Afraid of LEFT turns

On 29 Mar 2005 10:02:23 -0800, "Martian Biker" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I'm thinking of biking to work. The most straightforward route
consists of one left turn on a busy street, on which most cars fly by
at 50+ mph.

I know I'm supposed to use hand signals whenever changing lanes, but I
still have the fear that my signals may not be understood by many
furious drivers in southern California. How would you overcome the
fear? Also, at such high vehicular speed, how far from the
intersection would you starting signaling?

I'm a true novice and would like to listen to your suggestions. Many
thanks!

Why not go to a crosswalk and walk the bike across the street for this one
turn? As you near the point of the turn, go to the right and walk the bike
on the sidewalk then cross the street and resume riding. Depending on the
specifics of the intersection, I've seen riders short-cut an intersection
by going to the left before the intersection, walking the bike up that
sidewalk and resumed riding on the turn street when there's a clear gap.

Alternately, don't go by the most straightforward route - find back streets
to get you to your destination, or make a right before you come to the left
turn, circle the block to the right, and enter the destination from the
straightaway.

As you can see there are many options available for the creative person.

jj

jj said:

On 29 Mar 2005 10:02:23 -0800, "Martian Biker" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I'm thinking of biking to work. The most straightforward route consists
of one left turn on a busy street, on which most cars fly by at 50+ mph.

I know I'm supposed to use hand signals whenever changing lanes, but I
still have the fear that my signals may not be understood by many furious
drivers in southern California. How would you overcome the fear? Also,
at such high vehicular speed, how far from the intersection would you
starting signaling?

I'm a true novice and would like to listen to your suggestions. Many
thanks!

Why not go to a crosswalk and walk the bike across the street for this one
turn?

I agree with jj on this one. Though I'm a veteran urban cyclist--there's
one interchange that I cross sometimes during rush hour where 80% of the
time somebody will forcefully cut you off. I'm not an advocate of cycling
on the sidewalk, but in this case I'll ride very slowly (3mph) through the
crosswalks to get my turning done or get off the bike if I'm not wearing
road shoes with cleats. I'm a confident rider--but sometimes you can sense
when something's truly dangerous. In my case I think it's exacerbated by
all the cars coming immediately off of a 80mph freeway--they're still in
high-speed hypnotic mode.

If there's a center lane or a turn lane, which you don't mention, then
signal a couple hundred feet ahead or so--I often use my index finger and
glance over my shoulder if I can to make eye contact, as if to say, "I'm
going THERE!"

Martian Biker said:

I'm thinking of biking to work. The most straightforward route
consists of one left turn on a busy street, on which most cars fly by
at 50+ mph.

I know I'm supposed to use hand signals whenever changing lanes, but I
still have the fear that my signals may not be understood by many
furious drivers in southern California. How would you overcome the
fear? Also, at such high vehicular speed, how far from the
intersection would you starting signaling?

On my way home, there's a left turn at the intersection of two busy
streets. IIRC, it's rated as one of the 5 worst intersections in the city.

If the lights and traffic are cooperative, then I make my way to the left
turn lane. When I move left, I usually do so near the beginning of the left
turn lane. And I move quickly, so that I spend as little time as possible
in the high-speed traffic lanes.

Most of the time, the lights and/or traffic are not cooperative, so I stay
to the right, cross one street with the light, turn left at the far corner,
and cross the other street with the light. Generally, if there are cars
(travelling at 40+ mph) close enough behind me so that I would need to
signal, then I stay to the right and cross each street separately.

BTW, you don't need to use hand signals when you need both hands to control
your bicycle. But as the person changing lanes, you're responsible for
doing so safely.
--
Darin McGrew, [email hidden], http://www.rahul.net/mcgrew/
Web Design Group, [email hidden], http://www.HTMLHelp.com/

"When strong encryption is outlawed, only outlaws jvyy hfr fgebat rapelcgvba."

Martian Biker said:

I'm thinking of biking to work. The most straightforward route
consists of one left turn on a busy street, on which most cars fly by
at 50+ mph.

I know I'm supposed to use hand signals whenever changing lanes, but I
still have the fear that my signals may not be understood by many
furious drivers in southern California. How would you overcome the
fear? Also, at such high vehicular speed, how far from the
intersection would you starting signaling?

