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Alternative Medicine is Mainstream

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General fitness, health and nutrition
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26 December 2005
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7 January 2006
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  1. I have located a printed directory of alternative medicine for the
    Central Virginia area.

    "The Directory of Complementary Healthcare Professionals (DOC), Second
    Edition is scheduled for publication in the Summer 2004."
    http://www.brandylanepublishers.com/doc04a.htm

    "DOC is distributed free to healthcare providers, including hospitals,
    clinics, physicians, dentists and participating practitioners. Also
    available through booksellers, grocers, pharmacies, natural and
    holistic shops, and other locations. Anticipated readership: 100,000 -
    150,000."

    Currently over seventy (70) categories of alternative medicine are
    included.

    It is one of the best kept secretes in Richmond, VA. But if you try
    looking for one at a natural health grocery store, you should be able
    to find one in the book department.

    The directory documents that alternative medicine is mainstream.
    Whether or not this stuff works in the opinion of the Quackpots is
    entirely besides the point.

    So why don't we get real for a change? Conventional businesses are
    marketing to people interested in alternative medicine in a big way.
    It is no different from business selling out America by catering to
    Spanish speaking illegal aliens. These people have cold hard cash to
    spend and businesses are more than willing to go after this market. 🙂

    Wikipedia can argue to they are blue in the face that physical therapy
    is NOT a form of alternative medicine. The reality is that more than a
    few physical therapists are going after the alternative medicine
    market. Here is one example, that I am familiar with.

    "May Physical Therapy is located within health clubs, thus removing the
    'patient' syndrome and supporting a healthy and fit therapy outlook and
    recovery. We offer innovative physical and aquatic therapy (including
    watsu), and myofacial release."

    May Physical Therapy is located in my AFFC gym, for example. They
    offer massages for $40/HR. In one recent, gym advertisement they were
    soliciting people with running and other exercise related injuries.
    So, you idiots can make it a law that physical therapy is a part of
    conventional medicine, but the reality is that more than a few see
    themselves catering to the alternative health market.

    The same goes for psychologists. You in academia can claim all that
    you want that psychology has nothing to do with alternative medicine,
    but in the real world people are paying these people in the range of
    $70+ an hour for their alternative health services. Probably more
    psychologists are advertising than any other group of people in this
    directory.

    At least one MD is offering Homeopathic services. Of course, may other
    physicians and medical centers are catering to the mind-body market,
    and the like.

    Then we can see a few surprises. Even though the Commonwealth of
    Virginia does NOT sanction naturopathy there are more than a few
    naturopaths practicing in this region of the country. At least one of
    them is located in Richmond, VA with only a ND after their name. I
    thought that naturopathy was illegal here, but that does not seem to
    keep them out of Virginia.

    The same goes for reflexology. Is this stuff legal in Virginia? I
    doubt it, but that ain't stopping a number of different individuals
    from advertising their alternative health services to the public.

    Just thought that you might want to know.
    --
    john gohde
    http://naturalhealthperspective.com/

  2. "The directory documents that alternative medicine is mainstream. Whether
    or not this stuff works in the opinion of the Quackpots is entirely
    besides the point."

    "Alternative medicine" has always been mainstream, in the commercial
    sense. What "works" is measured by demonstrated science, not yearly sales
    levels and how common marketing makes it known. Alternative medicen must
    be demonstrated the same way any medice is if it is to be science, and far
    too little has been so demonstrated with the bulk still in the "pig in a
    poke" and hocus pocus levels.

  3. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I have located a printed directory of alternative medicine for the
    Central Virginia area.

    "The Directory of Complementary Healthcare Professionals (DOC), Second
    Edition is scheduled for publication in the Summer 2004."
    http://www.brandylanepublishers.com/doc04a.htm

    "DOC is distributed free to healthcare providers, including hospitals,
    clinics, physicians, dentists and participating practitioners. Also
    available through booksellers, grocers, pharmacies, natural and
    holistic shops, and other locations. Anticipated readership: 100,000 -
    150,000."

