Advanced Stop Signs

"Bob Downie" <BobMail@downie-geo#n0spam#.co.uk> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

How do you all do it?

Not that I meet many these days, but on the whole I'd treat them in the same
way as I used to treat traffic lit junctions before ASLs were invented:
Overtake the traffic in a suitable place, and position myself at the front.

I didn't worry about traffic starting to move, since a) I was pretty sure
when it was going to happen and b) I could cope by slotting in as
appropriate.

If eg there was a nice big gap to the left, of the queue, but I wanted to go
right, there were two options : if there's space on the right, take it, or
take the LH gap but be ready for things to change.

cheers,
clive

Bob Downie said:

First case, going straight ahead:

I would blame the drivers, because as you're making your way forward,
you'll see if any are turning left (in which case you'll follow them)
from looking at their indicators! ;o)

If you get to the front of the queue before the lights turn green,
you're in front of the cars so they will have to overtake you - they
would be foolish to do so if they're immediately turning left. Bikes
are often marginally quicker off the mark so you can get a metre or so
further ahead so it shouldn't be a problem.

Quoted message said:

Second case, turning right:

Good point, and I've been on the left hand side in a cycle lane with
ASL, wanting to turn right but not made it to the front in time. Based
on this I get in the right hand lane early so I don't get boxed in.

peter

Bob Downie said:

What with the consultation going on about saying that cyclists should
use cycle lanes where practicable, can anyone enlighten me as to how one
should use them in association with the advanced stop lines as
illustrated in the highway code part 154 (see
http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/16.htm).

Quoted message said:

From looking at the picture on the page you linked to, I think I'd be

stopped on the pavement having a look at that funny coloured stripey
bit of grass!

peter

"Bob Downie" <BobMail@downie-geo#n0spam#.co.uk> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

First case, going straight ahead: If you want to go straight ahead _and_
there is an exit to the left, it seems madness to me to try to ride to the
left of the cars that want to turn to the left. Even if the lights are at
red while you manoeuvre, chances are they will change before you get to
the advanced stop line and you will get cut-up. Frankly, I wouldn't blame
the drivers.

..

Quoted message said:

How do you all do it?
--
Bob Downie

ASLs make it even worse than normal if you are going straight on as all the
left turning considerate drivers stay well clear of the cycle lane on the
left thus blocking any cyclists going straight on from positioning
themselves correctly.
I really wish people would stop banging on about how cyclists need more
facilities and simply get rid of all these bothersome lines on the road.
Toby

Quoted message said:

Second case, turning right: You are cycling up to the lights in a cycle
lane. If you use the lane to get to the advanced stop line, you are on
the wrong side of the road to make a right turn. Are you supposed to
wheel your bike across the front of the traffic, hoping that the lights
don't turn while you are making this brave manoeuvre?

Simply, I find it much safer just to use the road lanes and markings
just as any other vehicle.

How do you all do it?

Not really sure why you're having the problem - you're not shackled to the
lane. When it's convenient just leave the left hand lane and go over to
the right hand lane as usual. If traffic is stationary, just make sure
you've done it before it all starts moving again.

Are you trying to enter the ASL the 'proper' way (i.e. *only* from the
cycle lane)? If so, stop being so silly! :-)

In message <[email hidden]>, Mark
Thompson <pleasegivegenerously@warmmail*_turn_up_the_heat_to_reply*.com>
writes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Second case, turning right: You are cycling up to the lights in a cycle
lane. If you use the lane to get to the advanced stop line, you are on
the wrong side of the road to make a right turn. Are you supposed to
wheel your bike across the front of the traffic, hoping that the lights
don't turn while you are making this brave manoeuvre?

Simply, I find it much safer just to use the road lanes and markings
just as any other vehicle.

How do you all do it?

Not really sure why you're having the problem - you're not shackled to the
lane. When it's convenient just leave the left hand lane and go over to
the right hand lane as usual. If traffic is stationary, just make sure
you've done it before it all starts moving again.

