deep discharge lead acid batteries is not to exceed a
discharge rate of C/10. so a 130AmphHr can give 13Amps max, if you want
optimal life from the battery.

AFAIKI, many of these gophers are actually consuming batteries, aka they
need replacing regularly.

As I said, if he had the money, he could buy Nicad, NiMh or Lion and
save weight. It is just a question of how much he wants to regularly
spend on new batteries.

It would be interesting to know the exact details (type, capacity and
weight) of the batteries in the gopher.

ray said:

Having a discussion (well, more like argument, he signed off snottily)
with my brother yesterday about alternate modes of transport.
Planning for The End of the World As We Know It (conveniently, after he
retires) AKA When the Oil Runs Out, he wants to build a vehicle,
preferably electric, that will allow him to do the basics he does now.
So check this out. He wants to haul a load of 160 kg for 10 km on a
gradient of 1 in 10, on the power of a hair-dryer running on only 60,
not 240, volts.
Where do those figures come in? 160 kg is based on Bro's weight (c. 80
kg), the weight of an average weekly load of shopping I haul (20-30 kg),
and the weight of the vehicle and batteries (40-50 kg). The 10 km is the
distance from his place to the shops, and the 1 in 10 because he chose
many years ago to live on the ridge at an altitude of 500m. (I live at
147m and use a conventional bike trailer)
And the asthmatic hair-dryer? Well, that, (hair-dryers are about 800W,
so one quarter of that is 200W) or 49cc if petrol powered (assuming
there's any petrol) is all the power rating you get before incurring
Divine Wrath.
Or in other words VicRoads, which is near enough the same thing.
Anything with more power than that has to be Registered. And he wants
to home build this himself, which is an absolute no-no.
So I hereby christen this putative vehicle the Asthmatic Hair-Dryer. And
I want to be invited to the maiden run, so I can watch the uselessly
heavy beast conk out half way up the hill. Not to mention being told to
get off the f---ing road by the Land Barges (as I have been with the
trailer several times).
Cheers,
Ray

Next door to me, a kid of about 8 is experimenting with electric bikes
and
scooters, and maybe when he matures with his ideas something will come
of it all,
and perhaps whatever he makes will become attractive to those forced to
give up motoring
when oil runs out, and when "carbon taxes" have become grossly onerous
to pay.
Maybe nothing comes of it, and when he turns 18, his hormones will lead
him to a sheila,
and from there to having children, and without fixing the world's
problems first.

A racing cyclist makes about 400 watts, does he not?
What can be done with 400W applied to
say 70kg up steep hills is evident in Tour De France.

99.9999% of cyclists cannot do what the TDF guys do, and so have to make
do with 200W of leg power,
unless they are old and feeble, when 50W might be all they can make.

But anyway, 200W applied to 160Kg, rider, bike plus batteries, and rider
not pedling
isn't going to whiz you up a steep climb very fast, but at least faster
than not getting up the hill at all.

There are now plenty of electric powered "travelling aids" easily
available to anyome wanting to use one.
The people who use them have nearly all lost the use of their legs, so
hence.. ----electric wheel chairs----.
These smart modern contraptions have been around for awhile now, and it
allows the elderly and infirm
to go shopping and get out and about without someone pushing a
wheelchair. They cost thousands $$$
to buy, but afaik, can be leased, because an old person might only need
such a thing
for the last few years of life.
I am not aware of a version of such things designed for the young person
who likes to be
seen putting on the agony and style most of the time.

The fact that electric vehicles don't already exist is due to a large
number of complex reasons
which could be summarized by saying "because of multiple failings of
human beings".
There was a very good film produced recently 'Who Killed The Electric
Car'.
This dealt with the story about the GM electric car produced for a short
while by General Motors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car%3F
The GM car was only ever leased to users from GM, and only one survives
in a museum.

