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Allopath vs Holistic

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
16 July 2003
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21 July 2003
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Anth
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  1. In applying the techniques of healing, all health practitioners acknowledge
    a common truth: there exists just one science of human immunology, which
    possesses specific laws of biochemistry. In the professional of medicine,
    however two opposing factions or sets of practice principles prevail that
    often are contentious with each other. They are at odds. Disease oriented
    orthodox medicine and patient cantered holistic medicine agree only on the
    current facts of biochemistry and immunology but hardly on anything else.
    Disease oriented medical practice directs its efforts to finding the
    generalized formulas for treating types or classes of people who resemble
    one another in certain symptomatic respects. Its classification of patients
    into groups or categories is indispensable for finding a treatment to be
    used.
    For uncovering the therapy that works best, single or double-blind placebo
    controlled clinical trials are frequently employed. With a patient's
    physiology, whatever is found wrong, the allopathic (drug-using) physician
    attempts to correct the health problem with FDA approved pharmaceuticals,
    chemotherapeutics, surgery, immunotherapy, radiation therapy or other forms
    of high technology. Disease oriented medicine is a system primarily
    employing drugs in an attempt to produce effects in the body that will
    directly oppose and so alleviate the symptoms of the disease.
    Applying chemotherapy for cancer is the perfect example of disease oriented
    medicine in practice.
    Patient centered medical practice approaches its healing procedures by
    seeking out everything that can possibly be done to optimise the health of a
    given unique individual. An orientation like this, also defined as
    "functional medicine" by health professional educators

    An effort is made in patient centered medicine to accomplish three specific
    physiological restorations

    1 Harmonise the persons biochemistry
    2 Elevate the workings of a suppressed immune system.
    3 Rectify the malfunctioning of essential organs.

    (References from The Gerson Therapy 60 years of proven success)

  2. Quoted message said:

    Patient centered medical practice approaches its healing procedures by
    seeking out everything that can possibly be done to optimise the health of


    a

    Quoted message said:

    given unique individual. An orientation like this, also defined as
    "functional medicine" by health professional educators

    The "unique individual" approach means that no systematic knowledge is
    possible in medicine. There be no assurance or likelihood that any given
    measure will be effective for another person. There is no way the
    practitioner can ever build up a body of knowledge useful to his patients if
    patterns of illness, their causation and their response to treatment are
    not sought (and that is all that science does, using a variety of methods) .

    e.g. I ask you :" How does Gerson know his methods ---

    Quoted message said:

    1 Harmonise the persons biochemistry
    2 Elevate the workings of a suppressed immune system.
    3 Rectify the malfunctioning of essential organs.

    --if he is applying random trial and error methodology to each patient?"
    He can't. He does exactly what medical science does, and assumes that what
    works for one is likely to work for another.

    Gerson's rejection of systematic study is why he continued to believe in a
    method that has been clearly been shown to rarely, if ever, work.

    Peter Moran

  3. "Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Patient centered medical practice approaches its healing procedures by
    seeking out everything that can possibly be done to optimise the health


    of

    Quoted message said:

    a

    Quoted message said:

    given unique individual. An orientation like this, also defined as
    "functional medicine" by health professional educators

    The "unique individual" approach means that no systematic knowledge is
    possible in medicine. There be no assurance or likelihood that any given
    measure will be effective for another person. There is no way the
    practitioner can ever build up a body of knowledge useful to his patients


    if

    Quoted message said:

    patterns of illness, their causation and their response to treatment are
    not sought (and that is all that science does, using a variety of methods)


    ..

    Quoted message said:


    e.g. I ask you :" How does Gerson know his methods ---

    Quoted message said:

    1 Harmonise the persons biochemistry
    2 Elevate the workings of a suppressed immune system.
    3 Rectify the malfunctioning of essential organs.

    --if he is applying random trial and error methodology to each patient?"
    He can't. He does exactly what medical science does, and assumes that


    what

    Quoted message said:

    works for one is likely to work for another.

