Advice for a New Start

What are you running in? Army boots? Get good shoes, because at 15
miles a week I doubt it was a stress fracture.

On 3 Aug 2005 15:01:08 -0700, "Andrew Reeves" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Howdy! I just recently found this NG, so I figured that it would be a
good forum to ask some questions that I've already asked on another
forum...

"A beginning is a very delicate time."

I will turn 29 this August 15. Between 1994 and 2003 I ran in three
marathons and an odd number of 10k's. Up until 1999, I generally ran 27
miles a week. Afterwards, I usually ran a fifteen mile week, running
five miles on Monday, Wednesday, and Fridays. I did not do much weight
training for my legs at this time (okay, I basically did none).

Such a routine was all well and good, but my flat feet and that I had
been running quite a lot for the five years I was in the Marine Corps
(1994-1999) gradually began catching up with me. In 2001, I got a
stress fracture in my right thigh which kept me off of my feet for the
better part of six months. Had that been the end of it, I would have
been fine, but it wasn't. In the summer of 2003, I got an adductor
strain in the right leg that took close to two months to heal. Then, in
October of that year I badly strained my right quad, which had me off
of my feet for another six weeks. The last and worst, though, came in
April of 2004, when I got a strain in the same adductor, a strain that
took from then until now to heal.

All of which is to say that I am starting back at the beginning when it
comes to running. After the first full pain free week (about a week or
so hence), I am going to start again, but with several realizations.
Most importantly, that the last injuries were all to muscle tissue
tells me that I must integrate a program of weight training in with my
runs. To do otherwise is simply to almost guarantee another injury.
Only slightly less important is that orthotics and motion control shoes
are essential. I also need to put more meat, eggs, and cheese in my
diet.

All of which is to say that I am rather at a loss for what sort of
routine I should do. The ideal end point for my running will be to be
going something like 20-30 ish miles a week, with at least one 7-12
mile run and a few other 4-6 mile runs. To get there, though, I also
need to fit in a schedule of weight training that also gives the
muscles sufficient time to heal.

Here, then, is where I am coming to this community for advice. What is
the best way to integrate weight training for legs and a week that will
start at around 4-6 miles and eventually reach 20-30 (with a weekly
increase of about 10%)?

TBR
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and
more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day
the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the
White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"Anyone with degrees from Yale and Harvard is presumed to be intelligent,
but George W. Bush has managed to overcome that presumption."

"Andrew Reeves" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I did not do much weight
training for my legs at this time (okay, I basically did none).

Most runners I know (including some national class guys), don't do weight
training. And they train quite hard.

Quoted message said:

In 2001, I got a
stress fracture in my right thigh which kept me off of my feet for the
better part of six months. Had that been the end of it, I would have
been fine, but it wasn't. In the summer of 2003, I got an adductor
strain in the right leg that took close to two months to heal. Then, in
October of that year I badly strained my right quad, which had me off
of my feet for another six weeks. The last and worst, though, came in
April of 2004, when I got a strain in the same adductor, a strain that
took from then until now to heal.

How did these injuries came about? Running, football, snowboarding, weight
lifting, ???

Quoted message said:

All of which is to say that I am starting back at the beginning when it
comes to running. After the first full pain free week (about a week or
so hence), I am going to start again, but with several realizations.
Most importantly, that the last injuries were all to muscle tissue
tells me that I must integrate a program of weight training in with my
runs.

That is anything but obvious to me, with the information you've given us.

I've pulled a couple of hamstrings, and had Achilles problems, and they
healed up just fine without any lifting. My experience is that tightness
coupled with bad luck (stepping on a moving rock, slipping in mud, etc), too
much too soon, or improper usage (e.g., sprinting full bore up stairs
without properly warming up) is the usual cause of a muscle injury.

I'd want to explore the cause of your injuries before deciding on a course
of action. (Please note that my only medical experience is as a patient!)

Quoted message said:

Only slightly less important is that orthotics and motion control shoes
are essential. I also need to put more meat, eggs, and cheese in my
diet.

Do you limit your diet in any way?

