[email protected] (alison)

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (alison)

defibrillator question
2003/Oct/30 [email hidden] (alison)

My apologies in advance if this question is not approriate for this

Apologies accepted.

Quoted message said:

group, but I need a paramedic's expertise: I am a television writer.

Quoted message said:

a portable defibrillator and as climax approaches, holds one paddle above groin of the guy, the
other above her groin. Guy grasps her arm and she--with the defib on lowest power--hits the
button(s). Would they be able to withstand the shock?

Probably.

Quoted message said:

What kind of shock can a 9V lithium battery deliver? Comments welcome. Thanks in advance.

Pretty much as high as you want to go; several thousand volts is certainly possible if you don't
need much power output. If you give the capacitors enough time to charge and have a high-enough
transformer ratio, you could certainly kill someone with it if it went through their heart.

"David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What kind of shock can a 9V lithium battery deliver? Comments welcome. Thanks in advance.

Pretty much as high as you want to go; several thousand volts is certainly possible if you don't
need much power output. If you give the capacitors enough time to charge and have a high-enough
transformer ratio, you could certainly kill someone with it if it went through their heart.

No way dude. A 9V lithium battery would never charge the capacitors - the battery would be drained
well before they transferred any significant charge to the capacitors .

ron <[email hidden]> wrote:

: a portable defibrillator and as climax approaches, holds one paddle above groin of the guy, the
: other above her groin. Guy grasps her arm and she--with the defib on lowest power--hits the
: button(s). Would they be able to withstand the shock?

oh, god. i am *so* sure this has been done.

ryan .. can any of your nursing friends chime in on this one?
--
david reuteler [email hidden]

TimH said:

No way dude. A 9V lithium battery would never charge the capacitors - the battery would be drained
well before they transferred any significant charge to the capacitors .

Perhaps, but how about something like an automotive ignition coil. Upwards of 50kV. Might be
milliamps but it still hurts like hell.

--
Skuke Reverse the domain name to send email

In article <[email hidden]>, "TimH" <timh at nospam.com> says...

Quoted message said:

"David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What kind of shock can a 9V lithium battery deliver? Comments welcome. Thanks in advance.

Pretty much as high as you want to go; several thousand volts is certainly possible if you don't
need much power output. If you give the capacitors enough time to charge and have a high-enough
transformer ratio, you could certainly kill someone with it if it went through their heart.

No way dude. A 9V lithium battery would never charge the capacitors - the battery would be drained
well before they transferred any significant charge to the capacitors .

Yes way, dude. YOu put a dc-to-dc converter in front of some low- capacitance caps, and they will
charge as high as your converter will drive them. You are correct in that the total charge is
limited by the battery capacity, but there's plenty if you drain the entire battery's capacity in
one millisecond jolt.

--
Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

"David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, "TimH" <timh at nospam.com> says...

Quoted message said:

"David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

> What kind of shock can a 9V lithium battery deliver? Comments welcome. Thanks in advance.

Pretty much as high as you want to go; several thousand volts is certainly possible if you
don't need much power output. If you give the capacitors enough time to charge and have a
high-enough transformer ratio, you could certainly kill someone with it if it went through
their heart.

No way dude. A 9V lithium battery would never charge the capacitors -

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

battery would be drained well before they transferred any significant

charge

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to the capacitors .

Yes way, dude. YOu put a dc-to-dc converter in front of some low- capacitance caps, and they will
charge as high as your converter will drive them. You are correct in that the total charge is
limited by the battery capacity, but there's plenty if you drain the entire battery's capacity in
one millisecond jolt.

Your low capacitance caps aren't killing anyone. A short-lasting shock, but that's it.

TimH said:

"David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, "TimH" <timh at nospam.com> says...

Quoted message said:

"David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

>>What kind of shock can a 9V lithium battery deliver? Comments welcome. Thanks in advance.
>
>Pretty much as high as you want to go; several thousand volts is certainly possible if you don't
>need much power output. If you give the capacitors enough time to charge and have a high-enough
>transformer ratio, you could certainly kill someone with it if it went through their heart.
>

No way dude. A 9V lithium battery would never charge the capacitors -

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

battery would be drained well before they transferred any significant

charge

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to the capacitors .

Yes way, dude. YOu put a dc-to-dc converter in front of some low- capacitance caps, and they will
charge as high as your converter will drive them. You are correct in that the total charge is
limited by the battery capacity, but there's plenty if you drain the entire battery's capacity in
one millisecond jolt.