    Currently over seventy (70) categories of alternative medicine are
    included.

    It is one of the best kept secretes in Richmond, VA. But if you try
    looking for one at a natural health grocery store, you should be able
    to find one in the book department.

    The directory documents that alternative medicine is mainstream.
    Whether or not this stuff works in the opinion of the Quackpots is
    entirely besides the point.

    Beside what point? Healthy economists knew decades ago that the public
    demand for medical attentions is potentially inexhaustible. If people know
    about it , they will use it. Medical attention satisfies many human needs
    other than the strictly medical. Also many common medical complaints don't
    need efficacious treatments for patients to be very satisfied with their
    care. One study showed that patients expressed greater satisfaction with
    hands-on regular chiropractic attentions when compared to usual medical
    treatment, even though they did not get out of bed, or back to work quicker.

    Then there is practitioner-shopping and placebo reactions, as in this
    patient of mine --
    Female aged 40--

    Long history persisting severe abdominal symptoms mainly pain and diarrhoea,
    previously investigated by another surgeon and a gastroenterologist, and
    advised she had an irritable bowel syndrome.

    Referred by GP Dec 1997 -has anything been overlooked?. Arranged to do some
    further investigations after Christmas period.

    Rang in January to say won't be back. Has seen local chiropractor, who
    massaged abdomen to relieve "stuck ileocaecal valve". No symptoms at all for
    3 weeks!

    Seen 19/1/98 Symptoms recurred- wanting to go ahead with tests.

    Investigations negative but symptoms continued. Said that she could not eat
    fresh bread without symptoms, but could eat toast-could she have candida?. I
    suspected she was seeing a naturopath, and this was confirmed when seen
    19/2/98 when she told me she was now quite well again. She had discovered
    she indeed had Candida, and found she had no problems so long as she avoided
    corn, lactose, and yeast containing foods, No pain now and diarrhoea
    settled.

    Sent back to here GP, but out of curiosity I rang her 13/8/98 Still
    symptoms, but has bow seen an iridologist, who told her she has "digestive
    problems". Taking "Nature's Own digestive enzymes" which is helping. Can
    drink goat's milk but not cow's milk. Delighted to finally have a
    "diagnosis".

    One of the reasons I am sure this lady has some kind of psychosomatic
    problem and/or attention seeking behaviour is that on two occasions I have
    done internal examinations immediately after supposed severe diarhoea and
    found normal faeces in the rectum.

    Note that all these therapists are likely to be delighted with their
    "success" with this lady.

    Peter Moran

    www.cancerwatcher.com

  4. First, I'd like to see a clear, concise definition of "alternative
    medicine" that everyone can agree upon, which is unlikely. There are
    tried and true medical interventions that have science supporting them,
    but today, everything seems to be based on "markers" and
    "associations," such as the push to lower cholesterol, even though only
    oxidized cholesterol is a problem, and is easy to avoid if you know the
    basics. "Mainstream medicine" is largely a failure because it is based
    on such flawed assumptions (as well as the "germ theory," which, when
    applied in the usual, crude form, does more harm than good).

    There also needs to be an underlying theoretical framework, which does
    exist now (what one might call the "oxidizing agents hypothesis of
    chronic disease"😉, but is just not understood by the lackies who are in
    charge of the major medical institutions today.

  5. "montygram" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    First, I'd like to see a clear, concise definition of "alternative
    medicine" that everyone can agree upon, which is unlikely.

    There is no problem so long as you realise that it is about specific claims,
    and the quality of evidence sustaining them. . Being "alternative" is not a
    property of a specific modality.

    An example would be the herbal product Artemesinin, which is a useful
    anti-malarial (side effects a problem, though). It is also used in the
    "alternative" treatment of cancer despite the absence of evidence that it
    will cure human cancer.