The story about the GM car is, imho, a terribly sad one about car
makers, car parts makers,
politicians, and the US way of life. The US way of life depends on each
person needing
1,000 watts (or more) of power to live 24/7, 365 days a year. Attemps
by anyone to reduce the energy
use will be seen as terribly upsetting to power producers, regardless of
who they are,
or what sort of power in involved. A macro conspiracy exists to keep
people hooked
up to the electricity grid and to require petrol supplies. Old
establishments all
say the same about change, "W'ell all be rooned".

All forms of power supplied from coal burning or motive power from fuel
burning
will have to be reduced probably 70% within 20 years if we are to have
any hope of reducing greenhouse,
maybe more even, because world population looks set to at least double
in 50 years,
and all this lies within the life span of the kid next door.

Anyway, since the demise of the wonderfully bright idea of th GM
electric car,
other makers have stepped in with things like the Toyota Prious, which
gives very much better fuel consumption figures than most other things,
but obviously not quite as good as an electic bicycle, which alas will
never be bought
in large numbers because people want to be enclosed while travelling.
Economics might force ppl onto electric bikes, but there are no such
forces right now.
Even if petrol prices tripled, i'd still own a car.

The energy of 1,000 watts continuously for each person on the planet
365/24/7 will has to come from somewhere.

I just cannot see a future for our species without such power
capability.

So "Planning for The End of the World As We Know It (conveniently, after
he

Quoted message said:

retires) AKA When the Oil Runs Out" means we must plan

for the world as we DON'T know it.

Solar power looks the most acceptable. There are some sobering figures
about solar collector area per person
to make that 1,000 watts per hr all day every day and including being
able to charge up
batteries for use at night when the sun don't shine, or when the weather
is cloudy.

Probably, I might need an acre to be covered with solar panels just for
my little frugal use of power.
Such a quantity of panels might cost more than a house, and need to be
replaced each 20 years,
and then there is plant maintenance.

There are 330,000 ppl in my town, and where do they each find a spare
$200,000 and 330,000 acres of land to
erect solar power instalations?

Nobody prominent is at all asking the hard questions about alternative
power and about alternative transport.
"Alternative" is a word not used much by politicians because it means
"unacceptable"
and is only mainly used about one's political enemies.
Alternative = [censored].

They all know they would be roundly condemned by everyone because of the
bad news, which
of course is the horrendous cost of genuine alternatives.

John Howard wants to make Australia generate its energy by nuclear
power, like all those other countries,
and no doubt a large amount of [censored] will hit the fan about the issue
from the greens,
and the NIMBY mob. Personally, I don't like nuclear power, and don't
like the probable fact John Howard
has basically been told by Big Brother US ally to "go nuclear, youse
need the bombs" for your security.

But I don't see too many viable alternatives likely to arrive soon.

I am technically a complete nobody. My life will end about the time the
8 yr old kid next door becomes quite alarmed
about having 100 summer days over 35C, and Australia being in drought
most of the time and forced to reduce
almost all of its food exports, and the Murray Darling bone dry, and an
outside unstable world
with continual wars over land and food amd water due to climate change.
There is NOW a war over oil in Iraq.

Perhaps the way forward with the ""putative vehicle the Asthmatic
Hair-Dryer""
is to mount a small but efficient petrol or diesel engine of perhaps
400watt capacity on the "cycle",
and have it generate power to store in the batteries which can only be
released
at the legal limited rate of 200W to the drive wheel/s

There does not appear to ne any law against having a large sized
generator carried by the 200W limited vehicle.

The principle of the hybrid should be just as viable with an "untralite"
vehicle such as a bicycle/tricycle
as it is in any electric car designed for high speeds with safety.

The kid next door is yet to wake up to all this stuff about life being
complex, and there being no
easy simple solutions, but no doubt ppl in future will be forced to
think about it more.
Once you have to build a generator and store the energy, its depressing
to
see just what inefficiancies and losses are involved. Life wasn't meant
to be simple.

Meanwhile, my sleep has been disturbed at times by ppl in the suburb
using strap ons,
ie, petrol power two stroke motors with a jockey wheel thet presses
against a front or rear
bicycle tyre, after the strap on is strapped to the ordinary push bike.
My main grouch is that
such things deafen all those around; the problem of noise pollution has
not been addressed.

