Adventures in Meat Grinding

wff_ng_7 wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

But I'm still not sure what the correct method is, with how screwed up my
efforts were. Do you grind once and only once, with the large holed disk? Or
two passes, both with the large holed disk, or two passes, first with the
large holed disk and then with the small holed disk? I'm looking for a
result similar in texture to packaged ground beef at the supermarket.

Ask nimbnuts aka Shel--. He supposedly grinds all his own meats 😉

Quoted message said:

This particular batch of ground beef went into stuffed green peppers... the
classic recipe with a ground beef and rice filling, with tomato sauce. That
came out very good in spite of my grinding errors. I couldn't resist making
them... green peppers were on sale quite cheap this week (as was the bottom
round roast).

Seriously though, I'm glad you posted this. I'm looking at getting a
meat grinder so was wondering how it would work. I have a very good
butcher that will do meat up as I request. DH figures that we should
just let him do it and forget about the meat grinder.

Quoted message said:

wff_ng_7 said:

But I'm still not sure what the correct method is, with how screwed up my
efforts were. Do you grind once and only once, with the large holed disk? Or
two passes, both with the large holed disk, or two passes, first with the
large holed disk and then with the small holed disk? I'm looking for a
result similar in texture to packaged ground beef at the supermarket.

The large holed disk is for a coarse grind (often called a chili
grind). The small holed disk is for a finer grind like you
associate with supermarket ground beef.

Depending on your grinder and sharpness of the cutting blade, you
should be able to use just the small plate with one pass for a
fine grind. Instrcutions for inferior grind3ers will often tell
you to do two passes, one with the large grind and again with
either blade depending on your preferred grind.

To help with the sinew issue (and grinding), use partially frozen
meat (not so frozen that you couldn't cut it with your usual
knife).

Try sharpening your blade. It helps to make sure your disks are
ground perfectly flat and have sharp 90-degree corners where the
holes meet the surface of the disk. If you can get replacements,
get new stainless steel blades and disks.

-sw

"Steve Wertz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

wff_ng_7 said:

But I'm still not sure what the correct method is, with how screwed up my
efforts were. Do you grind once and only once, with the large holed disk?
Or
two passes, both with the large holed disk, or two passes, first with the
large holed disk and then with the small holed disk? I'm looking for a
result similar in texture to packaged ground beef at the supermarket.

Piggybacking, scuse me, Steve; the original post didn't show.

I have an Edwardian cast-iron tabletop mincer; there are two discs, one with
large circular holes and one with smaller, oval-ish ones. You use it with
both the discs fastened on, large holes on the inside, and the meat comes
out in the kind of thin "worms" you get in supermarket mince, which I think
is the same as USian ground beef. You never need to sharpen anything, and it
hasn't broken down in decades - possibly centuries 😉

Jani
(in a Luddite mood)

Steve Wertz said:

The large holed disk is for a coarse grind (often called a chili
grind). The small holed disk is for a finer grind like you
associate with supermarket ground beef.

Depending on your grinder and sharpness of the cutting blade, you
should be able to use just the small plate with one pass for a
fine grind. Instrcutions for inferior grind3ers will often tell
you to do two passes, one with the large grind and again with
either blade depending on your preferred grind.

To help with the sinew issue (and grinding), use partially frozen
meat (not so frozen that you couldn't cut it with your usual
knife).

Try sharpening your blade. It helps to make sure your disks are
ground perfectly flat and have sharp 90-degree corners where the
holes meet the surface of the disk. If you can get replacements,
get new stainless steel blades and disks.

I'm not sure if my grinder is inferior or not. I'm sure it's not the
greatest, based on the brand name. It's an Oster, and it's made in Japan.
I'd guess that today Oster stuff is [censored], but I'm not sure if that's true of
stuff they made about 40 years ago. The knife and disks don't look too bad
in terms of wear, but maybe they weren't that sharp to begin with.