    Exactly, Gerson knew his methods from carefully observing people (after all
    he _was_ a respected MD)

    You can't be sure if your medicine is going to work or not in an individual.
    (This is a basic fact of both medicines)

    'The "unique individual" approach means that no systematic knowledge is
    possible in medicine'
    Good point, since every person is different with different problems, then
    how can I use the knowledge of person A to help person B?
    Leads to a circular argument - it implies that the information from person A
    is useless, so start again at B ad infinitum.
    I think the context used in the book was in relation to treating the whole
    person as opposed to treating the disease.

    Quoted message said:

    Gerson's rejection of systematic study is why he continued to believe in a
    method that has been clearly been shown to rarely, if ever, work.

    I disagree with you on that point - Gerson has never been through trials.
    As for the case studies. I think in there is always skeptical doubt, mainly
    because people are reviewed on single case basis or there is some other
    factor which can be shown to cloud the results. Thus comes to the ultimate
    "Did they just get well for no reason?" This leaves us in the murky middle
    of things with no definate "Yes" or "No" A detailed trial of the therapy
    would be useful here, then if it was shown to have some efficacy it would be
    surely become mainstream and a lot of heads would roll. Then again if it
    failed there would still be doubt and arguments, so in the end people lose
    again.

    Off Topic of Gerson but still in topic.
    The closest I have come across to efficacy in alternative is the Issels
    method (both Issels and Issels+conventional are compared), again more
    detailed trials would be needed and if it was shown to be effective it would
    go mainstream.

    Another major problem with alternative, it can only exist within its system
    until it has not been proven to be effective, then it changes its spots and
    goes mainstream. Basically from that point, branches of alternative medicine
    *simply evaporate*

    From this conclusion (I'm thinking I'm stating the obvious here) -
    alternative medicine is anything which isn't mainstream medicine.
    This means some rejected/failed/false methods also, so you could describe it
    as 'the compost heap' of mainstream medicine.
    Things are dumped on there and new things grow from it.
    Now I see why doctors/researchers show lurk in here?

    Quoted message said:

    Peter Moran

    Thanks for your input,
    Anth

  4. Would you lot say it is (un)ethical for a MD to suggest a treatment outside
    mainstream medicine for a terminal patient with no other hope in mainstream?
    (Even through there is some peer reviewed evidence which show promise?)
    I would see there would be a conflict with contracts and the MD in being a
    hypocrite if the MD did suggest it, but then again
    there's also the responsibilityy to the patient. Saving a persons life is
    surely morally better than being a hypocrite?.
    Would they simply stick to their oath and "do no harm"
    Any thoughts?
    Anth

  5. "Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Patient centered medical practice approaches its healing procedures by
    seeking out everything that can possibly be done to optimise the health


    of

    Quoted message said:

    a

    Quoted message said:

    given unique individual. An orientation like this, also defined as
    "functional medicine" by health professional educators

    The "unique individual" approach means that no systematic knowledge is
    possible in medicine. There be no assurance or likelihood that any


    given

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    measure will be effective for another person. There is no way the
    practitioner can ever build up a body of knowledge useful to his


    patients

    Quoted message said:

    if

    Quoted message said:

    patterns of illness, their causation and their response to treatment


    are

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    not sought (and that is all that science does, using a variety of


    methods)

    Quoted message said:

    .

    Quoted message said:


    e.g. I ask you :" How does Gerson know his methods ---

    Quoted message said:

    1 Harmonise the persons biochemistry
    2 Elevate the workings of a suppressed immune system.
    3 Rectify the malfunctioning of essential organs.

    --if he is applying random trial and error methodology to each patient?"
    He can't. He does exactly what medical science does, and assumes that


    what

    Quoted message said:

    works for one is likely to work for another.

    Exactly, Gerson knew his methods from carefully observing people (after


    all

    Quoted message said:

    he _was_ a respected MD)

    You can't be sure if your medicine is going to work or not in an


    individual.