But if its possible to get 100HP from a 1,000cc engine, 5cc can give 0.5
HP, or 375 watts,
and of course about 2,000 MPG, and if diesel, could easily be run using
canola oil.

If 12 billion people used 5cc engines and 2 tablespoon fulls of
vegetable oil each day to get around,
we might solve part of a problem. Only part. Certainly not the other
part, the bigger part,
and the hard part, eg, it takes more than a spoonful of oil to heat the
water for a bath.

But people just ain't ever going to settle for glorified bicycles, and
many
will remain addicted to agony and style, even if it kills them.

Patrick Turner.

Key the figures into
http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm
160kg, 1:10, 200W (legal limit) = 3.9km/h

Reversing the calculation and modifying the conditions
160kg, 1:25 (more reasonable for a cycling route), 15km/h = 371W

The limit should really be 300-400W, not current inadequate 200W.

Then you need to add the mass or the motor and batteries, so the figure is a bit worse. Range is the problem with electric batteries. Hydrocarbons are a really good compact source of energy.

I commuted on a 200W electric assist bike about 15km per day for 4 years. It worked well for that. For a longer range, using lead acid batteries makes it too heavy for an ordinary bike.

Terryc said:

BT Humble said:

I've spent the last couple of weeks working out a design for building
a baekfiets (dutch work trike) out of a couple of old bikes and some
scrap steel. I reckon that it has potential as an electric powered
vehicle as well (more space for batteries than a bicycle, better load
distribution, etc.)
Here's how my design is progressing:
http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/236/WorkTrikeSide.gif

Care to share the angle of the headstem and the size of the tube(s) back
to the bottom bracket?

*warning* I'm still only at the "tinkering on e-paper" stage as yet.

I was planning to use some 40mm square hollow section for the "boom"
connecting the steering head and bottom bracket, partly because I have
it, but mostly because that will make it easier to keep the steering
head perpendicular to the bottom bracket without needing to use
complex jigwork. It looks to me as though the combination of forward
angled steering head and trailing front axle mounts (i.e. behind the
steering head) on the christianiabikes designs is intended to make the
trike naturally inclined to steer straight ahead, so I'll do that
too. Using a small amount of positive camber on the wheels (bottoms
sloped outwards) will help the steering.

I'm thinking at the moment of attaching the steering head
perpendicular to the "boom", and just accepting whatever angle it
presents once the boom is angled downward from the bottom bracket to
match up with the bottom of the steering "turntable". I'm intending
to use a recycled 1-piece crank and its bottom bracket shell as the
turntable bearing, partly because I have them, and also because they
have thicker walls and are less likely to warp under the heat of arc
welding (with a stick welder).

If there are proper technical terms that I should be using intstead of
"boom", "steering head" and "turntable", please let me know. I'm just
not sure that "headstem" is appropriate in this case. ;-)

BTH

Patrick Turner said:

ray said:

Having a discussion (well, more like argument, he signed off snottily)
with my brother yesterday about alternate modes of transport.
Planning for The End of the World As We Know It (conveniently, after he
retires) AKA When the Oil Runs Out, he wants to build a vehicle,
preferably electric, that will allow him to do the basics he does now.
So check this out. He wants to haul a load of 160 kg for 10 km on a
gradient of 1 in 10, on the power of a hair-dryer running on only 60,
not 240, volts.
Where do those figures come in? 160 kg is based on Bro's weight (c. 80
kg), the weight of an average weekly load of shopping I haul (20-30 kg),
and the weight of the vehicle and batteries (40-50 kg). The 10 km is the
distance from his place to the shops, and the 1 in 10 because he chose
many years ago to live on the ridge at an altitude of 500m. (I live at
147m and use a conventional bike trailer)
And the asthmatic hair-dryer? Well, that, (hair-dryers are about 800W,
so one quarter of that is 200W) or 49cc if petrol powered (assuming
there's any petrol) is all the power rating you get before incurring
Divine Wrath.
Or in other words VicRoads, which is near enough the same thing.
Anything with more power than that has to be Registered. And he wants
to home build this himself, which is an absolute no-no.
So I hereby christen this putative vehicle the Asthmatic Hair-Dryer. And
I want to be invited to the maiden run, so I can watch the uselessly
heavy beast conk out half way up the hill. Not to mention being told to
get off the f---ing road by the Land Barges (as I have been with the
trailer several times).
Cheers,
Ray

