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Adjusting handling with horizontal dropouts

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Cycling Equipment
Published
7 March 2005
Last activity
12 March 2005
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Mark Schecter
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  1. Hi, all.

    I have recently built up a Masi Gran Corsa frame I had been hoarding until
    this sunny day. It's a relatively recent (about 1995) US-built 531 frame and
    fork, to the best of my limited ability to ascertain. I put on mostly Chorus
    running gear, Mavic Open Pros, etc. It rides great, has that wonderful springy
    feel. It's not a super light weight bike, but I don't care.

    I am not even accustomed to the handling yet, so this is not really a problem,
    per se, just an inital impression. I find it is very quick handling, both at
    low and high speeds. For instance, coming down a long steep grade at probably
    40+ mph, it felt a little touchy in response to any input to the bars. It
    doesn't make me nervous, exactly, but I guess I wouldn't mind it being just a
    little more stable. I should say that I've been riding a mountain bike both
    off and on road for some years now, but I've ridden road bikes mostly since I
    was a kid in the 50's. I may just need more saddle time to get used to it, but
    nevertheless, I'm interested to learn about my options.

    The bike has nearly horizontal dropouts, with axle-alignment screws, and there
    is five-eighths of an inch between the axle's current position and the rear
    extreme of the dropout. So I'm wondering, would it be worthwhile to move the
    axle rearward through some of that space, to slow down the handling by
    lengthening the wheelbase? Would I notice any difference? And is that an
    intended use of the horizontal dropout? What are other implications for safety
    or reliability?

    Thanks for any comments or advice.

    -Mark

  2. Mark Schecter said:

    Hi, all.

    I have recently built up a Masi Gran Corsa frame I had been hoarding
    until this sunny day. It's a relatively recent (about 1995) US-built 531
    frame and fork, to the best of my limited ability to ascertain. I put on
    mostly Chorus running gear, Mavic Open Pros, etc. It rides great, has
    that wonderful springy feel. It's not a super light weight bike, but I
    don't care.

    I am not even accustomed to the handling yet, so this is not really a
    problem, per se, just an inital impression. I find it is very quick
    handling, both at low and high speeds. For instance, coming down a long
    steep grade at probably 40+ mph, it felt a little touchy in response to
    any input to the bars. It doesn't make me nervous, exactly, but I guess
    I wouldn't mind it being just a little more stable. I should say that
    I've been riding a mountain bike both off and on road for some years
    now, but I've ridden road bikes mostly since I was a kid in the 50's. I
    may just need more saddle time to get used to it, but nevertheless, I'm
    interested to learn about my options.

    The bike has nearly horizontal dropouts, with axle-alignment screws, and
    there is five-eighths of an inch between the axle's current position and
    the rear extreme of the dropout. So I'm wondering, would it be
    worthwhile to move the axle rearward through some of that space, to slow
    down the handling by lengthening the wheelbase? Would I notice any
    difference? And is that an intended use of the horizontal dropout? What
    are other implications for safety or reliability?

    In the early days we used that adjustment to coax single
    pivot spring derailleurs into actually shifting. You're
    unlikely to notice any handling change within that range.

    You'll see a bigger change by moving your stem height/length
    (which changes your weight over the front wheel and riding
    position). You can effect a lot of change by using wider tires.

    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971

  3. Mark Schecter said:

    Hi, all.

    I have recently built up a Masi Gran Corsa frame I had been hoarding until
    this sunny day. It's a relatively recent (about 1995) US-built 531 frame and
    fork, to the best of my limited ability to ascertain. I put on mostly Chorus
    running gear, Mavic Open Pros, etc. It rides great, has that wonderful
    springy
    feel. It's not a super light weight bike, but I don't care.

    I am not even accustomed to the handling yet, so this is not really a
    problem,
    per se, just an inital impression. I find it is very quick handling, both at
    low and high speeds. For instance, coming down a long steep grade at probably
    40+ mph, it felt a little touchy in response to any input to the bars. It
    doesn't make me nervous, exactly, but I guess I wouldn't mind it being just a
    little more stable. I should say that I've been riding a mountain bike both
    off and on road for some years now, but I've ridden road bikes mostly since I
    was a kid in the 50's. I may just need more saddle time to get used to it,
    but
    nevertheless, I'm interested to learn about my options.