    Quoted message said:

    (This is a basic fact of both medicines)

    'The "unique individual" approach means that no systematic knowledge is
    possible in medicine'
    Good point, since every person is different with different problems, then
    how can I use the knowledge of person A to help person B?
    Leads to a circular argument - it implies that the information from person


    A

    Quoted message said:

    is useless, so start again at B ad infinitum.

    You've got it.

    Quoted message said:

    I think the context used in the book was in relation to treating the whole
    person as opposed to treating the disease.

    But holistic healers like to make claims like Gerson. They do not realise
    that the more airy fairy and difficult-to-observe they make their treatment
    effects the less likely we see it that they themselves can have any idea
    what they are acheiving. WHen they say a treatment "works" they are
    making exactly the same kind of judgement that is made in a clinical trial,
    only in an envinonment that is far less structured and more prone to error.
    The human mind will remember its last success after a hundred failures.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    Gerson's rejection of systematic study is why he continued to believe in


    a

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    method that has been clearly been shown to rarely, if ever, work.

    I disagree with you on that point - Gerson has never been through trials.

    They have published their outcome results for melanoma and ovarian cancer,
    the ones they presumably feel they have best response with. There is no
    clear evidence of treatment effect. All their melanoma patients with more
    advanced disease died, and the results with other stages are not exceptional
    in the untreated..

    Quoted message said:

    As for the case studies. I think in there is always skeptical doubt,


    mainly

    Quoted message said:

    because people are reviewed on single case basis or there is some other
    factor which can be shown to cloud the results. Thus comes to the ultimate
    "Did they just get well for no reason?" This leaves us in the murky middle
    of things with no definate "Yes" or "No" A detailed trial of the therapy
    would be useful here, then if it was shown to have some efficacy it would


    be

    Quoted message said:

    surely become mainstream and a lot of heads would roll. Then again if it
    failed there would still be doubt and arguments, so in the end people lose
    again.

    If we balance the actual evidence against the claims being made, or the
    impressions being given to patients by those promoting the treatments, we
    can have a fairly accurate idea of the situation with any alternative
    cancer treatment. You cannot hide repeated success stories.

    Quoted message said:


    Off Topic of Gerson but still in topic.
    The closest I have come across to efficacy in alternative is the Issels
    method (both Issels and Issels+conventional are compared), again more
    detailed trials would be needed and if it was shown to be effective it


    would

    Quoted message said:

    go mainstream


    ..t been proven to be effective, then it changes its spots and

    Quoted message said:

    goes mainstream. Basically from that point, branches of alternative


    medicine

    Quoted message said:

    *simply evaporate*
    From this conclusion (I'm thinking I'm stating the obvious here) -
    alternative medicine is anything which isn't mainstream medicine.
    This means some rejected/failed/false methods also, so you could describe


    it

    Quoted message said:

    as 'the compost heap' of mainstream medicine.

    More like the "leavings" of mainstream medicine.

    Quoted message said:

    Things are dumped on there and new things grow from it.
    Now I see why doctors/researchers show lurk in here?


    I think we are on the alert for something useful. The track record of AM
    in throwing up useful treatments is poor.

    Peter Moran

  6. I believe some sidetracking is going on generally with alternative
    treatments.

    http://www.bccancer.bc.ca/PPI/UnconventionalTherapies/GersonTherapy.htm

    "Coffee enemas remove potassium from the body and could cause potentially
    fatal electrolyte imbalances."(Cassileth)'

    How can this be true when the patient is uber supplemented with potassium
    salts?
    It could mean that some people doing enemas and not the Gerson therapy have
    had these results.
    So this statement is essentially scare mongering and irrelevant.

    "Some patients are also given castor-oil enemas and oral and/or rectal
    hydrogen peroxide and rectal ozone treatment. Forbidden foods include salt,
    oil, berries, nuts, drinking water and all bottled, canned, refined,
    preserved and processed foods. No aluminum utensils are used, and juices
    must be pressed."(Weitzman)

    Rectal hydrogen peroxide is not listed in my Gerson book as far as I can
    see.
    "Serious infections and deaths from electrolyte imbalance due to the use of
    coffee enemas have been reported." (CA) (Ontario)

    With Gerson (I doubt it) or without? (See above potassium)

    In 1989, British researchers visited the Gerson clinic and conducted a
    best-case review plus a psychological study of patients at the clinic. The
    researchers concluded that while a small number of patients showed
    improvements there was no evidence that the Gerson therapy provided
    significant physical benefit." (CA) (Reed)

    Which researchers and what review and how was it conducted?