Next door to me, a kid of about 8 is experimenting with electric bikes
and
scooters, and maybe when he matures with his ideas something will come
of it all,
and perhaps whatever he makes will become attractive to those forced to
give up motoring
when oil runs out, and when "carbon taxes" have become grossly onerous
to pay.
Maybe nothing comes of it, and when he turns 18, his hormones will lead
him to a sheila,
and from there to having children, and without fixing the world's
problems first.

A racing cyclist makes about 400 watts, does he not?
What can be done with 400W applied to
say 70kg up steep hills is evident in Tour De France.

99.9999% of cyclists cannot do what the TDF guys do, and so have to make
do with 200W of leg power,
unless they are old and feeble, when 50W might be all they can make.

But anyway, 200W applied to 160Kg, rider, bike plus batteries, and rider
not pedling
isn't going to whiz you up a steep climb very fast, but at least faster
than not getting up the hill at all.

There are now plenty of electric powered "travelling aids" easily
available to anyome wanting to use one.
The people who use them have nearly all lost the use of their legs, so
hence.. ----electric wheel chairs----.
These smart modern contraptions have been around for awhile now, and it
allows the elderly and infirm
to go shopping and get out and about without someone pushing a
wheelchair. They cost thousands $$$
to buy, but afaik, can be leased, because an old person might only need
such a thing
for the last few years of life.
I am not aware of a version of such things designed for the young person
who likes to be
seen putting on the agony and style most of the time.

The fact that electric vehicles don't already exist is due to a large
number of complex reasons
which could be summarized by saying "because of multiple failings of
human beings".
There was a very good film produced recently 'Who Killed The Electric
Car'.
This dealt with the story about the GM electric car produced for a short
while by General Motors.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car%3F
The GM car was only ever leased to users from GM, and only one survives
in a museum.

The story about the GM car is, imho, a terribly sad one about car
makers, car parts makers,
politicians, and the US way of life. The US way of life depends on each
person needing
1,000 watts (or more) of power to live 24/7, 365 days a year. Attemps
by anyone to reduce the energy
use will be seen as terribly upsetting to power producers, regardless of
who they are,
or what sort of power in involved. A macro conspiracy exists to keep
people hooked
up to the electricity grid and to require petrol supplies. Old
establishments all
say the same about change, "W'ell all be rooned".

All forms of power supplied from coal burning or motive power from fuel
burning
will have to be reduced probably 70% within 20 years if we are to have
any hope of reducing greenhouse,
maybe more even, because world population looks set to at least double
in 50 years,
and all this lies within the life span of the kid next door.

Anyway, since the demise of the wonderfully bright idea of th GM
electric car,
other makers have stepped in with things like the Toyota Prious, which
gives very much better fuel consumption figures than most other things,
but obviously not quite as good as an electic bicycle, which alas will
never be bought
in large numbers because people want to be enclosed while travelling.
Economics might force ppl onto electric bikes, but there are no such
forces right now.
Even if petrol prices tripled, i'd still own a car.

The energy of 1,000 watts continuously for each person on the planet
365/24/7 will has to come from somewhere.

I just cannot see a future for our species without such power
capability.

So "Planning for The End of the World As We Know It (conveniently, after
he> retires) AKA When the Oil Runs Out" means we must plan

for the world as we DON'T know it.

Solar power looks the most acceptable. There are some sobering figures
about solar collector area per person
to make that 1,000 watts per hr all day every day and including being
able to charge up
batteries for use at night when the sun don't shine, or when the weather
is cloudy.