    Peter Moran

  6. "montygram" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    First, I'd like to see a clear, concise definition of "alternative
    medicine" that everyone can agree upon, which is unlikely. There are


    Another word for "alternative" is untested.

    Robert

  7. "Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "montygram" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    First, I'd like to see a clear, concise definition of "alternative
    medicine" that everyone can agree upon, which is unlikely. There are


    Another word for "alternative" is untested.

    Robert

    Please do tell us just exactly how much of conventional medicine has been
    proven?

  8. JanD said:

    "Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "montygram" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    First, I'd like to see a clear, concise definition of "alternative
    medicine" that everyone can agree upon, which is unlikely. There are

    Another word for "alternative" is untested.

    Robert

    Please do tell us just exactly how much of conventional medicine has been
    proven?

    All. Whether it be by rigorous testing, or experience of professionals,
    all.

    Remember, AltMed goes from curious finding to sales without testing.

  9. Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:06:52 -0500 in article <[email hidden]>

    Mark Probert said:
    JanD said:

    "Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "montygram" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    >First, I'd like to see a clear, concise definition of "alternative
    >medicine" that everyone can agree upon, which is unlikely. There are
    >

    Another word for "alternative" is untested.

    Robert

    Please do tell us just exactly how much of conventional medicine has been
    proven?

    All. Whether it be by rigorous testing, or experience of professionals,
    all.


    According to the article

    Sharon Kingman.
    Quality Control for Medicine.
    The New Scientist, 17 September 1994.

    only 20% of medical procedures had been rigorously tested at that time. Now
    the percentage is surely much higher, but hardly 100%. "Experience of
    professionals" does not count, because 1) alternative medicine practitioners
    can make exactly the same argument, and 2) even for experienced
    professionals it may be impossible to notice a difference between a real
    effect and a placebo effect, which is why randomized controlled clinical
    trials are needed.

    --
    Matti Narkia

  10. Matti Narkia said:

    Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:06:52 -0500 in article <[email hidden]>

    Mark Probert said:
    JanD said:

    "Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    >"montygram" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    >news:[email hidden]...
    >
    >
    >>First, I'd like to see a clear, concise definition of "alternative
    >>medicine" that everyone can agree upon, which is unlikely. There are
    >>
    >
    >Another word for "alternative" is untested.
    >
    >Robert

    Please do tell us just exactly how much of conventional medicine has been
    proven?

    All. Whether it be by rigorous testing, or experience of professionals,
    all.

    According to the article

    Sharon Kingman.
    Quality Control for Medicine.
    The New Scientist, 17 September 1994.

    only 20% of medical procedures had been rigorously tested at that time. Now
    the percentage is surely much higher, but hardly 100%. "Experience of
    professionals" does not count, because 1) alternative medicine practitioners
    can make exactly the same argument, and 2) even for experienced
    professionals it may be impossible to notice a difference between a real
    effect and a placebo effect, which is why randomized controlled clinical
    trials are needed.

    Experience of the professionals, IMNSHO, does count. The experience of
    well trained and educated physicians in using the medical procedures (a
    term which is not defined in the blurb you posted) on different patients
    in multiple settings is proof of effectiveness.

    To equate a medicall trained professional with a herb doctor,
    chiropractor, naturopath, etc. is utterly absurd.

  11. Matti Narkia said:

    Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:06:52 -0500 in article <[email hidden]>

    Mark Probert said:
    JanD said:

    "Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    >"montygram" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    >news:[email hidden]...
    >
    >
    >>First, I'd like to see a clear, concise definition of "alternative
    >>medicine" that everyone can agree upon, which is unlikely. There are
    >>
    >
    >Another word for "alternative" is untested.
    >
    >Robert

    Please do tell us just exactly how much of conventional medicine has been
    proven?

    All. Whether it be by rigorous testing, or experience of professionals,
    all.