    It did show a benefit but not 'significant'? What does this mean?

    It goes on an on for most treatments on there (similar with Barrets site),
    most of this information is useless imo.

    Does anyone do 'book swapping' on here or know where I can get access to the
    references quotes on the BC cancer site?

    (I don't want to pay for all these books)

    Also another thing - understanding clinical trials for dummies would be
    useful if anyone has suggestions.

    Anth

  7. Quoted message said:

    From: "Peter Moran"

    Who is an organized deaf dumb and blind member of *organized medicine.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    Patient centered medical practice approaches its healing procedures by
    seeking out everything that can possibly be done to optimise the health of


    a

    Quoted message said:

    given unique individual. An orientation like this, also defined as
    "functional medicine" by health professional educators

    The "unique individual" approach means that no systematic knowledge is
    possible in medicine. There be no assurance or likelihood that any given
    measure will be effective for another person. There is no way the
    practitioner can ever build up a body of knowledge useful to his patients if
    patterns of illness, their causation and their response to treatment are
    not sought (and that is all that science does, using a variety of methods) .

    e.g. I ask you :" How does Gerson know his methods ---

    Quoted message said:

    1 Harmonise the persons biochemistry
    2 Elevate the workings of a suppressed immune system.
    3 Rectify the malfunctioning of essential organs.

    --if he is applying random trial and error methodology to each patient?"
    He can't. He does exactly what medical science does, and assumes that what
    works for one is likely to work for another.

    Gerson's rejection of systematic study is why he continued to believe in a
    method that has been clearly been shown to rarely, if ever, work.

    Peter Moran

    ZZzz.

    http://www.gerson.org/g_therapy/default.asp

    Max Gerson treated many hundreds of patients and continued to develop and
    refine his therapy up until his death in 1959, at the age of 78. His most
    famous patient was Dr. Albert Schweitzer, whom Gerson cured of advanced
    diabetes when Schweitzer was 75. Schweitzer returned to his African hospital,
    won the Nobel prize, and worked past age 90. Schweitzer wrote "I see in Dr.
    Gerson one of the most eminent geniuses in the history of medicine."

    http://cis.nci.nih.gov/fact/9_7.htm

    Dr. Gerson's therapy first came to public attention in the 1930s as a treatment
    for a type of tuberculosis. Gerson therapy was later used to treat other
    conditions, including cancer. In a presentation before a Congressional
    subcommittee in 1946, Dr. Gerson estimated that about 30 percent of cancer
    patients treated with his therapy had a favorable response.

    http://www.gerson.org/g_therapy/case_studies.asp

    http://gerson-research.org/docs/WardPS-1988-1/

  8. "Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    The trouble is with the double blind studies the pharmaceutical
    companies use is that they pay other people to do them. They pick the
    ones that show up their product to the best advantage.

    Personally my theory which I think is right is the soil theory. The
    soil theory was the favoured theory of Beauchamp who was over ridden
    by Pasteur with the germ theory - which I don't think is right. Germs
    mutate and evolve and adjust to accommodate their environment. But the
    main thing about germs is that they are a product of their
    environment. There have been experiments done which can change a
    harmless bacteria to a deadly one by changing the medium in which they
    live. The word for this is pleomorphic as opposed to monomorphic which
    means they only have one state.

    Modern medicine is corrupted and has been set up to make money for the
    pharmaceutical companies. I believe it is based on a lie and that the
    true medicine is the body healing itself. The crux of the whole thing
    is that the bloodstream has to be purified - this is what I think.