I'm a true novice and would like to listen to your suggestions. Many
thanks!

Can you tell me, specifically, where you're talking about? Maybe I
know it, do it, can give a little more accurate advice.

As a general proposition, though: when I need to make a left at a busy
intersection I start signalling maybe 200' before the intersection,
use a combination of my mirror and head-turns, keep my left hand
extended straight out, then move cautious-aggressively, *trying* to
make eye contact and receive a physical "go ahead" from the driver
immediately in my path before moving.

It's a practiced thing. It'll *definitely* get easier.

*Bike to work.* You'll love it.

Neil
Pacific Beach, San Diego....

"jj" wrote: (clip) As you can see there are many options available for the
creative person.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
From your description, this is an intersection without signals or stop signs
for the oncoming traffic which you must cross. If that is true, then the
you must be making a left turn onto a minor cross street. What I sometimes
do under these circumstances is make a right turn, and then a U-turn, so I
can cross the traffic without having to "hover" in the
left-turn-holding-area. You might have to wait a while for a break in the
traffic, but you will be in a relatively protected place.

Yes, there is a turn lane on that busy street, which brings up another
question: if I am able to merge into the turn lane successfully, am I
supposed to occupy the middle of the lane (i.e., with cars behind me)
or just on the narrow white line that separates the turn lane from
regular lanes? The latter seems more satisfying for the driver's point
of view and makes it easier to me to stay right immediately after
turning, but it somewhat contradicts the spirit of behaving as a
regular driver.

I'm also thinking of biking to work. Going home and to work, I'll have
two left turns to make. Both will be without a light, going from a busy
road to a less busy road. Both will be "three way" (think T)
intersections. Both will be made from a two lane road with high traffic
during rush hour (I'm hoping one will be made during less traveled times)
to another two lane road. There's no turn lane. There's also no way to
re-route the trip to miss the turns. Both are going to be made from
relatively narrow roads. There are no crosswalks.

The only way I can figure out how to do these turns is to stop (on the
very small -- if any -- strip to the side of the road) and wait for clear
sailing in both directions, then turn.

--
Bob in CT

"Martian Biker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Yes, there is a turn lane on that busy street, which brings up another
question: if I am able to merge into the turn lane successfully, am I
supposed to occupy the middle of the lane (i.e., with cars behind me)
or just on the narrow white line that separates the turn lane from
regular lanes? The latter seems more satisfying for the driver's point
of view and makes it easier to me to stay right immediately after
turning, but it somewhat contradicts the spirit of behaving as a
regular driver.

I take the centre of the lane. I do _not_ want to give an auto-addict
thoughts about turning 'with' me.

--
'Oh lord!
Won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz?
My friends all drive Porsches as sung by:
I must make amends.' - Janis Joplin

Martian Biker said:

I'm thinking of biking to work. The most straightforward route
consists of one left turn on a busy street, on which most cars fly by
at 50+ mph.

I know I'm supposed to use hand signals whenever changing lanes, but

I

Quoted message said:

still have the fear that my signals may not be understood by many
furious drivers in southern California. How would you overcome the
fear? Also, at such high vehicular speed, how far from the
intersection would you starting signaling?

I'm a true novice and would like to listen to your suggestions. Many
thanks!

Left turns on busy high speed streets will always be a challenge. While
signaling for the turn is nice you need to remember that ultimately you
are responsible for your own safety and need to act accordingly.

You don't tell us the nature of this high speed street and the
intersection. How many lanes? Is there a traffic light? etc.

If there is a traffic light and you are nervous crossing high speed
lanes the easiest solution may well be to go straight through the
intersection, stop and then go through the other way with the lights so
that you never really are turning through the intersection.
While less protected I've even done this on corners w/o traffic
signals.

1oki said:

"Martian Biker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Yes, there is a turn lane on that busy street, which brings up another
question: if I am able to merge into the turn lane successfully, am I
supposed to occupy the middle of the lane (i.e., with cars behind me) or
just on the narrow white line that separates the turn lane from regular
lanes? The latter seems more satisfying for the driver's point of view
and makes it easier to me to stay right immediately after turning, but
it somewhat contradicts the spirit of behaving as a regular driver.

I take the centre of the lane. I do _not_ want to give an auto-addict
thoughts about turning 'with' me.