    According to the article

    Sharon Kingman.
    Quality Control for Medicine.
    The New Scientist, 17 September 1994.

    only 20% of medical procedures had been rigorously tested at that time. Now
    the percentage is surely much higher, but hardly 100%. "Experience of
    professionals" does not count, because 1) alternative medicine practitioners
    can make exactly the same argument, and 2) even for experienced
    professionals it may be impossible to notice a difference between a real
    effect and a placebo effect, which is why randomized controlled clinical
    trials are needed.

    Oh, an dnot all "medical procedures" can be subjected to randomized
    controlled clinical trials.

  12. Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:41:20 -0500 in article <[email hidden]> Mark

    Probert said:
    Matti Narkia said:

    Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:06:52 -0500 in article <[email hidden]>

    Mark Probert said:

    JanD wrote:

    >"Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    >news:[email hidden]...
    >
    >
    >>"montygram" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    >>news:[email hidden]...
    >>
    >>
    >>>First, I'd like to see a clear, concise definition of "alternative
    >>>medicine" that everyone can agree upon, which is unlikely. There are
    >>>
    >>
    >>Another word for "alternative" is untested.
    >>
    >>Robert
    >
    >
    >Please do tell us just exactly how much of conventional medicine has been
    >proven?

    All. Whether it be by rigorous testing, or experience of professionals,
    all.

    According to the article

    Sharon Kingman.
    Quality Control for Medicine.
    The New Scientist, 17 September 1994.

    only 20% of medical procedures had been rigorously tested at that time. Now
    the percentage is surely much higher, but hardly 100%. "Experience of
    professionals" does not count, because 1) alternative medicine practitioners
    can make exactly the same argument, and 2) even for experienced
    professionals it may be impossible to notice a difference between a real
    effect and a placebo effect, which is why randomized controlled clinical
    trials are needed.

    Experience of the professionals, IMNSHO, does count. The experience of
    well trained and educated physicians in using the medical procedures (a
    term which is not defined in the blurb you posted) on different patients
    in multiple settings is proof of effectiveness.


    I beg to disagree. If your claim were true, we could save huge amounts of
    money by skipping all rigorous testing.

    --
    Matti Narkia

  13. Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:41:55 -0500 in article <[email hidden]> Mark

    Probert said:
    Matti Narkia said:

    Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:06:52 -0500 in article <[email hidden]>

    Mark Probert said:

    JanD wrote:

    >"Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    >news:[email hidden]...
    >
    >
    >>"montygram" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    >>news:[email hidden]...
    >>
    >>
    >>>First, I'd like to see a clear, concise definition of "alternative
    >>>medicine" that everyone can agree upon, which is unlikely. There are
    >>>
    >>
    >>Another word for "alternative" is untested.
    >>
    >>Robert
    >
    >
    >Please do tell us just exactly how much of conventional medicine has been
    >proven?

    All. Whether it be by rigorous testing, or experience of professionals,
    all.

    According to the article

    Sharon Kingman.
    Quality Control for Medicine.
    The New Scientist, 17 September 1994.

    only 20% of medical procedures had been rigorously tested at that time. Now
    the percentage is surely much higher, but hardly 100%. "Experience of
    professionals" does not count, because 1) alternative medicine practitioners
    can make exactly the same argument, and 2) even for experienced
    professionals it may be impossible to notice a difference between a real
    effect and a placebo effect, which is why randomized controlled clinical
    trials are needed.

    Oh, an dnot all "medical procedures" can be subjected to randomized
    controlled clinical trials.

    Name one, which cannot.

    --
    Matti Narkia

  14. "Mark Probert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    JanD said:

    "Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "montygram" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    >First, I'd like to see a clear, concise definition of "alternative
    >medicine" that everyone can agree upon, which is unlikely. There are
    >

    Another word for "alternative" is untested.

    Robert

    Please do tell us just exactly how much of conventional medicine has been
    proven?

    All. Whether it be by rigorous testing, or experience of professionals,
    all.

    DO SHOW US PROOF!

    Now don't forget!

    Quoted message said:


    Remember, AltMed goes from curious finding to sales without testing.

    Remember I said you LIE everyday.