    Also what I think is that there is a whole heap of propaganda that
    hasn't been tested properly which says otherwise. I could be wrong but
    nobody has shown me yet why I am or offered a theory which works. They
    SAY that conventional medicine is the answer but what has it ever done
    for me?
    Asthma is incurable, housedust allergies are incurable, tinnitus and a
    whole heap of conditions which the only remedy is pharmaceuticals.
    Yeah right! Pull the other leg it plays Jingle Bells.

    And the cures for cancer and all chronic diseases are always "just
    around the corner" despite he millions that get thrown towards
    research. Are we seriously expected to believe all this [censored]? While
    the incidence of chronic disease grows and grows, here we are in the
    21st century with still no cures for all these conditions. All the
    people with scientific degrees are straight-jacketed into following
    certain lines of research and if somebody comes up with a cure for
    something, they are ridiculed and discredited. And why? Because of the
    very profitable medical monopoly.

    "The planet is being controlled, to an alarming extent, by elites, or,
    as I call them, cartels. There are many cartels, but 7 are the most
    powerful. They evolve, they learn from one another, they both compete
    and cooperate. Unfortunately, the trend is more towards cooperation.
    These 7 cartels represent the following areas: GOVERNMENT, MILITARY,
    INTELLIGENCE, ENERGY, MONEY, MEDIA, AND MEDICAL.....I came to this map
    of cartels through my own research on the medical monopoly. That's
    where it started, in 1986.  .. Once you understand these cartel
    elites, you can begin to separate out information into loose layers of
    importance, as in, which layer of the control game are we talking
    about? Because it's all about layers. And at most layers, the
    players are forwarding agendas which they do not realize fit into
    higher and more destructive agendas."--Jon Rappoport
    http://www.whale.to/w/rappoport.html

    Carole
    http://www.austarmetro.com.au/~hubbca/pharm.htm

  9. "Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    I believe some sidetracking is going on generally with alternative
    treatments.

    http://www.bccancer.bc.ca/PPI/UnconventionalTherapies/GersonTherapy.htm

    "Coffee enemas remove potassium from the body and could cause potentially
    fatal electrolyte imbalances."(Cassileth)'

    How can this be true when the patient is uber supplemented with potassium
    salts?

    Personally, I can't see how any supplements with potassium salts can
    be any good without all the cellsalts of which there are 12.

    Sodium cellsalts including sodium phosphate and sulphate are very good
    at alleviating a lot of health problems. If you keep supplying only
    potassium it won't work. You also need to supply calcium, magnesium,
    silica and iron phosphate.

    All these people who talk about just one cellsalt and not the others
    ....it won't work. They have to be kept in balance and supplied as
    required. I don't think table salt is a proper source of sodium in the
    diet - doesn't do anything for me.

    Carole
    http://www.austarmetro.com.au/~hubbca/cellsalts.htm

  10. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Anth said:

    In applying the techniques of healing, all health practitioners acknowledge
    a common truth: there exists just one science of human immunology, which
    possesses specific laws of biochemistry. In the professional of medicine,
    however two opposing factions or sets of practice principles prevail that
    often are contentious with each other. They are at odds. Disease oriented
    orthodox medicine and patient cantered holistic medicine agree only on the
    current facts of biochemistry and immunology but hardly on anything else.

    Would that this were true! Unfortunately it's not. If you read the
    justifications put forth by various alties for various "holistic"
    therapies, you will all too often find demonstrably incorrect scientific
    "facts" and long discredited "theories" used as justification for why
    the therapy "works."

    [Snip]
    --
    Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
    |
    |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
    | inconvenience me with questions?"

  11. In article <[email hidden]>,

    (Jan) said:
    Quoted message said:

    From: "Peter Moran"

    Who is an organized deaf dumb and blind member of *organized medicine.

    Immediately going for the personal attack, Jan?

    How pathetic.
    --
    Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
    |
    |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
    | inconvenience me with questions?"

  12. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Peter Moran said:

    "Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I think the context used in the book was in relation to treating the whole
    person as opposed to treating the disease.