Partially freezing the meat sounds like a good idea. I'll have to try that.

I'm not sure how much use this meat grinder got from my grandmother. I can
almost guess why she got it. Back in the 1960s, she got an early microwave,
the Radarange by Amana. I remember her showing it to us and cooking with it
in 1968. She cooked hamburgers for us, right on the bun. The flaw in the
plan is the typical ground beef at the market was rather fatty. If your
cooked the hamburger right on the bun, the fat soaked into the bun rather
than draining off. If she ground her own beef, she could make it much lower
in fat content. I suspect this is where the meat grinder came into the
picture.

--
( #wff_ng_7# at #verizon# period #net# )

wff_ng_7 said:

Yesterday I decided to try making ground beef myself using an old electric
meat grinder I inherited. I believe the grinder is about 40 years old. It
belonged to my grandmother, who passed away in 1973, and then my father, who
passed away in 2003. I don't know how much my grandmother used it, but I
know my father only used it once, around 1980, and then gave up on it. I
felt about the same way yesterday, frustrated and about to give up too!

I bought a bottom round roast, cut it up into chunks, and began. I'm sure it
helps if you read the instructions, but they were long gone. There were two
disks with holes, one with large, pie slice shaped holes, and one with small
round holes. For some reason, I thought the disk with the small round holes
was the one to use (probably faded memories of such a disk on the meat
grinder at the butcher years ago).

It didn't take too long for the grinder to get all clogged up with white
connective tissue. At this point I decided the disk with the large holes was
probably the one I should be using. So I took the small holed disk off,
cleaned things up a bit, and put the large holed disk on. I started grinding
again, but still ran into major clogging problems. I kept taking the disk
off and cleaning it, and finally finished running all the meat through once.
The results weren't the greatest... what a pain... this just isn't worth the
trouble!

Since the meat wasn't ground to my satisfaction in one pass, I ran it
through again. Part way through this second pass, I discovered the source of
my problems. When I changed disks from the small holed one to the large
holed one, the grinder "knife" fell into my output bowl. I found it in the
ground meat on my second pass. I was trying to grind with no knife in the
grinder. No wonder it wasn't working so well! ;-)

I put the knife back into the grinder where it belonged, what a difference
it made. The grinding went very smoothly with the large holed disk and the
knife installed. Too bad I didn't figure this out earlier, and too bad I
didn't start with the large holed disk.

But I'm still not sure what the correct method is, with how screwed up my
efforts were. Do you grind once and only once, with the large holed disk? Or
two passes, both with the large holed disk, or two passes, first with the
large holed disk and then with the small holed disk? I'm looking for a
result similar in texture to packaged ground beef at the supermarket.

This particular batch of ground beef went into stuffed green peppers... the
classic recipe with a ground beef and rice filling, with tomato sauce. That
came out very good in spite of my grinding errors. I couldn't resist making
them... green peppers were on sale quite cheap this week (as was the bottom
round roast).

FWIW, I use the larger holed disc on my Kitchen Aid meat grinder when I am
grinding meat and the smaller one for grinding seitan.

I never have to put anything through twice.

--
..:Heather:.
www.velvet-c.com
Step off, beyotches, I'm the roflpimp!

On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 00:32:19 +0100, "Jani" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I have an Edwardian cast-iron tabletop mincer; there are two discs, one with
large circular holes and one with smaller, oval-ish ones. You use it with
both the discs fastened on, large holes on the inside,

That sounds like a recipe for mush. I've never heard of such a
setup for a grinder. I guess you have to make perfectly sure all
the holes in the disks are all lined up ;-)

-sw

On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 23:48:12 GMT, The Bubbo <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

FWIW, I use the larger holed disc on my Kitchen Aid meat grinder when I am
grinding meat and the smaller one for grinding seitan.

I never have to put anything through twice.

I've never done two passes with the KA either. The hand-cranked
ones often recommend this in their instructions.