    There are TWO LIES!

    You simply can NOT post without LYING.

    http://tinyurl.com/8qeg3

    [Advances of clinical studies of acupuncture and moxibustion for treatment
    of rheumatoid arthritis]

    [Article in Chinese]

    Suzuki S, Tian W, Li XW.

    College of Acupuncture and Moxibustion, Beijing University of TCM, Beijing
    100029, China. [email hidden]

    OBJECTIVE: To summarize recent development of studies on acupuncture and
    moxibustion for prevention and treatment of rheumatoid arthritis, so as to
    provide a basis and thinking for clinical scientific studies. METHODS: More
    than 60 papers about clinical and experimental studies were reviewed,
    choosing clinically commonly-used acupoints and introducing mainly different
    therapeutic methods. RESULTS: Acupuncture and moxibustion can prevent and
    cure rheumatoid arthritis with outstanding results. CONCLUSION: Acupuncture
    and moxibustion have vast vistas for treatment of rheumatoid arthritis.

    PMID: 16312903 [PubMed - in process] [Advances of clinical studies of
    acupuncture and moxibustion for treatment of rheumatoid arthritis]

    [Article in Chinese]

    Suzuki S, Tian W, Li XW.

    College of Acupuncture and Moxibustion, Beijing University of TCM, Beijing
    100029, China. [email hidden]

    OBJECTIVE: To summarize recent development of studies on acupuncture and
    moxibustion for prevention and treatment of rheumatoid arthritis, so as to
    provide a basis and thinking for clinical scientific studies. METHODS: More
    than 60 papers about clinical and experimental studies were reviewed,
    choosing clinically commonly-used acupoints and introducing mainly different
    therapeutic methods. RESULTS: Acupuncture and moxibustion can prevent and
    cure rheumatoid arthritis with outstanding results. CONCLUSION: Acupuncture
    and moxibustion have vast vistas for treatment of rheumatoid arthritis.

    PMID: 16312903 [PubMed - in process]

    http://www.sram.org/

  15. Matti Narkia said:

    Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:41:20 -0500 in article <[email hidden]> Mark

    Probert said:
    Matti Narkia said:

    Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:06:52 -0500 in article <[email hidden]>
    Mark Probert <[email hidden]> wrote:

    >JanD wrote:
    >
    >
    >>"Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    >>news:[email hidden]...
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>>"montygram" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    >>>news:[email hidden]...
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>First, I'd like to see a clear, concise definition of "alternative
    >>>>medicine" that everyone can agree upon, which is unlikely. There are
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>>Another word for "alternative" is untested.
    >>>
    >>>Robert
    >>
    >>
    >>Please do tell us just exactly how much of conventional medicine has been
    >>proven?
    >
    >All. Whether it be by rigorous testing, or experience of professionals,
    >all.
    >

    According to the article

    Sharon Kingman.
    Quality Control for Medicine.
    The New Scientist, 17 September 1994.

    only 20% of medical procedures had been rigorously tested at that time. Now
    the percentage is surely much higher, but hardly 100%. "Experience of
    professionals" does not count, because 1) alternative medicine practitioners
    can make exactly the same argument, and 2) even for experienced
    professionals it may be impossible to notice a difference between a real
    effect and a placebo effect, which is why randomized controlled clinical
    trials are needed.

    Experience of the professionals, IMNSHO, does count. The experience of
    well trained and educated physicians in using the medical procedures (a
    term which is not defined in the blurb you posted) on different patients
    in multiple settings is proof of effectiveness.

    I beg to disagree. If your claim were true, we could save huge amounts of
    money by skipping all rigorous testing.

    The claim is that only 20% of medical procedures have been rigorously
    tested. What percentage of what are now well accepted medical procedures
    pre-date the introduction of rigorous testing? What percentage of
    medical procedures are suitable for rigorous testing? What is the basis
    of the claim?