Quoted message said:

All of which is to say that I am rather at a loss for what sort of
routine I should do. The ideal end point for my running will be to be
going something like 20-30 ish miles a week, with at least one 7-12
mile run and a few other 4-6 mile runs. To get there, though, I also
need to fit in a schedule of weight training that also gives the
muscles sufficient time to heal.

In general the best way to start out is very slowly, mixing up walking and
jogging, over several weeks. Some people can get up to your goal in a
couple weeks, for some it takes a few months. Because you've been in
pretty good shape before, you might be tempted to start out too fast.
Resist the temptation.

If you go too fast, too soon, and do silly things like throw fast sprints in
before you're seasoned, you're asking for trouble.

Quoted message said:

Here, then, is where I am coming to this community for advice. What is
the best way to integrate weight training for legs and a week that will
start at around 4-6 miles and eventually reach 20-30 (with a weekly
increase of about 10%)?

There are a lot of muscles to work in the legs. Do you intend to exercise
all of them (glutes, adductors, TFL, piriformis, sartorious, quads, hams,
soleus, just to name a few?). The few I know who do leg weight work (in
prep for a 50 mile mountain race, for example) say that their legs are
pretty dead the day after a quad session.

If lifting won't make you any less vulnerable to injury, would you still do
it? Do you know that muscle weakness is the cause of your injury history?

-- Dan

The Bill Rodgers said:

What are you running in? Army boots? Get good shoes, because at 15
miles a week I doubt it was a stress fracture.

It was definitely a stress fracture, bad enough to be visible on
X-rays. The stress fracture hit right about when I decided that I'd
also do speed work on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

The shoes are the one part on which I have definitely learned my
lesson, which is why I now have both motion-controlled shoes and
orthotics. But it's the soft tissue that has me worried.

Andrew R.

Quoted message said:

On 3 Aug 2005 15:01:08 -0700, "Andrew Reeves" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Howdy! I just recently found this NG, so I figured that it would be a
good forum to ask some questions that I've already asked on another
forum...

"A beginning is a very delicate time."

I will turn 29 this August 15. Between 1994 and 2003 I ran in three
marathons and an odd number of 10k's. Up until 1999, I generally ran 27
miles a week. Afterwards, I usually ran a fifteen mile week, running
five miles on Monday, Wednesday, and Fridays. I did not do much weight
training for my legs at this time (okay, I basically did none).

Such a routine was all well and good, but my flat feet and that I had
been running quite a lot for the five years I was in the Marine Corps
(1994-1999) gradually began catching up with me. In 2001, I got a
stress fracture in my right thigh which kept me off of my feet for the
better part of six months. Had that been the end of it, I would have
been fine, but it wasn't. In the summer of 2003, I got an adductor
strain in the right leg that took close to two months to heal. Then, in
October of that year I badly strained my right quad, which had me off
of my feet for another six weeks. The last and worst, though, came in
April of 2004, when I got a strain in the same adductor, a strain that
took from then until now to heal.

All of which is to say that I am starting back at the beginning when it
comes to running. After the first full pain free week (about a week or
so hence), I am going to start again, but with several realizations.
Most importantly, that the last injuries were all to muscle tissue
tells me that I must integrate a program of weight training in with my
runs. To do otherwise is simply to almost guarantee another injury.
Only slightly less important is that orthotics and motion control shoes
are essential. I also need to put more meat, eggs, and cheese in my
diet.

All of which is to say that I am rather at a loss for what sort of
routine I should do. The ideal end point for my running will be to be
going something like 20-30 ish miles a week, with at least one 7-12
mile run and a few other 4-6 mile runs. To get there, though, I also
need to fit in a schedule of weight training that also gives the
muscles sufficient time to heal.

Here, then, is where I am coming to this community for advice. What is
the best way to integrate weight training for legs and a week that will
start at around 4-6 miles and eventually reach 20-30 (with a weekly
increase of about 10%)?

TBR
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and
more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day
the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the
White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"Anyone with degrees from Yale and Harvard is presumed to be intelligent,
but George W. Bush has managed to overcome that presumption."