Tonight I used the small-holed disk for the Kitchenaid. I wish I
would have used the larger one. The small-holed disk was a little
too fine.

I made albondigas(*) with a mushroom cream sauce served over
buttered and parslied egg noodles. And a chunked avocado with
lemon juice, salt, and sriracha.

-sw
(*) OK, so the meatballs were "authentic", but the sauce isn't.

Steve Wertz said:

On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 23:48:12 GMT, The Bubbo <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

FWIW, I use the larger holed disc on my Kitchen Aid meat grinder when I am
grinding meat and the smaller one for grinding seitan.

I never have to put anything through twice.

I've never done two passes with the KA either. The hand-cranked
ones often recommend this in their instructions.

Tonight I used the small-holed disk for the Kitchenaid. I wish I
would have used the larger one. The small-holed disk was a little
too fine.

I made albondigas(*) with a mushroom cream sauce served over
buttered and parslied egg noodles. And a chunked avocado with
lemon juice, salt, and sriracha.

-sw
(*) OK, so the meatballs were "authentic", but the sauce isn't.

I only ever grind my own meat for hamburgers (because it's the only time I
ever use ground beef) and I like them with the bigger grind. Gives the burgers
good texture.

--
..:Heather:.
www.velvet-c.com
Step off, beyotches, I'm the roflpimp!

The Bubbo said:

FWIW, I use the larger holed disc on my Kitchen Aid meat grinder when I am
grinding meat and the smaller one for grinding seitan.

I never have to put anything through twice.

I get the feeling I wouldn't have had a problem if I just used the large
holed disk to start. But one thing that certainly doesn't work is the large
holed disk with no "knife" behind it. Having the knife fall out unbeknownst
to me did cause a problem. I do have to admit that I violated another "rule"
in this adventure. The one that says "don't operate machinery". You know the
one on the back of the liquor bottles... I had a good stiff drink before
starting this meat grinding operation! ;-)

--
( #wff_ng_7# at #verizon# period #net# )

wff_ng_7 said:

The Bubbo said:

FWIW, I use the larger holed disc on my Kitchen Aid meat grinder when I am
grinding meat and the smaller one for grinding seitan.

I never have to put anything through twice.

I get the feeling I wouldn't have had a problem if I just used the large
holed disk to start. But one thing that certainly doesn't work is the large
holed disk with no "knife" behind it. Having the knife fall out unbeknownst
to me did cause a problem. I do have to admit that I violated another "rule"
in this adventure. The one that says "don't operate machinery". You know the
one on the back of the liquor bottles... I had a good stiff drink before
starting this meat grinding operation! ;-)

in all my days I have never found anything of interest to read on the back of
a liquor bottle

--
..:Heather:.
www.velvet-c.com
Step off, beyotches, I'm the roflpimp!

Steve Wertz said:

On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 16:21:21 GMT, "wff_ng_7"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

To help with the sinew issue (and grinding), use partially frozen
meat (not so frozen that you couldn't cut it with your usual
knife).

This sprang to mind chez modom, too. Everything I've read or heard
(Alton Brown, Michael Ruhlman, etc.) indicates that thoroughly chilled
meat is the way to go.

I've used a hand crank grinder with enough success that I can't
complain. And I've used a Kitchenaid grinder attachment with
satisfactory results. I've never used a stand alone electric grinder,
however, so your experience may be at odds with mine.

--
modom

On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 02:47:56 GMT, The Bubbo <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

wff_ng_7 said:

The Bubbo said:

FWIW, I use the larger holed disc on my Kitchen Aid meat grinder when I am
grinding meat and the smaller one for grinding seitan.

I never have to put anything through twice.