Probably, I might need an acre to be covered with solar panels just for
my little frugal use of power.
Such a quantity of panels might cost more than a house, and need to be
replaced each 20 years,
and then there is plant maintenance.

There are 330,000 ppl in my town, and where do they each find a spare
$200,000 and 330,000 acres of land to
erect solar power instalations?

Nobody prominent is at all asking the hard questions about alternative
power and about alternative transport.
"Alternative" is a word not used much by politicians because it means
"unacceptable"
and is only mainly used about one's political enemies.
Alternative = [censored].

They all know they would be roundly condemned by everyone because of the
bad news, which
of course is the horrendous cost of genuine alternatives.

John Howard wants to make Australia generate its energy by nuclear
power, like all those other countries,
and no doubt a large amount of [censored] will hit the fan about the issue
from the greens,
and the NIMBY mob. Personally, I don't like nuclear power, and don't
like the probable fact John Howard
has basically been told by Big Brother US ally to "go nuclear, youse
need the bombs" for your security.

But I don't see too many viable alternatives likely to arrive soon.

I am technically a complete nobody. My life will end about the time the
8 yr old kid next door becomes quite alarmed
about having 100 summer days over 35C, and Australia being in drought
most of the time and forced to reduce
almost all of its food exports, and the Murray Darling bone dry, and an
outside unstable world
with continual wars over land and food amd water due to climate change.
There is NOW a war over oil in Iraq.

Perhaps the way forward with the ""putative vehicle the Asthmatic
Hair-Dryer""
is to mount a small but efficient petrol or diesel engine of perhaps
400watt capacity on the "cycle",
and have it generate power to store in the batteries which can only be
released
at the legal limited rate of 200W to the drive wheel/s

There does not appear to ne any law against having a large sized
generator carried by the 200W limited vehicle.

The principle of the hybrid should be just as viable with an "untralite"
vehicle such as a bicycle/tricycle
as it is in any electric car designed for high speeds with safety.

The kid next door is yet to wake up to all this stuff about life being
complex, and there being no
easy simple solutions, but no doubt ppl in future will be forced to
think about it more.
Once you have to build a generator and store the energy, its depressing
to
see just what inefficiancies and losses are involved. Life wasn't meant
to be simple.

Meanwhile, my sleep has been disturbed at times by ppl in the suburb
using strap ons,
ie, petrol power two stroke motors with a jockey wheel thet presses
against a front or rear
bicycle tyre, after the strap on is strapped to the ordinary push bike.
My main grouch is that
such things deafen all those around; the problem of noise pollution has
not been addressed.

But if its possible to get 100HP from a 1,000cc engine, 5cc can give 0.5
HP, or 375 watts,
and of course about 2,000 MPG, and if diesel, could easily be run using
canola oil.

If 12 billion people used 5cc engines and 2 tablespoon fulls of
vegetable oil each day to get around,
we might solve part of a problem. Only part. Certainly not the other
part, the bigger part,
and the hard part, eg, it takes more than a spoonful of oil to heat the
water for a bath.

But people just ain't ever going to settle for glorified bicycles, and
many
will remain addicted to agony and style, even if it kills them.

Patrick Turner.

I read all of that, and it was worth it, thanks Patrick.

Donga

Zebee Johnstone said:

BT Humble said:

I've spent the last couple of weeks working out a design for building
a baekfiets (dutch work trike) out of a couple of old bikes and some
scrap steel. I reckon that it has potential as an electric powered
vehicle as well (more space for batteries than a bicycle, better load
distribution, etc.)

You might want to eyeball Moz's pages at http://www.mozbike.com/ as
he's into building weird stuff in the shed. "One Less Ute" for
example. (Although maybe weirder than you want...)

I've been looking at cargo vehicles/combinations for a while now
(trailers, sidecars, huge racks, stretched-rear bikes) and I've
concluded that for my purposes this design is probably going to work
the best, be the most stable and controllable, and be the simplest to
construct.