Are you trying to enter the ASL the 'proper' way (i.e. *only* from the
cycle lane)? If so, stop being so silly! :-)

That is what I am trying to explore. If you try to use the "facilities"
as we are encouraged to, sooner or later it will all end in tears.

What I am trying to get at is how would the "authorities" have us use
the ASL's and their associated cycle lanes.

--
Bob Downie
Downie GeoScience Ltd.
please remove #n0spam# to reply directly

Bob Downie said:

What with the consultation going on about saying that cyclists should
use cycle lanes where practicable, can anyone enlighten me as to how
one should use them in association with the advanced stop lines as
illustrated in the highway code part 154 (see
http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/16.htm).

Maybe its just me, but despite these years of cycling I find the
advanced stop lines a puzzler.

I share your concern if ASLs and their entry lanes were to be made
compulsary to use always, but that's quite different from never finding
them helpful and always puzzling. So I can't join in with a general moan
about ASLs because they're one of the very few cycling facilities that I
enjoy using.

Quoted message said:

First case, going straight ahead: If you want to go straight ahead
_and_ there is an exit to the left, it seems madness to me to try to
ride to the left of the cars that want to turn to the left. Even if
the lights are at red while you manoeuvre, chances are they will
change before you get to the advanced stop line and you will get
cut-up. Frankly, I wouldn't blame the drivers.

I can't bring to mind an ASL exactly like that now (with exit to left and
entry lane for going straight ahead on left too), but in general with
ASLs, you can often be sure there's time to get up to the ASL before the
lights turn green, like when you approach just after they've turned red,
or traffic is crossing (there being a gap after that stops and your
traffic light turns green).

Quoted message said:

Second case, turning right: You are cycling up to the lights in a
cycle lane. If you use the lane to get to the advanced stop line, you
are on the wrong side of the road to make a right turn. Are you
supposed to wheel your bike across the front of the traffic, hoping
that the lights don't turn while you are making this brave manoeuvre?

Simply, I find it much safer just to use the road lanes and markings
just as any other vehicle.

I find it safer to be in advance of the other vehicles whether there's an
ASL marked on the road or not!

Quoted message said:

How do you all do it?

Hang back if space or time is limited, otherwise put a bit of welly onto
the pedals and get on with it, disregarding the entry lanes if they're not
where I want them and overtaking on whichever side/lane seems best for the
time and place.

Basically I treat the junction just like any other similar one without an
ASL, except I more often go in advance of the other traffic because the
what I want to do (or at least the place where I end up) is legal and more
possible and convenient when there's more space.

But if an ASL is too risky to use, I don't use it. Simple as that. They
are optional, and I can't imagine any compulsion of them being enforced.

~PB

Bob Downie said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Second case, turning right: You are cycling up to the lights in a
cycle lane. If you use the lane to get to the advanced stop line,
you are on the wrong side of the road to make a right turn. Are you
supposed to wheel your bike across the front of the traffic, hoping
that the lights don't turn while you are making this brave
manoeuvre?

You can cycle accross. If you think the lights might turn green in the
process then you could wait there until they turn red again. Daft but
legal.

~PB

Bob Downie wrote:

[ASL's]

Quoted message said:

How do you all do it?

It seems to me that a lot of motorists ignore the ASL and stop at the
second line.

As for me it depends, sometimes I will just sit in the traffic and be
another road user, other times (particularly if a motorist has just cut
me up) I will make a point of going to the ASL.

--
Don Whybrow

Sequi Bonum Non Time

Invalid thought detected. Close all mental processes and restart
body.

Bob Downie said:

What with the consultation going on about saying that cyclists should
use cycle lanes where practicable, can anyone enlighten me as to how one
should use them in association with the advanced stop lines as
illustrated in the highway code part 154 (see
http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/16.htm).