Yeah, I had that happen yesterday AND I was taking the lane. A Gray Line
tour bus honked at me and forced me into the should AS I WAS TURNING! What
an ass--what part of you don't pass anybody or anything in an intersection
didn't he understand? Especially with a CDL. When I caught up to the bus
after a few turns, there suddenly were two identical ones, so I didn't
know which number to call in--strategy right out of the Dukes of
Hazzard--wait, there's two General Lee's?! :P😉

I don't take the center, but slightly right of center, or sometimes
slightly left (pun alert) if I really want to take the lane. Comes from my
motorcycling experience--often the middle of a turn lane or intersection
can have a build-up of automotive drippage which you can slip on. Probably
not an issue in a seldom used turn lane on a high speed road--but an
essential thing to remember in the city.

"Martian Biker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm thinking of biking to work. The most straightforward route
consists of one left turn on a busy street, on which most cars fly by
at 50+ mph.

I know I'm supposed to use hand signals whenever changing lanes, but I
still have the fear that my signals may not be understood by many
furious drivers in southern California. How would you overcome the
fear? Also, at such high vehicular speed, how far from the
intersection would you starting signaling?

I'm a true novice and would like to listen to your suggestions. Many
thanks!

Here are some good links that discuss road riding safety techniques:

http://bicyclesafe.com/

http://www.bikexprt.com/streetsmarts/usa/index.htm

http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/traffic/accident.htm

As for your left turn - as you get close to it, you need to look for a gap
in the traffic flow. When a gap develops, signal and sprint for the left
turn lane. It's not always easy, however.

Another alternative is the right turn - u-turn approach. Sometimes that's
safe, and faster, depending on traffic flow.

--
~_-*
....G/ \G
http://www.CycliStats.com
CycliStats - Software for Cyclists

Martian Biker said:

I'm thinking of biking to work. The most straightforward route
consists of one left turn on a busy street, on which most cars fly by
at 50+ mph.

I know I'm supposed to use hand signals whenever changing lanes, but I
still have the fear that my signals may not be understood by many
furious drivers in southern California. How would you overcome the
fear? Also, at such high vehicular speed, how far from the
intersection would you starting signaling?

Is there a light at that intersection? If so, turn right, turn around,
and cross with the light. If not, maybe there is a protected turn (one
with a light) a bit further down.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | What is objectionable, and what is dangerous about extremists is
_`\(,_ | not that they are extreme, but that they are intolerant.
(_)/ (_) | --Robert F. Kennedy

David L. Johnson said:

Martian Biker said:

I'm thinking of biking to work. The most straightforward route
consists of one left turn on a busy street, on which most cars fly by
at 50+ mph.

I know I'm supposed to use hand signals whenever changing lanes, but I
still have the fear that my signals may not be understood by many
furious drivers in southern California. How would you overcome the
fear? Also, at such high vehicular speed, how far from the
intersection would you starting signaling?

Is there a light at that intersection? If so, turn right, turn around,
and cross with the light. If not, maybe there is a protected turn (one
with a light) a bit further down.

I think that's the safer option, turning right, or looking further down for
a protected turn, but forgive if I reiterate, it's always possible to find
safer routes - don't be constrained by a thought that you need to take the
same route as you take when driving.

You might even want to go out on a weekend when the traffic is lighter and
ride the route and look for safer options, or at least practice your left
turning with less pressure.

jj

jj said:

David L. Johnson said:

Martian Biker said:

I'm thinking of biking to work. The most straightforward route
consists of one left turn on a busy street, on which most cars fly by
at 50+ mph.

I know I'm supposed to use hand signals whenever changing lanes, but I
still have the fear that my signals may not be understood by many
furious drivers in southern California. How would you overcome the
fear? Also, at such high vehicular speed, how far from the
intersection would you starting signaling?

Is there a light at that intersection? If so, turn right, turn around,
and cross with the light. If not, maybe there is a protected turn (one
with a light) a bit further down.

I think that's the safer option, turning right, or looking further down
for
a protected turn, but forgive if I reiterate, it's always possible to
find
safer routes - don't be constrained by a thought that you need to take
the
same route as you take when driving.