    But holistic healers like to make claims like Gerson. They do not realise
    that the more airy fairy and difficult-to-observe they make their treatment
    effects the less likely we see it that they themselves can have any idea
    what they are acheiving. WHen they say a treatment "works" they are
    making exactly the same kind of judgement that is made in a clinical trial,
    only in an envinonment that is far less structured and more prone to error.
    The human mind will remember its last success after a hundred failures.

    Correct. It's human nature to remember the successes and try to forget
    the failures when one is vested in a treatment. It is also human nature
    to attribute a better-than-expected clinical course to one's
    intervention, when one's intervention may have had nothing to do with
    it. There is also a serious selection bias in most of the "case series"
    presented by alt-med advocates.
    --
    Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
    |
    |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
    | inconvenience me with questions?"

  13. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Anth said:

    Would you lot say it is (un)ethical for a MD to suggest a treatment outside
    mainstream medicine for a terminal patient with no other hope in mainstream?
    (Even through there is some peer reviewed evidence which show promise?)

    Probably not. It would depend on the situation. As long as the treatment
    is relatively innocuous and not likely to cause harm, then I doubt it
    would be a problem in a terminally ill patient, even if it's not likely
    to do any good.

    [Snip]
    --
    Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
    |
    |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
    | inconvenience me with questions?"

  14. | Anth wrote in message...
    |
    | In applying the techniques of healing, all health
    | practitioners acknowledge a common truth: there
    | exists just one science of human immunology, which
    | possesses specific laws of biochemistry. In the
    | professional of medicine, however two opposing
    | factions or sets of practice principles prevail that
    | often are contentious with each other. They are
    | at odds. Disease oriented orthodox medicine and
    | patient cantered holistic medicine agree only on
    | the current facts of biochemistry and immunology
    | but hardly on anything else.
    | Disease oriented medical practice directs its efforts
    | to finding the generalized formulas for treating types
    | or classes of people who resemble one another in
    | certain symptomatic respects. Its classification of
    | patients into groups or categories is indispensable
    | for finding a treatment to be used.
    | For uncovering the therapy that works best, single
    | or double-blind placebo controlled clinical trials are
    | frequently employed. With a patient's physiology,
    | whatever is found wrong, the allopathic (drug-using)
    | physician attempts to correct the health problem
    | with FDA approved pharmaceuticals, chemotherapeutics,
    | surgery, immunotherapy, radiation therapy or other
    | forms of high technology. Disease oriented medicine
    | is a system primarily employing drugs in an attempt to
    | produce effects in the body that will directly oppose
    | and so alleviate the symptoms of the disease.
    | Applying chemotherapy for cancer is the perfect
    | example of disease oriented medicine in practice.
    | Patient centered medical practice approaches its
    | healing procedures by seeking out everything that
    | can possibly be done to optimise the health of a
    | given unique individual. An orientation like this,
    | also defined as "functional medicine" by health
    | professional educators
    | An effort is made in patient centered medicine
    | to accomplish three specific physiological restorations
    |
    | 1 Harmonise the persons biochemistry
    | 2 Elevate the workings of a suppressed immune system.
    | 3 Rectify the malfunctioning of essential organs.
    |
    | (References from The Gerson Therapy 60 years of
    | proven success)
    |
    | ~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Anth,

    You write that “all health practitioners acknowledge
    a common truth: there exists just one science of
    human immunology, which possesses specific laws
    of biochemistry. “ This assertion is rather pointless.
    The existence of the science of immunology is not in
    dispute. It is the facts of that particular branch of
    medicine about which many alties are utterly ignorant.
    The assertion that cancer is the result of a weakened
    immune system demonstrates that ignorance. Since
    cancer develops within the body the immune system
    recognizes the cancer cells as “native cells” if you will
    and thus does not attack.

    In addition, there are many types of cancer. The failure
    to differentiate between the types is the hallmark of
    the ignorant quack. Consider again, if you will, cancers of
    the immune system. A weakened immune system is the
    RESULT of, not the cause of such cancers.

    You also write of “two opposing factions” in “the
    professional [sic]
    of medicine.” This is a mischaracterization of the conflict
    which is, in fact, between those who practice medicine based
    on sound training in the profession and those would practice
    medicine often times without learning the body of knowledge
    which comprises the profession.

