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Advice on SRAM dualdrive/1:1 mechs

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UK and Europe
Published
2 January 2007
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20 February 2007
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Daniel Barlow
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  1. I'm charged with the maintenance of a Brox Compact that uses a SRAM
    3x9 DualDrive. Basically it's a three-speed hub with a 9 speed
    cassette stuck on the side, and a shifter that has a twist grip and a
    thumbshift integrated in the same unit: thus, can shift both gears
    with only one hand.

    However, the hub is not part of a wheel. The Brox has two chains: one
    running from the front of the boom where the chainring is, to the
    middle under the seat, and the second running back to the rear axle.
    The hub is under the seat too: it's driven by the front wheel and it
    has a sprocket bolted to its side that drives the rear wheel. What's
    the problem here? Ground clearance. It's very easy to ground the
    jockey cage against speedhumps, kerbs etc. This has bent the
    derailleur, and can't be doing the chain much good either.

    The picture at http://www.lfns.co.uk/images/bike/thamesfestival.jpg
    shows more or less how it's put together, if you can distinugish the
    metal bits from the shadows.

    So you're going to say "shorter derailleur" ... but wait, there's
    more. We need a shifter for the hub. If we continue with the
    integrated shifter (and it _is_ nice being able to do the whole thing
    with one hand), we're stuck with the SRAM 1:1 cable pull ratio, and
    they don't seem to make many mechs for that with a short cage. What
    you see is a "long" X7, I also have looked at a "medium" X9, but it's
    only about 10mm shorter. The only one they describe as having a
    "short" variant is the X0, which is kinda pricey, and not having
    actually seen it I don't know if it's _really_ short or if it's just
    another half inch, The cassette ratio is fairly close, and we only use
    one chainring, so there's no real need for a long cage.

    So I'm thinking (always dangerous)

    * is there a thumbshifter suitable for the hub that we could squeeze
    onto the same handlebar as a separate 1:2 twist grip unit in a
    reasonable ergonomic arrangement? Then we'd have a wider choice of
    mechs. I don't know if the hub cable pull is the same for other SRAM
    hubs or for others from other manufacturers

    * or maybe we'll stick with the SRAM stable, and invest in disposable
    gear hangers so that next time the cheap bit breaks before the
    expensive bit bends. But unless the rider has necessary mechanical
    aptitude to replace the hanger (on the road, in the dark) it lacks
    somewhat as a "get you home" option, and even then it's not really
    desirable.

    * other ideas? Most of the time we're riding it we find that the hub
    gear is far more useful than the derailleur anyway just because it
    shifts faster: we use the hub for starting up and most low/medium
    speed rinding, and the derailleur for fine-tuning on fast bits. Don't
    think we can afford a Rohloff, but maybe a Nexus or similar? It is
    nice to have a range of close ratios at around the 15km/h-20km/h
    speed, though, otherwise it's hard work keeping up with the skaters.

    Budget rather depends on whether we're talking about one-off costs or
    disposable items: if it takes £100 or so to fix it properly that's
    fine, but I don't want to be paying £60/pop for items that will get
    bent on traffic calming features every couple of months.

    What does the panel think?

    -dan

    --
    http://www.coruskate.net/

  2. On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 13:45:47 +0000, Daniel Barlow <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    I'm charged with the maintenance of a Brox Compact that uses a SRAM
    3x9 DualDrive. Basically it's a three-speed hub with a 9 speed
    cassette stuck on the side, and a shifter that has a twist grip and a
    thumbshift integrated in the same unit: thus, can shift both gears
    with only one hand.

    However, the hub is not part of a wheel. The Brox has two chains: one
    running from the front of the boom where the chainring is, to the
    middle under the seat, and the second running back to the rear axle.
    The hub is under the seat too: it's driven by the front wheel and it
    has a sprocket bolted to its side that drives the rear wheel. What's
    the problem here? Ground clearance. It's very easy to ground the
    jockey cage against speedhumps, kerbs etc. This has bent the
    derailleur, and can't be doing the chain much good either.

    Doesn't strike me as the best of designs. The brox that is, not the
    dualdrive. Anyhow, you're stuck with it.

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    * is there a thumbshifter suitable for the hub that we could squeeze
    onto the same handlebar as a separate 1:2 twist grip unit in a
    reasonable ergonomic arrangement? Then we'd have a wider choice of
    mechs. I don't know if the hub cable pull is the same for other SRAM
    hubs or for others from other manufacturers

    What about the other way - put a bar end/down tube lever to shift the
    mech and keep the existing twist grip for the hub? My Sachs/Sram 3 x 7
    was made before the cleverness of the dual drive, so I've always
    operated it from two twist grips - one for the hub and one for the
    mech. I *think* the mech has a 1:2 pull though.