Those Dutch people have been fooling around with bicycles for a long
time, so I'm quite happy to learn from the final result their
experiments! ;-)

BTH

BT Humble said:

Zebee Johnstone said:

You might want to eyeball Moz's pages athttp://www.mozbike.com/as
he's into building weird stuff in the shed. "One Less Ute" for
example. (Although maybe weirder than you want...)

I've been looking at cargo vehicles/combinations for a while now
(trailers, sidecars, huge racks, stretched-rear bikes) and I've
concluded that for my purposes this design is probably going to work
the best, be the most stable and controllable, and be the simplest to
construct.

You did see this bit :-)
"Bike completed August 2002"
"Bike failed Sept 2003 the frame cracked at both ends of the main
tube"

Terryc said:

Theo Bekkers wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

He's not going that far Terry. A 24V Gopher, like my m-i-l has, has
a range of around 30 kms with just two batteries costing about $200
each, and weighing a lot less than 35kg each. I'd guess less than 25
kg for the pair.

Quoted message said:

It isn't the distant. It is the discharge rate of the batteries. The
recommendation for deep discharge lead acid batteries is not to
exceed a discharge rate of C/10. so a 130AmphHr can give 13Amps max,
if you want optimal life from the battery.

AFAIKI, many of these gophers are actually consuming batteries, aka
they need replacing regularly.

Quoted message said:

It would be interesting to know the exact details (type, capacity and
weight) of the batteries in the gopher.

Well yes. We bought the gopher for m-i-l in 1995 and the batteries were
replaced two years ago. I thought that was pretty good, ten years and it
gets used almost daily.

Theo

Donga said:

Patrick Turner said:

ray wrote:
<snip for brevity>
But people just ain't ever going to settle for glorified bicycles, and
many
will remain addicted to agony and style, even if it kills them.

Patrick Turner.

I read all of that, and it was worth it, thanks Patrick.

Donga

Love this, guys. Sounds like he needs about a kilowatt, and however many
batteries it takes to provide that for any reasonable length of time.
The weight estimates have obviously gone WAY up, sounds like about at
least 200 kg, equivalent to a small motorcycle, and a lot of moolah.

I should obviously submit this one to Mythbusters -

How far and how fast can you propel about a quarter ton up a steep slope
using the motor out of a blender at low voltage?

I suspect `not much' in both cases. But that's all those [censored] at
VicRoads (and other state road authorities) will give you. So I'm sure
my brother will be very pleased to know he's doomed in all respects from
the start.
Cheers,
Ray

I would reckon this would be a good way to go

Greenspeed prototype ute

add electric assist

Mike

brucef said:

You did see this bit :-)
"Bike completed August 2002"
"Bike failed Sept 2003 the frame cracked at both ends of the main
tube"

Yep, I saw that. It's a different type of vehicle, and loaded up a
LOT more than I'm intending though.

BTH

"ray" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Donga said:

Patrick Turner said:

ray wrote:
<snip for brevity>
But people just ain't ever going to settle for glorified bicycles, and
many
will remain addicted to agony and style, even if it kills them.

Patrick Turner.

I read all of that, and it was worth it, thanks Patrick.

Donga

Love this, guys. Sounds like he needs about a kilowatt, and however many
batteries it takes to provide that for any reasonable length of time. The
weight estimates have obviously gone WAY up, sounds like about at least
200 kg, equivalent to a small motorcycle, and a lot of moolah.

I should obviously submit this one to Mythbusters -

How far and how fast can you propel about a quarter ton up a steep slope
using the motor out of a blender at low voltage?

I suspect `not much' in both cases. But that's all those [censored] at
VicRoads (and other state road authorities) will give you. So I'm sure my
brother will be very pleased to know he's doomed in all respects from the
start.
Cheers,
Ray

Maybe a shift in thinking needed is from the notion of an entirely
self-propelled vehicle to an 'assisted' vehicle. If your brother accepts
doing some of the work (pedalling, for instance) and having the propulsion
device do some work, then 200W of *assistance*, properly geared, may well be
adequate.

Cheers,

Frank