Advice re wheels please

FWIW. I love XTR rear derailleurs ...
 
When I was confronted with the cog-size limitations of the Ultegra 6503 rear derailleurs, I switched three of them to XTR rear derailleurs. Shortly thereafter (c2001), I belatedly (as far as my bank account was concerned!) deduced that the 11t upper pulley wheel was the impediment to Shimano's ROAD rear derailleurs using cassettes with touring-size cogs (i.e., MTB cassettes) ...
 
The pictured bike has Campagnolo 10-speed shifters + a 9-speed 11-32 Shimano cassette. Previously, I had an XTR rear derailleur and attached the cable using the hubbub.com alternate connection. Primarily for cosmetic reasons, I replaced the 9-speed XTR rear derailleurs with 10-speed Shimano ROAD rear derailleurs. The current rear derailleur (pictured) is a 10-speed 105 which has a direct-connect rear derailleur cable.
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The short derailleur hanger on the vintage Campagnolo rear dropout precludes using a larger cassette.
 
However, with a "normal" derailleur hanger (pictured below), I am able to use a 12-34, 9-speed cassette.
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I replaced the 11t upper pulley wheel on both 10-speed rear derailleurs to 10t pulley wheels.
 
BTW. If there is a clearance issue with a "stock" Shimano MTB rear derailleur & an 11-36 cassette then I suspect that an XTR rear derailleur with a 10t upper pulley wheel will be able to handle the 36t cog .

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by swampy1970 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]
Just to add - it also works well with Dura Ace 7900 STI levers too...
... and 7800 bar end shifters...
... as well as the 7800 STIs.
 
Not as supernaturally fast as a complete Dura Ace drive train (shifters, rear mech, cassette, chain, cables) but more than fast enough to change well even out of the saddle going hard. Then again, XTR is hardly rubbish... so it's no surprise really that it does shift well. I suspect that the very slight hesitations in shifting (and I mean almost imperceptably small) are due to the IRD cassette teeth design as well as the gaps between the teeth. Pitty a set of braces won't fix the latter :P Maybe more races will... 😉
 

Thanks swampy1970, excellent info [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
 
My friend said that the new Shimano 10spd cassettes (11-32, 11-34, 11-36?) definitely works with the XT M770 SGS RD and I suspect that they will also work with the XTR M970 SG/SGS RD [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
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Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by alfeng [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

FWIW. I love XTR rear derailleurs ...
 
However, with a "normal" derailleur hanger (pictured below), I am able to use a 12-34, 9-speed cassette.
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I replaced the 11t upper pulley wheel on both 10-speed rear derailleurs to 10t pulley wheels.
 
BTW. If there is a clearance issue with a "stock" Shimano MTB rear derailleur & an 11-36 cassette then I suspect that an XTR rear derailleur with a 10t upper pulley wheel will be able to handle the 36t cog .

Thanks alfeng, excellent info [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
 
Which model Dura Ace have you shown and is that a GS cage or a SS (short) cage?
 
To confirm, are you saying that if you change the 11t upper pulley wheel with a 10T (very inventive) the RD could accommodate a 32 or 34T sprocket [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
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Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by KLabs [IMG]cyclingforums.comgo quote.gifOpen ↗[/IMG]

Which model Dura Ace have you shown and is that a GS cage or a SS (short) cage?

 
That's a DA 7800 GS rear derailleur ...
 
The cosmetics of the 7800 parallelogram's outer plate appears to have varied from the one on the derailleur I have to models whose parallelograms have an outer plate with a contour which seems similar (at least, to me) to the outer plate on the first generation, 10-speed 105 & Ultegra rear derailleurs ...
 
If Shimano had maintained their designations used in the prior generations, the particular Dura Ace rear derailleur would have been referred to as a 7803.
 
To confirm, are you saying that if you change the 11t upper pulley wheel with a 10T (very inventive) the RD could accommodate a 32 or 34T sprocket [IMG]cyclingforums.comsmile.gifOpen ↗[/IMG]
 
Yes, Replacing the 11t upper pulley wheel on a Shimano rear derailleur with a 10t pulley wheel allows me (so, that means 'everyone'😉 to use an unauthorized, "touring"-size cog.
 