  16. Matti Narkia said:

    Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:41:55 -0500 in article <[email hidden]> Mark

    Probert said:
    Matti Narkia said:

    Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:06:52 -0500 in article <[email hidden]>
    Mark Probert <[email hidden]> wrote:

    >JanD wrote:
    >
    >
    >>"Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    >>news:[email hidden]...
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>>"montygram" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    >>>news:[email hidden]...
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>First, I'd like to see a clear, concise definition of "alternative
    >>>>medicine" that everyone can agree upon, which is unlikely. There are
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>>Another word for "alternative" is untested.
    >>>
    >>>Robert
    >>
    >>
    >>Please do tell us just exactly how much of conventional medicine has been
    >>proven?
    >
    >All. Whether it be by rigorous testing, or experience of professionals,
    >all.
    >

    According to the article

    Sharon Kingman.
    Quality Control for Medicine.
    The New Scientist, 17 September 1994.

    only 20% of medical procedures had been rigorously tested at that time. Now
    the percentage is surely much higher, but hardly 100%. "Experience of
    professionals" does not count, because 1) alternative medicine practitioners
    can make exactly the same argument, and 2) even for experienced
    professionals it may be impossible to notice a difference between a real
    effect and a placebo effect, which is why randomized controlled clinical
    trials are needed.

    Oh, an dnot all "medical procedures" can be subjected to randomized
    controlled clinical trials.

    Name one, which cannot.

    Surgery. If you can come up with a surgical placebo, you will be rich.

  17. JanD said:

    "Mark Probert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    JanD said:

    "Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    >"montygram" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    >news:[email hidden]...
    >
    >
    >>First, I'd like to see a clear, concise definition of "alternative
    >>medicine" that everyone can agree upon, which is unlikely. There are
    >>
    >
    >Another word for "alternative" is untested.
    >
    >Robert

    Please do tell us just exactly how much of conventional medicine has been
    proven?

    All. Whether it be by rigorous testing, or experience of professionals,
    all.

    DO SHOW US PROOF!

    Now don't forget!

    Quoted message said:

    Remember, AltMed goes from curious finding to sales without testing.

    Remember I said you LIE everyday.

    There are TWO LIES!

    You simply can NOT post without LYING.

    And, toots, you cannot post without abusing, stalking and harassing me.
    I was just surprised there was not religious slur, as you often do.

    Quoted message said:


    http://tinyurl.com/8qeg3

    [Advances of clinical studies of acupuncture and moxibustion for treatment
    of rheumatoid arthritis]

    [Article in Chinese]

    Suzuki S, Tian W, Li XW.

    College of Acupuncture and Moxibustion, Beijing University of TCM, Beijing
    100029, China. [email hidden]

    TCM = Traditional chinese medicine. Alt Med.

    Quoted message said:


    OBJECTIVE: To summarize recent development of studies on acupuncture and
    moxibustion for prevention and treatment of rheumatoid arthritis, so as to
    provide a basis and thinking for clinical scientific studies. METHODS: More
    than 60 papers about clinical and experimental studies were reviewed,
    choosing clinically commonly-used acupoints and introducing mainly different
    therapeutic methods. RESULTS: Acupuncture and moxibustion can prevent and
    cure rheumatoid arthritis with outstanding results. CONCLUSION: Acupuncture
    and moxibustion have vast vistas for treatment of rheumatoid arthritis.

    PMID: 16312903 [PubMed - in process] [Advances of clinical studies of
    acupuncture and moxibustion for treatment of rheumatoid arthritis]

    [Article in Chinese]

    Suzuki S, Tian W, Li XW.

    College of Acupuncture and Moxibustion, Beijing University of TCM, Beijing
    100029, China. [email hidden]

    OBJECTIVE: To summarize recent development of studies on acupuncture and
    moxibustion for prevention and treatment of rheumatoid arthritis, so as to
    provide a basis and thinking for clinical scientific studies. METHODS: More
    than 60 papers about clinical and experimental studies were reviewed,
    choosing clinically commonly-used acupoints and introducing mainly different
    therapeutic methods. RESULTS: Acupuncture and moxibustion can prevent and
    cure rheumatoid arthritis with outstanding results. CONCLUSION: Acupuncture
    and moxibustion have vast vistas for treatment of rheumatoid arthritis.