I get the feeling I wouldn't have had a problem if I just used the large
holed disk to start. But one thing that certainly doesn't work is the large
holed disk with no "knife" behind it. Having the knife fall out unbeknownst
to me did cause a problem. I do have to admit that I violated another "rule"
in this adventure. The one that says "don't operate machinery". You know the
one on the back of the liquor bottles... I had a good stiff drink before
starting this meat grinding operation! ;-)

in all my days I have never found anything of interest to read on the back of
a liquor bottle

Yeah but GUI* can be serious legal trouble in some locales.

*Grinding Under the Influence

--
modom

On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 02:47:56 GMT, The Bubbo <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

in all my days I have never found anything of interest to read on the back of
a liquor bottle

The labels on Belgian beers are much more interesting. They seem
to have a fascination with Devils and delirium.

-sw

modom said:

Quoted message said:

in all my days I have never found anything of interest to read on the back
of
a liquor bottle

Yeah but GUI* can be serious legal trouble in some locales.

*Grinding Under the Influence

This wasn't the first time I got in trouble for GUI. Years ago when I had
several people over for dinner I had a similar experience, but with another
kind of grinder. After dinner, I was making coffee and used the coffee
grinder. Unfortunately in babbling with the guests, I forgot to put the
output bin on the grinder. It is phenomenal what a mess you can make in only
a second or so. There were coffee grounds everywhere. That is when one of my
guests jokingly mentioned the warning on the wine bottle: "Don't operate
machinery"! ;-)

--
( #wff_ng_7# at #verizon# period #net# )

~patches~ said:

wff_ng_7 wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

But I'm still not sure what the correct method is, with how screwed up my
efforts were. Do you grind once and only once, with the large holed disk? Or
two passes, both with the large holed disk, or two passes, first with the
large holed disk and then with the small holed disk? I'm looking for a
result similar in texture to packaged ground beef at the supermarket.

Ask nimbnuts aka Shel--. He supposedly grinds all his own meats 😉

Quoted message said:

This particular batch of ground beef went into stuffed green peppers... the
classic recipe with a ground beef and rice filling, with tomato sauce. That
came out very good in spite of my grinding errors. I couldn't resist making
them... green peppers were on sale quite cheap this week (as was the bottom
round roast).

Seriously though, I'm glad you posted this. I'm looking at getting a
meat grinder so was wondering how it would work. I have a very good
butcher that will do meat up as I request. DH figures that we should
just let him do it and forget about the meat grinder.

Quoted message said:

The main reason for grinding your own meats isn't so much to get the
exact grind or amount of fat, it's mostly a function of time. All the
surfaces of the meat that are exposed to the air begin to oxidize and
clearly once ground there is a lot more surface area exposed to this
oxidation. When you grind right before cooking you greatly limit this
oxidation.

If the butcher grinds the meat and quickly wraps it very well and you
take it home and get it cooking quickly it will probably be ok,
certainly better than a poorly wrapped package of ground meat that has
been sitting in the display case all day.

As for grinders, I use the regular KitchenAid grinder attachment on my
Hobart mixer and have not had any issues with it though my batch size is
usually fairly small. I would think any quality grinder would do just as
well since they are all pretty much the same.

Pete C.

Pete C. said:

The main reason for grinding your own meats isn't so much to get the
exact grind or amount of fat, it's mostly a function of time. All the
surfaces of the meat that are exposed to the air begin to oxidize and
clearly once ground there is a lot more surface area exposed to this
oxidation. When you grind right before cooking you greatly limit this
oxidation.

But isn't that what carbon monoxide treatment is for? ;-)

I guess the carbon monoxide treatment is more aimed at controlling color, as
it gets locked in. The meat remains saleable longer if it looks red. The
technique is directed at whole cuts of beef though, rather than ground beef.
Some ground beef isn't even sold in transparent packaging. I would have a
problem buying one of those big "logs" of ground beef in the white plastic
wrap with ground beef "artwork" on it, not knowing what it actually looked
like. But I'm never buying such large quantities anyway, so it's a moot
point.