Your low capacitance caps aren't killing anyone. A short-lasting shock, but that's it.

No, David is correct that a small battery has plenty of electrical power to be fatal *if it is
properly delivered*. I'm not familiar with the specs on the suggested 9V Li cell, but let's take a
single alkaline AA cell as an example. These deliver about 2800 mA-hr of charge or around 4 W-hr of
electrical energy. Currents through the body reach the fatal level around 100 mA at which point
fibrillation of the heart occurs. The body has an internal resistance of a few hundred Ohms if the
surface resistance is reduced by use of large surface area paddles coated with conducting material.
So if we conservatively take the resistance to be 500 Ohms, we need 50 V to achieve the 0.1 A fatal
current (V = I x R) and the electrical power needed will be 5 Watts (50 V x 0.1 A). Our single AA
cell can deliver that level of power for almost an hour (4 W-hr / 5 W = 48 minutes) or enough time
to kill quite a few people. As David mentioned, we need some electronics to convert the electrical
output of the battery to a higher voltage (with DC-to-DC voltage converters) and some capacitors to
store the energy so it can be delivered more rapidly, but these components are readily available and
operate at high efficiency.

Normally we are fairly well protected from such fatal currents by the high resistance of our skin -
especially if it's dry. But the specified scenario employed electrode paddles which are deliberately
designed to minimize the skin resistance by making good electrical contact over a large area.

In article <[email hidden]>, "TimH" <timh at nospam.com> says...

Quoted message said:

"David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, "TimH" <timh at nospam.com> says...

Quoted message said:

"David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
> > What kind of shock can a 9V lithium battery deliver? Comments welcome. Thanks in advance.
>
> Pretty much as high as you want to go; several thousand volts is certainly possible if you
> don't need much power output. If you give the capacitors enough time to charge and have a
> high-enough transformer ratio, you could certainly kill someone with it if it went through
> their heart.
>

No way dude. A 9V lithium battery would never charge the capacitors -

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

battery would be drained well before they transferred any significant

charge

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to the capacitors .

Yes way, dude. YOu put a dc-to-dc converter in front of some low- capacitance caps, and they
will charge as high as your converter will drive them. You are correct in that the total charge
is limited by the battery capacity, but there's plenty if you drain the entire battery's
capacity in one millisecond jolt.

Your low capacitance caps aren't killing anyone. A short-lasting shock, but that's it.

If that shock goes through the heart, it can. Even a huge shock from a power line won't kill you if
it doesn't go through your torso.

--
Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

(ron) said:

My apologies in advance if this question is not approriate for this group, but I need a paramedic's
expertise:

Apology or not, I can't imagine what caused you to choose this group for this question. What makes
you think that people who gather to talk about derailleurs know anything about defibrillators?

Why would you post it to 4 seemingly random groups all at once? alt.firefighters misc.emerg-services
rec.bicycles.tech rec.nude Okay, at least the first two are places you might expect somebody to know
this stuff.

I went to groups.google.com to see if this was some sort of joke or spam, and found it posted
elsewhere too.

What's up with this one:
groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗

It appears that your newsreader may be really, really confused.

Actually, it appears that you may be a jerk. I see that in that message, you were actually
responding to the original post, but did not indicate that the original stuff was quoted, and that
your writing was separate, so it looks a bit like one stream-of-conciousness. In fact, your only
contribution was:

Quoted message said:

Try It On Yourself And You Will Find Out.

which came after your signature.

In your post here, you made it even harder to figure out that it was a quote -- you removed "wrote"
from the attribution line.

Maybe you're not a jerk; maybe you're a pervert. Jeff McCann offers a plausible explanation of why
you're posting this, in groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗
4-news.ops.worldnet.att.net

Another person in the same newsgroup has this to say:

Quoted message said:

So, Alison Nipar, you were named after 2 soap opera characters?

Sounds like you have the same problem [as suggested by Jeff McCann] as Alison, whom you
were quoting.

Quoted message said:

I am a television writer.

Quoted message said:

a portable defibrillator and as climax approaches, holds one paddle

<snip>

Sounds kinky. I might watch such a show. Care to tell us what show, and when we might see it?

Quoted message said:

A

--
Rick "Hope That Doesn't Help" Onanian