    Patient centered care is a laudable goal and nurses are
    often
    at the forefront of such care but you speak of “disease
    oriented
    medical practice” as if that were a fault of medicine. You
    should
    know that people go to physicians because something
    motivates
    them; pain, discomfort or some physical change which causes
    them concern. The physician who fails to address the
    problem
    which drives the patient to seek his or her help will have
    an
    unsatisfied patient. And sometimes the physician cannot fix
    the problem. Alties focus on the failures of medicine to
    paint the practice of medicine as a failure.

    You write of “generalized formulas for treating types or
    classes of people who resemble one another in certain
    symptomatic respects” again as if that were something
    bad. The body of knowledge assembled from the practice
    of medicine is what makes medical advances possible. The
    profession builds on past knowledge.

    Placebo controlled clinical trials are certainly one tool
    the
    profession uses to build knowledge but they aren’t the
    only tool. How would you design a clinical trial for
    prosthetic hip replacement, for instance?
    Open experimentation with treatments must, of
    necessity, take place. But this is done, if it is done
    ethically, with the full informed consent of the patient.

    In my practice as a nurse I use a family centered model.
    The elements of which do resemble your “three specific
    physiological restorations” but in ways of which you may
    not be aware and which go well beyond your description.

    “Harmonize the persons [sic] biochemistry”? Yes, but in
    order
    to do so one must know in which way it is in disharmony.
    The biochemistry of humans is extraordinarily complex (as is
    that
    of most living things) and in the ICU we (the critical care
    team) focus
    on the biochemistry of the specific disease process we are
    treating.

    As for “elevat[ing] the workings of a suppressed immune
    system”
    this is most certainly a practice in the specialty of
    hematology/
    oncology where the immune system has been intentionally
    eradicated to treat certain cancers. But it is no simple
    matter
    and one can’t buy such treatments off the shelf at the local
    chemists’ shop. In addition medicine assists the immune
    system
    which might be overwhelmed by infection with the use of
    antibiotics.
    And in most cases the antibiotics (of which there are
    dozens) are
    chosen based on the specific organism causing (or suspected
    to be
    causing) the infection.

    Your third “physiologic restoration” , that of “rectify[ing]
    the
    malfunctioning of essential organs” is also a description
    of the
    practice of medicine. What is it you think specialists like
    pulmonologists, cardiologists or nephrologists do?

    So, it seems to me that your description of “patient
    centered
    holistic medicine” or "patient centered medical practice" is
    a
    fairly apt description of the profession of medicine.

    This has gotten rather long and so I’ll stop here though I
    could
    expand it even more. I would especially like to address the
    issue
    of "seeking out everything that can possibly be done to
    optimise
    the health of a given unique individual" and the specific
    ways
    the practice of nursing does this.

    If you’ve read his far I thank you for your patience with
    me.

    Regards,
    Snidely

  15. In said:

    From what I've read, most OTC supplements are not even absorbed efficiently
    by the body.

    Probably from someone trying to sell you "organic"
    potassium supplements. Here's some basic chemistry:
    potassium compounds dissociate just about 100% in
    water (or the GI tract) and potassium ion crosses
    into the bloodstream like lightning.

    There are nutrients which have bioavailability
    issues. Potassium, sodium, and other highly
    ionic materials aren't on that list.

    --
    | Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make |
    | it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay |
    | for new products or new versions of existing products." |
    end

  16. From what I've read, most OTC supplements are not even absorbed efficiently
    by the body.
    Anth

    "D. C. Sessions" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    In said:

    "Coffee enemas remove potassium from the body and could cause


    potentially

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    fatal electrolyte imbalances."(Cassileth)'

    How can this be true when the patient is uber supplemented with


    potassium

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    salts?

    Most potassium supplements (I have a drawer full) are about 90 mg
    per tablet. If you read the fine print, this is 3% of the FDA
    daily allowance, so you *could* meet your RDA of potassium by
    taking 30 or so of those supplements. That's about a $4/day habit
    just getting up to FDA par, which most alties insist is much too
    low for good health.