--
( #wff_ng_7# at #verizon# period #net# )

wff_ng_7 said:

Pete C. said:

The main reason for grinding your own meats isn't so much to get the
exact grind or amount of fat, it's mostly a function of time. All the
surfaces of the meat that are exposed to the air begin to oxidize and
clearly once ground there is a lot more surface area exposed to this
oxidation. When you grind right before cooking you greatly limit this
oxidation.

But isn't that what carbon monoxide treatment is for? ;-)

I guess the carbon monoxide treatment is more aimed at controlling color, as
it gets locked in. The meat remains saleable longer if it looks red. The
technique is directed at whole cuts of beef though, rather than ground beef.

Yep, just color. I don't think it in any way prevents the oxidation
either since it just gets bound up in the hemoglobin and the rest of the
meat would still oxidize.

Quoted message said:

Some ground beef isn't even sold in transparent packaging. I would have a
problem buying one of those big "logs" of ground beef in the white plastic
wrap with ground beef "artwork" on it, not knowing what it actually looked
like. But I'm never buying such large quantities anyway, so it's a moot
point.

Actually those "logs", properly "chubbs" I think would probably be
better than the regular pack ground beef, at least in terms of
oxidation. I imagine those chubbs go directly from the grinder into the
plastic "sausage casing" which should protect them from oxidation far
better than a store grind and pack where they grind 50# of meat into a
tub, then portion it onto trays and then give it a fairly loose plastic
wrap.

Pete C.

Quoted message said:

--
( #wff_ng_7# at #verizon# period #net# )

Steve Wertz said:

Quoted message said:

Try sharpening your blade.

Grinder blades are self-sharpening

Quoted message said:

It helps to make sure your disks are
ground perfectly flat and have sharp 90-degree corners where the
holes meet the surface of the disk.

They're called plates, not disks... the average person has no way to
determine edge condition or to grind plates flat, not unless they have
access to a machine shop with a surface grinder... and that service
would typically cost more than to purchase new... and few shops are
capable of grinding small stainless steel parts, since surface grinders
rely on powerful magnets as a holding device.

Quoted message said:

If you can get replacements, get new stainless steel blades and disks.

No, no, no... do not arbitrarilly change blade/plate material before
contacting grinder company. Hardened tool steel is sharper and stays
sharper longer... there's no advantage to stainless steel grinder
plates/blades except that they don't rust, but carbon steel parts don't
rust very easily either. Regardless, never clean grinders or their
parts in the dishwasher. A couple drops salad oil will prevent rust on
grinder parts when not in use. Typically the hole bores of grinder
plates have a very rough finish. If one has access to a drill press
then purchase a lap to polish the internal surfaces of each hole, a
smoother finish inside the holes makes a HUGE difference when grinding
meats... also is a better way to sharpen plates... all the surface
grinding in the world won't make that hole edge any sharper than the
surface finish of that bore.... in fact there's a good chance of
grinding to a depth where the bore is rougher, making for an even
duller edge than the previous one.

Most machine tool supply companies will sell a single unit lap in the
size you specify, so you won't need to buy a set. Use lapping compound
on hardened materials only, never on relatively soft materials like
stainless steel.

http://www.nolansupply.com/bysubcategory.asp?category=Abrasives&supercategory=Laps&subcategory=XACT+USA+Made+Barrel+and+Blind+Hole+Laps+%2D+6+Piece+Set%26nbsp%3B&type=False&specs=True

In any event, for most folks it's much simpler and less expensive to
simply buy new plates/blades. Since I have access to a machine shop I
had my plate holes re-finished with a solid carbide step reamer.

Sheldon

On 11 Apr 2006 10:08:14 -0700, "Sheldon" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Steve Wertz said:

Quoted message said:

Try sharpening your blade.

Grinder blades are self-sharpening

[censored].

Quoted message said:

In any event, for most folks it's much simpler and less expensive to
simply buy new plates/blades.

Yeah - what I said.

-sw