    PMID: 16312903 [PubMed - in process]

    http://www.sram.org/

  18. Mark Probert said:
    Matti Narkia said:

    Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:41:20 -0500 in article <[email hidden]>
    Mark

    Probert said:

    Matti Narkia wrote:

    > Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:06:52 -0500 in article
    > <[email hidden]>
    > Mark Probert <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >> JanD wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>> "Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    >>> news:[email hidden]...
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>> "montygram" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    >>>> news:[email hidden]...
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>> First, I'd like to see a clear, concise definition of "alternative
    >>>>> medicine" that everyone can agree upon, which is unlikely.
    >>>>> There are
    >>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Another word for "alternative" is untested.
    >>>>
    >>>> Robert
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Please do tell us just exactly how much of conventional medicine
    >>> has been proven?
    >>
    >>
    >> All. Whether it be by rigorous testing, or experience of
    >> professionals, all.
    >>
    >
    > According to the article
    >
    > Sharon Kingman.
    > Quality Control for Medicine.
    > The New Scientist, 17 September 1994.
    > only 20% of medical procedures had been rigorously tested at that
    > time. Now
    > the percentage is surely much higher, but hardly 100%. "Experience of
    > professionals" does not count, because 1) alternative medicine
    > practitioners
    > can make exactly the same argument, and 2) even for experienced
    > professionals it may be impossible to notice a difference between a
    > real
    > effect and a placebo effect, which is why randomized controlled
    > clinical
    > trials are needed.

    Experience of the professionals, IMNSHO, does count. The experience
    of well trained and educated physicians in using the medical
    procedures (a term which is not defined in the blurb you posted) on
    different patients in multiple settings is proof of effectiveness.

    I beg to disagree. If your claim were true, we could save huge amounts of
    money by skipping all rigorous testing.

    The claim is that only 20% of medical procedures have been rigorously
    tested. What percentage of what are now well accepted medical procedures
    pre-date the introduction of rigorous testing? What percentage of
    medical procedures are suitable for rigorous testing? What is the basis
    of the claim?


    That claim is fairly accurate and growing at a rate far greater than in
    the past. Generally known as evidence based medicine (EBM), more and
    more studies are contributing to what physicians "know for sure". Look
    for articles by Mark Chassin about quality in medicine.

    Bill B.

  19. Bill Braun said:
    Mark Probert said:
    Matti Narkia said:

    Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:41:20 -0500 in article
    <[email hidden]> Mark
    Probert <[email hidden]> wrote:

    > Matti Narkia wrote:
    >
    >> Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:06:52 -0500 in article
    >> <[email hidden]>
    >> Mark Probert <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>> JanD wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>> "Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    >>>> news:[email hidden]...
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>> "montygram" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    >>>>> news:[email hidden]...
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> First, I'd like to see a clear, concise definition of "alternative
    >>>>>> medicine" that everyone can agree upon, which is unlikely.
    >>>>>> There are
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Another word for "alternative" is untested.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Robert
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Please do tell us just exactly how much of conventional medicine
    >>>> has been proven?
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> All. Whether it be by rigorous testing, or experience of
    >>> professionals, all.
    >>>
    >>
    >> According to the article
    >>
    >> Sharon Kingman.
    >> Quality Control for Medicine.
    >> The New Scientist, 17 September 1994.
    >> only 20% of medical procedures had been rigorously tested at that
    >> time. Now
    >> the percentage is surely much higher, but hardly 100%. "Experience of
    >> professionals" does not count, because 1) alternative medicine
    >> practitioners
    >> can make exactly the same argument, and 2) even for experienced
    >> professionals it may be impossible to notice a difference between a
    >> real
    >> effect and a placebo effect, which is why randomized controlled
    >> clinical
    >> trials are needed.
    >
    >
    >
    > Experience of the professionals, IMNSHO, does count. The experience
    > of well trained and educated physicians in using the medical
    > procedures (a term which is not defined in the blurb you posted) on
    > different patients in multiple settings is proof of effectiveness.
    >

    I beg to disagree. If your claim were true, we could save huge
    amounts of
    money by skipping all rigorous testing.