BTW. Adjusting the 'B' screw was also necessary on the bike which has the vintage Campagnolo rear dropout to achieve clearance for a 32t cog (if you look at the picture, you may be able to notice that the front of the parallelogram is pointed slightly downward) -- contending with a vintage Campagnolo rear dropout is not a problem for most people.

Thanks Alfeng, excellent info [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
 
Why do you like XTR RD's so much [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

I guess I should clarify-and-limit my statement by saying I love the RD-M950 & RD-M952 versions of the XTR rear derailleur (c1998 to c2002) -- the 8-speed & 9-speed versions of the same rear derailleur, respectively. The 8-speed had 10t pulley wheels & the 9-speed was updated with the 11t pulley wheels which were introduced with the 7700, 6500, & 5500 Shimano Road groups which had Octalink cranksets.
 
The 950 was available with SS, GS, and SGS cages. I don't know if the 952 was available with anything other than with an SGS cage. The 951 was a Rapid Rise variant.

IMO, the light weight of the Octalink-era XTR rear derailleurs made/(makes) it a suitable substitute for 9-speed Shimano Road rear derailleurs.

The Shimano XT (RD-M750) rear derailleur was a porky by comparison ...

However, the XT's comparatively robust nature & lower cost probably makes it a better derailleur for many MTBing conditions than an XTR rear derailleur.
 
There was a GS version of the 750 rear derailleur, but I think it was probably only available as a special order.

At the moment, the SLX is probably the best value for anyone setting up a MTB drivetrain ... it may only be available in a Rapid Rise configuration.

Thanks alfeng, but does that mean that you haven't actually used the XTR with a new 10spd cassette? [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

You guess might be right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KLabs [IMG]cyclingforums.comgo quote.gifOpen ↗[/IMG]

Thanks alfeng, but does that mean that you haven't actually used the XTR with a new 10spd cassette? [IMG]cyclingforums.comsmile.gifOpen ↗[/IMG]

Correct ...

But, as you are aware from this thread, apparently swampy1970 uses an XTR rear derailleur with a 10-speed IRD cassette ....

BTW. Clearly, my understanding of Shimano's rear derailleurs is apparently different from that of many others ...

• Now, I don't know if swampy1970 is amongst those who believe that there is NO DIFFERENCE between an 8-/9-speed Shimano rear derailleur and a 10-speed Shimano rear derailleur, but 'I' have previously stated that (at least, IMO!) there IS A DIFFERENCE in the geometry between the earlier Shimano rear derailleurs & the 10-speed Shimano rear derailleur ... so, if he is employing a direct-connect of the 9-speed XTR derailleur's cable then that may be why the shifting is not quite as good as the shifting with the 10-speed DA rear derailleur ... that is, ONE of the cogs in the stack is not being engaged.
  

Post-1998 Shimano cassettes have exceptionally forgiving cogs designed to expedite the downshifts ... Shimano did NOT patent the design.

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For the moment, I will presume that swampy1970 is not using the hubbub.com rear derailleur cable connection (pictured above) & consequently, he may actually be ghost shifting past one of the intermediate cogs & is only utilizing 9-out-of-10 cogs on his IRD cassette.

BTW2. While it may be possible to substitute a 10-speed rear derailleur for an older one, it is undoubtedly due to the floating upper pulley which will TRACK BACK to where the 8-/9-speed cog is located rather than because the geometry is the same. That is, the floating upper pulley wheel has created the illusion that the 10-speed Shimano rear derailleur is the same as those which have preceded it because it has been Shimano's philosophy to ensure backward compatibility with its rear derailleurs.
 
If swampy1970/(anyone) were to hubbub the rear derailleur cable on their 9-speed Shimano rear derailleur which I have demonstrated (to my satisfaction) is equivalent to a 10-speed Shimano rear derailleur, and vice-versa, then they would probably find that their 10-speed IRD cassettes would perform better with their 10-speed Shimano shifters than in the past ....