Dan Stumpus said:

"Andrew Reeves" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I did not do much weight
training for my legs at this time (okay, I basically did none).

Most runners I know (including some national class guys), don't do weight
training. And they train quite hard.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

How did these injuries came about? Running, football, snowboarding, weight
lifting, ???

Just running. Well, that, and having flat feet and thus overpronating.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

All of which is to say that I am starting back at the beginning when it
comes to running. After the first full pain free week (about a week or
so hence), I am going to start again, but with several realizations.
Most importantly, that the last injuries were all to muscle tissue
tells me that I must integrate a program of weight training in with my
runs.

That is anything but obvious to me, with the information you've given us.

Well, I've read here and there (I don't have a cite handy) that weight
training is generally fairly useful for preventing injuries. That, and
I've noticed in upper body strenght training that making sure that all
supporting muscles are trained along with the main groups keeps
injuries from occuring.

Quoted message said:

I've pulled a couple of hamstrings, and had Achilles problems, and they
healed up just fine without any lifting. My experience is that tightness
coupled with bad luck (stepping on a moving rock, slipping in mud, etc), too
much too soon, or improper usage (e.g., sprinting full bore up stairs
without properly warming up) is the usual cause of a muscle injury.

I'd want to explore the cause of your injuries before deciding on a course
of action. (Please note that my only medical experience is as a patient!)

Just flat feet, and not waiting for long enough for a mild injury to
heal.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Only slightly less important is that orthotics and motion control shoes
are essential. I also need to put more meat, eggs, and cheese in my
diet.

Do you limit your diet in any way?

Nope. I generally keep to 2300-ish calories a day.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

All of which is to say that I am rather at a loss for what sort of
routine I should do. The ideal end point for my running will be to be
going something like 20-30 ish miles a week, with at least one 7-12
mile run and a few other 4-6 mile runs. To get there, though, I also
need to fit in a schedule of weight training that also gives the
muscles sufficient time to heal.

In general the best way to start out is very slowly, mixing up walking and
jogging, over several weeks. Some people can get up to your goal in a
couple weeks, for some it takes a few months. Because you've been in
pretty good shape before, you might be tempted to start out too fast.
Resist the temptation.

If you go too fast, too soon, and do silly things like throw fast sprints in
before you're seasoned, you're asking for trouble.

Yep. The kind of trouble that makes a mild strain that should heal in
about six weeks into a strain that sticks around for a year.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Here, then, is where I am coming to this community for advice. What is
the best way to integrate weight training for legs and a week that will
start at around 4-6 miles and eventually reach 20-30 (with a weekly
increase of about 10%)?

There are a lot of muscles to work in the legs. Do you intend to exercise
all of them (glutes, adductors, TFL, piriformis, sartorious, quads, hams,
soleus, just to name a few?). The few I know who do leg weight work (in
prep for a 50 mile mountain race, for example) say that their legs are
pretty dead the day after a quad session.

If lifting won't make you any less vulnerable to injury, would you still do
it? Do you know that muscle weakness is the cause of your injury history?

Well, I think that I would do it in general because it's just helpful
for strengthening the legs. Though honestly the only thing that I
really care about doing is running.

Quoted message said:

-- Dan

Good luck. I'd focus on taking it easy, and as mentioned, reacting quickly
if a small twinge arises. That's been my downfall more than once.

If you feet are flat enough to mess up your foot plant or you have chronic
knee pain, you might check out a sports podiatrist. In extreme cases
orthotics are the only thing that works.

-- Dan

On 3 Aug 2005 16:26:04 -0700, "Andrew Reeves" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

The shoes are the one part on which I have definitely learned my
lesson, which is why I now have both motion-controlled shoes and
orthotics. But it's the soft tissue that has me worried.

Figure eights, and running backwards=problem solved.

TBR
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and
more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day
the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the
White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"Anyone with degrees from Yale and Harvard is presumed to be intelligent,
but George W. Bush has managed to overcome that presumption."

On 3 Aug 2005 16:37:50 -0700, "Andrew Reeves" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Well, I've read here and there (I don't have a cite handy) that weight
training is generally fairly useful for preventing injuries. That, and
I've noticed in upper body strenght training that making sure that all
supporting muscles are trained along with the main groups keeps
injuries from occuring.