    The claim is that only 20% of medical procedures have been rigorously
    tested. What percentage of what are now well accepted medical
    procedures pre-date the introduction of rigorous testing? What
    percentage of medical procedures are suitable for rigorous testing?
    What is the basis of the claim?


    That claim is fairly accurate and growing at a rate far greater than in
    the past. Generally known as evidence based medicine (EBM), more and
    more studies are contributing to what physicians "know for sure". Look
    for articles by Mark Chassin about quality in medicine.

    Bill B.

    I have no question that the 20% is accurate. I question the conclusions
    drwn by people. Most often, the 20% claim is used to infer that all the
    rest of medicine is equal to that of untested and unproven alternative
    medicine "treatments". That is not the case, as the 80% that is not
    proven by RCTs etc. is proven on the battlefield by educated and trained
    professionals who are able to discern what works and what does not. In
    Altmed, that is not the case. The two do not equate.

  20. Thu, 29 Dec 2005 16:39:28 -0500 in article <[email hidden]>

    Mark Probert said:
    Matti Narkia said:

    Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:41:55 -0500 in article <[email hidden]> Mark

    Probert said:

    Matti Narkia wrote:

    >Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:06:52 -0500 in article <[email hidden]>
    >Mark Probert <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >
    >>JanD wrote:
    >>
    >>>"Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    >>>news:[email hidden]...
    >>>
    >>>>"montygram" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    >>>>news:[email hidden]...
    >>>>
    >>>>>First, I'd like to see a clear, concise definition of "alternative
    >>>>>medicine" that everyone can agree upon, which is unlikely. There are
    >>>>>
    >>>>Another word for "alternative" is untested.
    >>>>
    >>>>Robert
    >>>
    >>>Please do tell us just exactly how much of conventional medicine has been
    >>>proven?
    >>
    >>All. Whether it be by rigorous testing, or experience of professionals,
    >>all.
    >>
    >According to the article
    >
    >Sharon Kingman.
    >Quality Control for Medicine.
    >The New Scientist, 17 September 1994.
    >
    >only 20% of medical procedures had been rigorously tested at that time. Now
    >the percentage is surely much higher, but hardly 100%. "Experience of
    >professionals" does not count, because 1) alternative medicine practitioners
    >can make exactly the same argument, and 2) even for experienced
    >professionals it may be impossible to notice a difference between a real
    >effect and a placebo effect, which is why randomized controlled clinical
    >trials are needed.
    >

    Oh, an dnot all "medical procedures" can be subjected to randomized
    controlled clinical trials.

    Name one, which cannot.

    Surgery. If you can come up with a surgical placebo, you will be rich.

    Absolutely false. First, we were discussing only randomized controlled
    clinical trials, not double-blind trials. Don't get confused with the terms.
    Any other treatment or even no treatment would serve as the control group's
    treatment, be it placebo or another, already tested procedure. Surgical
    treatments have been tested and should be tested in randomized controlled
    clinical trials. It's very hard to think of any procedure, which could not
    be tested in randomized controlled clinical trials, right now I cannot
    imagine any such procedure.

    Secondly, some surgical procedures have been tested even in double-blind
    trials. The control group would have a sham surgery, with similar incision
    as real surgery, or another already rigorously tested surgery with similar
    incision. But because even sham surgery always carries a small risk, perhaps
    sham surgery is not practical (although possible) in testing major surgical
    operations. But for small operations at least it may be sometimes feasible
    to do double-blind trial with sham surgery instead of mere randomized
    controlled trial.

    --
    Matti Narkia

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