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If you don't want to hubbub a 9-speed Shimano MTB rear derailleur's cable, then 'I' think that you should probably WAIT until the 10-speed Shimano MTB rear derailleurs are available ... I presume that some will be available with the standard pull (vs. Rapid Rise).

Thanks alfeng, let me have a good read of what you have written (very nicely) and of hubbub [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

Hi All, I was wondering, other than about 20-30gms of weight, is their any difference between the Shimano Ultegra SL 6600 8/9/10 Speed (GS) Rear Derailleur and the Dura Ace 7800 10 Speed GS RD?

Also, can a 10T Campagnolo Jockey Wheel can replace an 11T Shimano Jockey Wheel, in the above RD cages?

thanks [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by KLabs [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Yes you are right oldbobcat, but the 11-34 cassette is a standard size ... just easier.

I have not done this yet, Swampy1970 has, but I plan too, The local Shimano fellow does not think that it will work [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/frown.gif[/IMG]

I will have another chat to a friend and get some model details and why he thinks it will work [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

Longest cage RD(even a so called '9s one), 10s 11-32/4/6 cogset and 10s STI, yes this will work fine. Not sure why the 'shimano guy' thinks it won't.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by KLabs [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Hi All, I was wondering, other than about 20-30gms of weight, is their any difference between the Shimano Ultegra SL 6600 8/9/10 Speed (GS) Rear Derailleur and the Dura Ace 7800 10 Speed GS RD?

Also, can a 10T Campagnolo Jockey Wheel can replace an 11T Shimano Jockey Wheel, in the above RD cages?

thanks [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

Not really and yes...

Thank Peter@vecchios [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by alfeng [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Alf you are correct. I'm using a 9 speed XTR (RD-M952), with standard cable routing on an IRD 10 speed cassette using Dura Ace 7900 STI brifters. Works just as well with 7800 brifters or bar-ends.

... and I am getting all 10 gears 😉

I did notice that it works better with the 7800 chain.

Well Peter@vecchios, swampy1970 and alfeng

I have bitten the bullet and I am going to try one of alfeng's suggestion ... that is the 11-32T cassette and GS RD c/w 10T pulley wheel. I spotted a DA7800 GS RD and a Token Tiramic 10T pulley set at a super special price. The DA7800 GS RD should match perfectly with my DA7800 STI, so all should be good [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

A question ... at a stretch, do you think it would be possible to use an 11-34T cassette?

Actually, I really like the sprocket spread on the 11-36T cassettes. I was looking at the 11-36T cassettes sprocket spread and thinking that I could ride sprockets 3-10 using the 52T chain ring and sprockets 1-7 using the 39T chain ring ... perfect (although sprockets 1 and 2 wouldn't get used that much, they would very nice and excellent to have for touring (for those > 12% plus, and especially 20% plus, inclines) !!!) [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG] I guess an 11-34 or 11-32 (or even an 11-28T) cassette would be sprockets 2-10 and sprockets 1-8 respectively?

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by swampy1970 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

I'm using a 9 speed XTR (RD-M952), with standard cable routing on an IRD 10 speed cassette using Dura Ace 7900 STI brifters. Works just as well with 7800 brifters or bar-ends.
... and I am getting all 10 gears 😉

I did notice that it works better with the 7800 chain.

Standard cable routing with a 9s RD and 10s STI, 10s cogset..., thought that didn't work.

Quote:Originally Posted by KLabs [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Yes you are right, but it's just simpler, because the cassettes come as 11-32/34/36.  Just like the road version 11 or 12-23/25/27/28.Â

U can also try the 12/28 remove two middle cogs and add a 30/32 and 34/36 at the end. The last 3 cogs would be 28, 30, 34 or 28, 32, 36 I've read some bad reviews about Ird cassettes...

Nearly got all the components I need [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

Finally got the 10 spd 11-32T cassette that I ordered late Nov 2010, so, I will let you know how it all goes, very soon [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]