    Tim

  3. Daniel Barlow twisted the electrons to say:

    Quoted message said:

    * is there a thumbshifter suitable for the hub that we could squeeze
    onto the same handlebar as a separate 1:2 twist grip unit in a
    reasonable ergonomic arrangement? Then we'd have a wider choice of
    mechs. I don't know if the hub cable pull is the same for other SRAM
    hubs or for others from other manufacturers

    Well if you're prepared to sacrifice the "all on one hand" aspect, then
    there are DualDrive controls that are available as two seperate grip
    shifters (my Grasshopper is so equipped). Getting ahold of one of them,
    would enable you to change the derailleur and it's shifter to whatever
    you desired ... In fact, come to think of it, if you got some kind of
    thumb-shifter for the derailleur then you could maybe keep the "one
    handed" aspect?

    Quoted message said:

    * other ideas?

    Could you modify the Broxx so as to raise that section of the chainline?
    (Have to confess I've never given a close look to the Broxxi(sp?) that
    I've seen.) That could, if it's even possible, go right out the far side
    of your budget faster than the Rohloff option but it's the only other
    possibility I can think of ATM.
    --
    These opinions might not even be mine ...
    Let alone connected with my employer ...

  4. In article <[email hidden]>
    Daniel Barlow <[email hidden]> wrote:
    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    So you're going to say "shorter derailleur" ... but wait, there's
    more. We need a shifter for the hub. If we continue with the
    integrated shifter (and it _is_ nice being able to do the whole thing
    with one hand), we're stuck with the SRAM 1:1 cable pull ratio, and
    they don't seem to make many mechs for that with a short cage. What
    you see is a "long" X7, I also have looked at a "medium" X9, but it's
    only about 10mm shorter. The only one they describe as having a
    "short" variant is the X0, which is kinda pricey, and not having
    actually seen it I don't know if it's _really_ short or if it's just
    another half inch, The cassette ratio is fairly close, and we only use
    one chainring, so there's no real need for a long cage.

    So I'm thinking (always dangerous)


    Me too. :-) Why not just cut down the cage of the existing derailleur?
    Slice an inch out of the middle, and braze or hard solder the offcuts
    back on to hold it together.

  5. Tim Hall said:

    On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 13:45:47 +0000, Daniel Barlow <[email hidden]>
    wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    I'm charged with the maintenance of a Brox Compact that uses a SRAM
    3x9 DualDrive. Basically it's a three-speed hub with a 9 speed
    cassette stuck on the side, and a shifter that has a twist grip and a
    thumbshift integrated in the same unit: thus, can shift both gears
    with only one hand.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    * is there a thumbshifter suitable for the hub that we could squeeze
    onto the same handlebar as a separate 1:2 twist grip unit in a
    reasonable ergonomic arrangement? Then we'd have a wider choice of
    mechs. I don't know if the hub cable pull is the same for other SRAM
    hubs or for others from other manufacturers

    Quoted message said:

    What about the other way - put a bar end/down tube lever to shift the
    mech and keep the existing twist grip for the hub? My Sachs/Sram 3 x 7
    was made before the cleverness of the dual drive, so I've always
    operated it from two twist grips - one for the hub and one for the
    mech. I *think* the mech has a 1:2 pull though.

    The dualdrive on my 'bent works with two bar end shifters. The one for the
    hub has been modified so that it has one click for the middle gear, the
    other two gears are 'far in' or 'far out'. The middle one needs to be
    tuned right, that's what the yellow indicator on that box thingy is for.

    Roos

  6. in message <[email hidden]>, Daniel Barlow

    (') said:


    I'm charged with the maintenance of a Brox Compact that uses a SRAM
    3x9 DualDrive. Basically it's a three-speed hub with a 9 speed
    cassette stuck on the side, and a shifter that has a twist grip and a
    thumbshift integrated in the same unit: thus, can shift both gears
    with only one hand.

    However, the hub is not part of a wheel. The Brox has two chains: one
    running from the front of the boom where the chainring is, to the
    middle under the seat, and the second running back to the rear axle.
    The hub is under the seat too: it's driven by the front wheel and it
    has a sprocket bolted to its side that drives the rear wheel. What's
    the problem here? Ground clearance. It's very easy to ground the
    jockey cage against speedhumps, kerbs etc. This has bent the
    derailleur, and can't be doing the chain much good either.

    The picture at http://www.lfns.co.uk/images/bike/thamesfestival.jpg
    shows more or less how it's put together, if you can distinugish the
    metal bits from the shadows.

    So you're going to say "shorter derailleur" ... but wait, there's
    more. We need a shifter for the hub. If we continue with the
    integrated shifter (and it _is_ nice being able to do the whole thing
    with one hand), we're stuck with the SRAM 1:1 cable pull ratio, and
    they don't seem to make many mechs for that with a short cage. What
    you see is a "long" X7, I also have looked at a "medium" X9, but it's
    only about 10mm shorter. The only one they describe as having a
    "short" variant is the X0, which is kinda pricey, and not having
    actually seen it I don't know if it's _really_ short or if it's just
    another half inch, The cassette ratio is fairly close, and we only use
    one chainring, so there's no real need for a long cage.