For me at least, upper body training and situps (situps before I run)
are a requirement for me to run injury free, so there's some truth in
that.

TBR
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and
more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day
the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the
White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"Anyone with degrees from Yale and Harvard is presumed to be intelligent,
but George W. Bush has managed to overcome that presumption."

Dan Stumpus said:

In extreme cases
orthotics are the only thing that works.

And this is starting to look like one of those...

TBR
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and
more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day
the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the
White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"Anyone with degrees from Yale and Harvard is presumed to be intelligent,
but George W. Bush has managed to overcome that presumption."

So, let me get this straight. You used to be an asswipe, but then you
quit for a while, and now you want to be an asswipe again?

"Andrew Reeves" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

What surfaces were you running on? How level and smooth were they? What %
were paved/concrete?

If you run on trails or grass regularly, your legs get a much different
workout than on a road. IMO, the strength training has maximum benefit for
road runners. Off-road, your legs get a more wholesome workout and the
weight training isn't very necessary. And just because lifting makes your
quads 'shot' doesn't mean it's bad for you, or that you'll not enjoy your
next run. It only means you have to be careful doing it prior to speed
workouts or races.

I've found good benefits from the strength training, particularly for your
quads and torso. The trick is you MUST add sufficient stretching during and
afterward, and not overdo the intensity of the weights.

If 20-30mi/week caused injuries for you, you might consider seeing a sports
podiatrist. IMO this is far from the last resort - rather, a podiatrist
with runner experience can be very insightful. I would suggest seeing one
sooner rather than later - for me, it was the best $500 out-of-pocket health
care I've ever spent.

Dave

David Geesaman said:

"Andrew Reeves" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

What surfaces were you running on? How level and smooth were they? What %
were paved/concrete?

Up until 2004, about half of the distance was on sidewalks to get to
the running trails and the other half on unpaved running trails. Once
I relocated, the nearest several miles of running trails are paved, so
it's mostly sidewalks and paved running trails.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

If 20-30mi/week caused injuries for you, you might consider seeing a sports
podiatrist. IMO this is far from the last resort - rather, a podiatrist
with runner experience can be very insightful. I would suggest seeing one
sooner rather than later - for me, it was the best $500 out-of-pocket health
care I've ever spent.

I now use orthotoics and the New Balance 1122 for motion control. I
want to make sure that I am covering every angle as I start back--hence
my question regarding the weight training as well.

Andrew R.

Quoted message said:

Dave

I always start lifting when Hercules appears in the sky. weather get
bearable better for my out side weight lifting area.
I am 50 + years and I am told on the decline ad need way more recover
time and my sights is more to God and my Lord Jesus Christ in the Holy
spirit.
Call it an age thing of my own search.
My Lord has downing me not to go to far on this as I do want to so he
binds me on injuries to sub stain me to read the good books ad fined the
? ode ancients.....
and not to tell of his missions. For I well never be a preacher more of
a ass wipe.

I my self can not do the heavy like 7 years ago as I was lawful. so I am
bound to light weight and being burn on last fridays 120 mile bike idle
now ( maybe small rides till I find myself again.) and 11 beers.Lance
and his Lets Drink some beer and I well buy it..stuck in my rush hour
traffic ride to Port Huron to jump in the lake.......some body owes me
$8.00....rec running.......
that was my new underwear money.......
How a 40 mile turns to 120 in Lets have a non train un and buy some
beer....O.KKKKkkkk dude sounds like a friday night to me. there go all
the fat reble bikers who try to get me my job butt Nooooo not the
manager and his wife who says I can't because his bosses says Not
him.what Oh I am sorry.Lord..and the Holy cross......Provide well you
do........ anyways since I am offcial over and this spirt is gone for
duration.......

I is a baby! that's right the white meat....

anyways meat is o.k. not just to much,
and no milk with it.......
the other other meat......

I say go for iT.weight training is O.K.......

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For The Riptide of The Length of The Hour,
Desire for Instruction ~ !