Maybe its just me, but despite these years of cycling I find the
advanced stop lines a puzzler.

First case, going straight ahead: If you want to go straight ahead _and_
there is an exit to the left, it seems madness to me to try to ride to
the left of the cars that want to turn to the left. Even if the lights
are at red while you manoeuvre, chances are they will change before you
get to the advanced stop line and you will get cut-up. Frankly, I
wouldn't blame the drivers.

Second case, turning right: You are cycling up to the lights in a cycle
lane. If you use the lane to get to the advanced stop line, you are on
the wrong side of the road to make a right turn. Are you supposed to
wheel your bike across the front of the traffic, hoping that the lights
don't turn while you are making this brave manoeuvre?

Simply, I find it much safer just to use the road lanes and markings
just as any other vehicle.

How do you all do it?

the majority of ASL areas tend to be occupied by drivers with either or
both poor brakes or don't know how long their bonnet is, so it's not a
problem

--
"You can't see paradise if you don't pedal" (Fowler, Chicken Run)

Bob Downie said:

What with the consultation going on about saying that cyclists should use
cycle lanes where practicable, can anyone enlighten me as to how one
should use them in association with the advanced stop lines as illustrated

The little 'stub' cycle lanes at ASLs are a legal fig leaf.
I've even seen some so stupid, as in Greenwich near the Naval College
which ask cyclists to hop onto the pavement then enter the ASL from the
side.

The first stop line at an ASL applies to all vehicles.
So the only way a bicycle can get past this and enter the ASL is via the
stub cycle lane.
Ignore this and do what is needed to keep you safe.
As you say, it is dangerous and in fact lethal for a cycle lane to force
you into riding up the side of a left turning HGV.

And the chances of anyone being ticked off for not using the stub lane at
an ASL are none, zip, da nada.

John Hearns said:

And the chances of anyone being ticked off for not using the stub
lane at an ASL are none, zip, da nada.

But you still see POBs using them!

in message <[email hidden]>, Bob Downie

('BobMail@downie-geo#n0spam#.co.uk') said:

Maybe its just me, but despite these years of cycling I find the
advanced stop lines a puzzler.

First case, going straight ahead: If you want to go straight ahead and
there is an exit to the left, it seems madness to me to try to ride to
the left of the cars that want to turn to the left.

Oh, yes, the suicide lane... 'nuff said.

Quoted message said:

Second case, turning right: You are cycling up to the lights in a cycle
lane. If you use the lane to get to the advanced stop line, you are on
the wrong side of the road to make a right turn.

Aye. So you have to cut across the front of two lanes of accelerating
motor traffic. Most excellent.

Quoted message said:

Simply, I find it much safer just to use the road lanes and markings
just as any other vehicle.

Amen, brother.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Wannabe a Web designer?
<URL:http://userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/97dec/19971206.html>

John Hearns said:

Bob Downie said:

What with the consultation going on about saying that cyclists should use
cycle lanes where practicable, can anyone enlighten me as to how one
should use them in association with the advanced stop lines as illustrated

Routes where practicable, facilities where provided. So the HC will
require use of these feeder lanes.

Quoted message said:

The little 'stub' cycle lanes at ASLs are a legal fig leaf.

But better than a long lane in the wrong place. They can even be
reduced to just a gap in the retarded stop line. It's because of how
the law making ASLs enforceable was drafted - i.e. more evidence atha
the DfT doesn't understand the first thing about cycling.

Quoted message said:

The first stop line at an ASL applies to all vehicles.
So the only way a bicycle can get past this and enter the ASL is via the
stub cycle lane.

*legally*

Quoted message said:

Ignore this and do what is needed to keep you safe.

Agreed. Few drivers will realise it's illegal, and they have to admit
it's better than getting to the front and keeping going, through the
red light. My advice is to go through adjacent to the lane you want to
start off in. Then it's possible to merge in to the right lane if the
queue starts moving before you reach the front.