    I _profoundly_ doubt that most alties are "uber supplemented with
    potassium salts" compared to a normal diet.

    BTW, a potassium deficiency is utterly miserable. You just *hurt*
    in every muscle, especially the legs and especially at night.
    Sleep is nearly impossible.

    I found a cheap and much superior "alternative" to potassium tabs,
    though: Morton "Lite Salt." Easy to use, tasty, *cheap*.

    --
    | Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make |
    | it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay |
    | for new products or new versions of existing products." |
    end

  17. Hi
    I saw this a statement on the Issels site about vaccine

    Thousands of mice were used in Dr. Issels' microbiological department for a
    variety of studies. In one important study, 209 albino mice (which usually
    do not develop cancer) were subcutaneously inoculated with cell free
    mycoplasmas taken from cancer patients. A remarkable 90.9% of these test
    animals developed a wide variety of cancers, whereas only 0.83% of the 600
    control animals, which were not inoculated, developed malignancies.

    http://www.issels.com/vaccine.asp?pg=2

    This shows that a significant number of mice got cancer from these 'stealth
    pathogens' as opposed to the controls.
    (I.e. the cancers in these case were caused by the pathogens)
    Anth

    "Carole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:


    The trouble is with the double blind studies the pharmaceutical
    companies use is that they pay other people to do them. They pick the
    ones that show up their product to the best advantage.

    Personally my theory which I think is right is the soil theory. The
    soil theory was the favoured theory of Beauchamp who was over ridden
    by Pasteur with the germ theory - which I don't think is right. Germs
    mutate and evolve and adjust to accommodate their environment. But the
    main thing about germs is that they are a product of their
    environment. There have been experiments done which can change a
    harmless bacteria to a deadly one by changing the medium in which they
    live. The word for this is pleomorphic as opposed to monomorphic which
    means they only have one state.

    Modern medicine is corrupted and has been set up to make money for the
    pharmaceutical companies. I believe it is based on a lie and that the
    true medicine is the body healing itself. The crux of the whole thing
    is that the bloodstream has to be purified - this is what I think.

    Also what I think is that there is a whole heap of propaganda that
    hasn't been tested properly which says otherwise. I could be wrong but
    nobody has shown me yet why I am or offered a theory which works. They
    SAY that conventional medicine is the answer but what has it ever done
    for me?
    Asthma is incurable, housedust allergies are incurable, tinnitus and a
    whole heap of conditions which the only remedy is pharmaceuticals.
    Yeah right! Pull the other leg it plays Jingle Bells.

    And the cures for cancer and all chronic diseases are always "just
    around the corner" despite he millions that get thrown towards
    research. Are we seriously expected to believe all this [censored]? While
    the incidence of chronic disease grows and grows, here we are in the
    21st century with still no cures for all these conditions. All the
    people with scientific degrees are straight-jacketed into following
    certain lines of research and if somebody comes up with a cure for
    something, they are ridiculed and discredited. And why? Because of the
    very profitable medical monopoly.

    "The planet is being controlled, to an alarming extent, by elites, or,
    as I call them, cartels. There are many cartels, but 7 are the most
    powerful. They evolve, they learn from one another, they both compete
    and cooperate. Unfortunately, the trend is more towards cooperation.
    These 7 cartels represent the following areas: GOVERNMENT, MILITARY,
    INTELLIGENCE, ENERGY, MONEY, MEDIA, AND MEDICAL.....I came to this map
    of cartels through my own research on the medical monopoly. That's
    where it started, in 1986. .. Once you understand these cartel
    elites, you can begin to separate out information into loose layers of
    importance, as in, which layer of the control game are we talking
    about? Because it's all about layers. And at most layers, the
    players are forwarding agendas which they do not realize fit into
    higher and more destructive agendas."--Jon Rappoport
    http://www.whale.to/w/rappoport.html

    Carole
    http://www.austarmetro.com.au/~hubbca/pharm.htm

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