"Of the women, for riptide of length of the hour,
Desire of the instruction ~ Our duration,
Our knowledge of the face that, trunk of the chain,
This one or, where ~ Always given of control of The Dread
Of The Deade ~

Nevertheless of the breathing Of ~ I,
But always graduated, if you
Are simply here in this country, the cycle,
He read the memory due to you

Or I ~ Or, because you see flaunter, in The Ordered Order
To obtain, the ewes of nut, of the mother
Or this one writes ~

Verso, or Recto, this valuation
Of the protest Of ~ Nevertheless always
The breathing Of ~ Who I can die,
You open The Eternal Effect, always,

But only one section of it."
~ The Annotator

"Majorly, I warrant ye, and a readjustment of The Fore
Play Process,

O, too, a bottle of rum ~ !

The Story of O, O, that Fox, O,
My Fave ~ !"
~ Twittering

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~ Margaux

"Something Old,
Something Nouveau,
Something Bottled,
Some Arsenic & Old Blew Lace."
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"... and some Sparkling Pink Punchy Champagne
With Peppermint in a Waterford Goblet ~ !"
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The system needs revamping."
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By the way, seen Eileen ~ ?"
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That giddy grape?"
~ Kibbles

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~ dr P

"When Little Bo Peep's
Sheep nap."
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Trying to get me in the sack
Tonight ~ !"
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"Don't forget to put a condom on it."
~ dr P

"On what?"
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*

"Maybe twittering one will show us a
All how it's done
And we can be rid of his cluttering, idiotic posts once
& for all!

(Only of course if he's so inclined anyway
....not suggesting anything
Twit)"
~ Ann

"Illegal, Ann, to influence one toward suicide ~
No joking matter,
As far as I am concerned."
~ Twittering

"Ps.
Helpful Pearls of Wisdom
For the Healing Profession ~

Next time your patient tells you
She's suicidal,

Call back ~ !"
~ Twittering

"What's your expert opinion
Concerning ~~~~>

'Online Firing Range
Real Time online hunting and shooting experience.'"
~ Raving

"Famous last words ...

Andrew Reeves said:

Most importantly, that the last injuries were all to muscle tissue
tells me that I must integrate a program of weight training in with my
runs. To do otherwise is simply to almost guarantee another injury.

Not "weight training", or at least not the usual kind. The small
muscles and tendons that are typically injured in running are not
the ones that are strengthened by using Nautilus machines.

Look up "wobble board". A wobble board is used in physical therapy
to strengthen the small muscles and tendons that are typically
injured in a sprain. I use a round wobble board for a few minutes
each day.

http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=wobble%20board

Start easy.

Steve

You could listen to this jerk on his "wobbling board" or just buy free
weights.

Steve Hansen said:

Andrew Reeves said:

Most importantly, that the last injuries were all to muscle tissue
tells me that I must integrate a program of weight training in with my
runs. To do otherwise is simply to almost guarantee another injury.

Not "weight training", or at least not the usual kind. The small
muscles and tendons that are typically injured in running are not
the ones that are strengthened by using Nautilus machines.

Look up "wobble board". A wobble board is used in physical therapy
to strengthen the small muscles and tendons that are typically
injured in a sprain. I use a round wobble board for a few minutes
each day.

http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=wobble%20board

Start easy.

Steve

TBR
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and
more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day
the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the
White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"Anyone with degrees from Yale and Harvard is presumed to be intelligent,
but George W. Bush has managed to overcome that presumption."

Race Walking is not a bad way to go. I'm the same age as you, and
find it's good for the heart, the competition, but easy on your feet
and joints. I'm of average build, ran track in high school, but
started race walking in the last couple years as my flat feet started
to give me problems.

It's worth a shot, plus you can meet some interesting folks along the
way.

Marty

Race Walking is not a bad way to go. I'm the same age as you, and
find it's good for the heart, the competition, but easy on your feet
and joints. I'm of average build, ran track in high school, but
started race walking in the last couple years as my flat feet started
to give me problems.

It's worth a shot, plus you can meet some interesting folks along the
way.

Marty