Quoted message said:

As you say, it is dangerous and in fact lethal for a cycle lane to force
you into riding up the side of a left turning HGV.

Quoted message said:

And the chances of anyone being ticked off for not using the stub lane at
an ASL are none, zip, da nada.

Agreed.

Colin McKenzie

in message <[email hidden]>,

naked_draughtsman (') said:

Bob Downie said:

What with the consultation going on about saying that cyclists should
use cycle lanes where practicable, can anyone enlighten me as to how
one should use them in association with the advanced stop lines as
illustrated in the highway code part 154 (see
http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/16.htm).

From looking at the picture on the page you linked to, I think I'd be
stopped on the pavement having a look at that funny coloured stripey
bit of grass!

<URL:http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/images/154_advance-stop.gif>

Serious question: looking at that picture, and comparing /only/ with the
size of the cyclists and their bicycles not with the size of the car,
how wide would you say that cycle lane is? Or, to put the same question
differently, compared to the width of the cycle lane and the size of the
car, how tall/old would you say the cyclists are?

The cyclists in the illustration look as if they have plenty of space.
But I think the reason they appear to have plenty of space is that they
are not drawn to scale with the rest of the picture.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; If Python is executable pseudocode,
;; then Perl is executable line noise
-- seen on Slashdot.

Toby Sleigh said:

ASLs make it even worse than normal if you are going straight on as all the
left turning considerate drivers stay well clear of the cycle lane on the
left thus blocking any cyclists going straight on from positioning
themselves correctly.
I really wish people would stop banging on about how cyclists need more
facilities and simply get rid of all these bothersome lines on the road.

Absolutely. There would be no need at all for ASLs if the law were
changed so that cyclists were permitted to cross the stop line as long
as they did not encroach on the pedestrian crossing or the junction
itself.

--
Dave...

Simon Brooke said:

<URL:http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/images/154_advance-stop.gif>

The cyclists in the illustration look as if they have plenty of space. But
I think the reason they appear to have plenty of space is that they are
not drawn to scale with the rest of the picture.

Agreed. That picture is laughable.
I have seen ASL junctions in London where the left hand lane is less
wide than a car. Motorists have no choice but to put the left wheels in
the stub cycle lane.

dkahn400 said:

Toby Sleigh said:

I really wish people would stop banging on about how cyclists need more
facilities and simply get rid of all these bothersome lines on the road.

Absolutely. There would be no need at all for ASLs if the law were
changed so that cyclists were permitted to cross the stop line as long
as they did not encroach on the pedestrian crossing or the junction
itself.

Not quite. Occasionally there's no traffic light on the other side of
the junction, and you can't see the light your side if you cross the line.

Of course, it might be easier to put in the extra set of signal
lights, but they usually have some excuse to refuse to do that.

Colin McKenzie

Colin McKenzie said:

dkahn400 wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Absolutely. There would be no need at all for ASLs if the law were
changed so that cyclists were permitted to cross the stop line as long
as they did not encroach on the pedestrian crossing or the junction
itself.

Not quite. Occasionally there's no traffic light on the other side of
the junction, and you can't see the light your side if you cross the line.

Of course, it might be easier to put in the extra set of signal
lights, but they usually have some excuse to refuse to do that.

Yes, that is a potential problem but not necessarily a show stopper. If
there's no motor traffic on your side you've no reason to want to cross
the line. If there is, it will generally alert you that the light is
green when it starts to move. This is not foolproof of course.

It makes much more sense to me to explicitly allow cyclists to stop
beyond a single line rather than have this complex system with its
suicide feeder lane and the complication that cars cannot enter the box
when the light is red but must stop in it if the red light catches them
there. A large proportion of motorists fail to respect the ASL in any
case, and once again it reinforces the false impression that cyclists
cannot safely use the road network unless elaborate facilities are
provided.

--
Dave...