    I think - but I'm not certain - that the new SRAM road mechs have the same
    pull ratio. If not, the X0 certainly does come in short cage - the one on
    Steve Pete's downhill bike looks just like a time trial derailleur; his
    cassette is very close ratio, about 12-21. But as you say, expensive.

    It might be worth seeing of the cage plates of the short-cage X0 are
    available as spares, since they'd fit on an X7. I run an X9 with X0 cage
    plates and jockey wheels cadged off the SRAM support mechanics at last
    year's mountain bike world cup.

    Quoted message said:

    * other ideas?

    Rohloff?

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    Anagram: I'm soon broke.

  7. Simon Brooke said:

    It might be worth seeing of the cage plates of the short-cage X0 are
    available as spares, since they'd fit on an X7. I run an X9 with X0 cage
    plates and jockey wheels cadged off the SRAM support mechanics at last
    year's mountain bike world cup.


    SRAM x9 now has a short cage option which might prove less expensive?
    http://www.sram.com/en/srammountain/components/x9/rearderailleur.php

  8. "Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> a écrit:

    Quoted message said:

    I think - but I'm not certain - that the new SRAM road mechs
    have the same pull ratio.

    Unfortunately they don't. Cable pull per shift is advertised as 3mm, and
    10spd cassette spacing is about 4mm.

    James Thomson

  9. Thanks for all the replies. Espeically to Simon, whose suggestion of
    mix'n'matching parts from the X0 set me to further browsing, and
    squeaker, for the headsup that the X9 has a short cage option. Either
    that's new for 2007, or I overlooked it in the SRAM service manuals.

    Having then noticed that the X9 super short is in stock at
    ChainReaction, that they have a nice big picture of it so I can see
    that it actually does exist and _is_ short (take note, other online
    retailers: more product information never ever hurts), and they have a
    tenner off, suddenly my credit card just creaked a little harder.

    I thought (fairly) long and hard about using this as an opportunity to
    get out of SRAMworld, but the more I went poking around for opinions
    on them the stronger the impression I got that people seem to like
    them a lot. And given that the riders of this crate aren't guaranteed
    to have much mechanical sympathy, I like the idea that the 1:1 will
    shift better with less fuss.

    Tim Hall:

    Quoted message said:

    Doesn't strike me as the best of designs. The brox that is, not the
    dualdrive. Anyhow, you're stuck with it.

    I'm curious: best in the "something else does the same job better"
    sense, or in the "redefine the job a bit" sense? It took us ages to
    get hold of a Brox and I think we're pretty happy with the basic
    premise. The bare frame is certainly heavy in comparison to say, an 8
    Freight (which I've also ridden in a very similar role), but by the
    time it's loaded up with car batteries and PA speakers it's really not
    that bad. And much easier to keep vertical when moving off at traffic
    lights. Can even ride it no-handed ;-)

    (Fortunately, I don't think there are pictures of me riding it while
    balancing on the boom. That got a whole lot more difficult since we put
    toeclips on it though ;-)

    -dan

    --
    http://www.coruskate.net/

  10. On Wed, 03 Jan 2007 17:29:15 +0000, Daniel Barlow <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    Tim Hall:

    Quoted message said:

    Doesn't strike me as the best of designs. The brox that is, not the
    dualdrive. Anyhow, you're stuck with it.

    I'm curious: best in the "something else does the same job better"
    sense, or in the "redefine the job a bit" sense?

    Sorry, poor use of words on my part. Certainly the Brox lookds ideal
    for what you want. It's just having the rear mech _that_ close to the
    ground (and the photo made it look very close) didn't seem ideal.

    Tim

  11. Participants may remember that a while back I asked for advice on SRAM
    1:1 mechs for a Brox compact: now that the bike is back on the road I
    thought you might like to see the photos ...

    Daniel Barlow said:

    I'm charged with the maintenance of a Brox Compact that uses a SRAM
    3x9 DualDrive. [...]

    There's a lot more work been done on it than just my messing with the
    drivetrain: all the construction on the back is new (and all of it's due
    to people who aren't me)

    http://www.lfns.co.uk/route.php/20070218/11
    http://www.lfns.co.uk/route.php/20070218/12
    http://www.lfns.co.uk/route.php/20070218/73
    http://www.lfns.co.uk/route.php/20070218/74

    As you can almost see in the last of those photos, it lights up in the
    dark, too :-) Sadly the "rocket tubes" provide no actual propulsive
    force, they're just subwoofers.

    Should be out again this coming Sunday - if anyone's in the
    neighbourhood of Hyde Park at around 2pm, come and say hi

    -dan

    --
    http://www.coruskate.net/

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