I do not believe one can always find a better route. On my route, I'd
have to go significantly out of my way to provide a safer left turn. And
even then, I'd be going into a "circle of death" (a circle made to allow
traffic to flow around it and exit at certain spots). This might be worse
than trying a left at a bad intersection.

Quoted message said:

You might even want to go out on a weekend when the traffic is lighter
and
ride the route and look for safer options, or at least practice your left
turning with less pressure.

jj

--
Bob in CT

On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:14:43 -0500, "Bob M" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it's always possible to find safer routes - don't be constrained by a
thought that you need to take the same route as you take when driving.

I do not believe one can always find a better route. On my route, I'd
have to go significantly out of my way to provide a safer left turn. And
even then, I'd be going into a "circle of death" (a circle made to allow
traffic to flow around it and exit at certain spots). This might be worse
than trying a left at a bad intersection.

Oh yeah, those are bad. Then it's probably best to turn right, U-turn and
then go straight through. What's the name of the road and location so we
can look it up in mappoint?

jj

The intersection that I'm referring to is Katella and Seal Beach Blvd
in Orange County. Both streets have 3 regular wide lanes and both have
50 mph posted speed limit (so, I'd expect the actual vehicular speed is
in excess of 55 mph). There are lights and dedicated turn lanes on
both streets at the intersection.

I think part of my problem is my inexperience. When vehicles move at
55+ mph, I must look for a pretty long traffic gap in the flow (as
GaryG pointed out) one lane at a time in order to change lanes safely.
However, such long gap also means I have to get visual confirmation
from the drivers at far distance -- something that is still difficult
for me.

I like the idea of turning right followed by a U-turn. I will look up
the area today to see how far I must ride before I could do a U-turn on
Katella.

To me the safest route is the route that has the least number of left
turns. Oh yeah I will ride through a not-so-safe neighborhood but I
think it's OK as long as I keep my tires properly inflated to avoid
having flats over there.

I did try out the route on a weekend. My palms sweated a little bit
afterwards, but it was a great aerobic workout.

On 29 Mar 2005 14:28:54 -0800, "Martian Biker" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

The intersection that I'm referring to is Katella and Seal Beach Blvd
in Orange County. Both streets have 3 regular wide lanes and both have
50 mph posted speed limit (so, I'd expect the actual vehicular speed is
in excess of 55 mph). There are lights and dedicated turn lanes on
both streets at the intersection.

Yeah I can see where that would be daunting. Seems to me you could turn on
Florista Street and enter Katella via Pine or Reagan when there's a gap in
traffic flow - unless of course it's a divided highway.

Quoted message said:

I think part of my problem is my inexperience. When vehicles move at
55+ mph, I must look for a pretty long traffic gap in the flow (as
GaryG pointed out) one lane at a time in order to change lanes safely.

Certainly part of it is experience, but I wonder if even experienced riders
don't do a bit of 'hoping and praying' crossing over on fast roads like
that. ;-) Though I don't mind taking a small chance like that once in a
while, this is apparently a route you'll be riding every day commuting.
Pick a solution that's the safest - you don't want a 'small risk' to catch
up to you some day.

Quoted message said:

However, such long gap also means I have to get visual confirmation
from the drivers at far distance -- something that is still difficult
for me.

Believe me, it's difficult for everyone at that speed! ;-) Beware of such
'visuals' - I've found that some people can look right at you and not see
you on a bike. Daydreaming or whatever.

Quoted message said:

I like the idea of turning right followed by a U-turn. I will look up
the area today to see how far I must ride before I could do a U-turn on
Katella.

Yeah, I always find it easier to line up at the back of the traffic and
ride straight through. Good luck!

jj

jj said:

On 29 Mar 2005 14:28:54 -0800, "Martian Biker" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

The intersection that I'm referring to is Katella and Seal Beach Blvd
in Orange County. Both streets have 3 regular wide lanes and both have
50 mph posted speed limit (so, I'd expect the actual vehicular speed is
in excess of 55 mph). There are lights and dedicated turn lanes on
both streets at the intersection.

Yeah I can see where that would be daunting. Seems to me you could turn on
Florista Street and enter Katella via Pine or Reagan when there's a gap in
traffic flow - unless of course it's a divided highway.

Oops, disregard that para. I think I'm reading the map wrong and that would
be another left turn or two. ;-(

jj