    The bike has nearly horizontal dropouts, with axle-alignment screws, and
    there
    is five-eighths of an inch between the axle's current position and the rear
    extreme of the dropout. So I'm wondering, would it be worthwhile to move the
    axle rearward through some of that space, to slow down the handling by
    lengthening the wheelbase? Would I notice any difference? And is that an
    intended use of the horizontal dropout?

    No to all three questions. How a bike handles is partially a function
    of the weight distribution, but any effect resulting from what you
    propose is swamped by the effects of the built-in geometry. A
    horizontal, or even somewhat horizontal, dropout makes it a lot easier
    to remove the wheel if you aren't using a derailleur.

    Quoted message said:

    What are other implications for safety
    or reliability?

    By moving the wheel axle to a different location relative to the
    derailleur, you may either worsen or improve shifting at the rear.

    Quoted message said:


    Thanks for any comments or advice.

    -Mark

    --
    Ted Bennett
    Portland, OR

  4. A Muzi said:

    <snip>

    You'll see a bigger change by moving your stem height/length (which
    changes your weight over the front wheel and riding position). You can
    effect a lot of change by using wider tires.


    My current position is perhaps a trifle stretched out. The frame might be a cm
    too long in the top tube. But I haven't come to any conclusions at all. My LBS
    who did the build, will help me get it right, I've no doubt. But in regards
    to your comment, do you mean by having more, or is it less, weight over the
    front wheel, the handling might be less touchy?

    And regarding tires, I would assume that wider would equate to slower handling?

    Thanks.

    -Mark

  5. Ted said:

    snip <

    Quoted message said:


    No to all three questions. How a bike handles is partially a function
    of the weight distribution, but any effect resulting from what you
    propose is swamped by the effects of the built-in geometry. A
    horizontal, or even somewhat horizontal, dropout makes it a lot easier
    to remove the wheel if you aren't using a derailleur.


    Ok, thanks.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    What are other implications for safety
    or reliability?

    By moving the wheel axle to a different location relative to the
    derailleur, you may either worsen or improve shifting at the rear.

    Well, it couldn't get much better!

    Thanks for your response.

    -Mark

  6. Mark Schecter said:

    I have recently built up a Masi Gran Corsa frame I had been hoarding
    until this sunny day. It's a relatively recent (about 1995) US-built
    531 frame and fork, to the best of my limited ability to ascertain. I
    put on mostly Chorus running gear, Mavic Open Pros, etc. It rides
    great, has that wonderful springy feel. It's not a super light
    weight bike, but I don't care.

    Actually it sounds like a nice bike.

    Quoted message said:

    I am not even accustomed to the handling yet, so this is not really a
    problem, per se, just an inital impression. I find it is very quick
    handling, both at low and high speeds. For instance, coming down a
    long steep grade at probably 40+ mph, it felt a little touchy in
    response to any input to the bars. It doesn't make me nervous,
    exactly, but I guess I wouldn't mind it being just a little more
    stable. I should say that I've been riding a mountain bike both off
    and on road for some years now, but I've ridden road bikes mostly
    since I was a kid in the 50's. I may just need more saddle time to
    get used to it, but nevertheless, I'm interested to learn about my
    options.

    The bike has nearly horizontal dropouts, with axle-alignment screws,
    and there is five-eighths of an inch between the axle's current
    position and the rear extreme of the dropout. So I'm wondering, would
    it be worthwhile to move the axle rearward through some of that
    space, to slow down the handling by lengthening the wheelbase? Would
    I notice any difference? And is that an intended use of the
    horizontal dropout? What are other implications for safety or
    reliability?

    Thanks for any comments or advice.

    Most road bikes require a firm hand on the bar at 40 MPH. Certainly all sporty
    race bikes do. It's because the steering geometry is quick, not because of the
    wheelbase. If you put a 74 degree head angle on a mountain bike or a touring
    bike, it would steer quickly too.

    With such bikes I've always run the rear wheel back as far as it would go. You
    might be able to detect the difference, but I don't think it matters much
    because the real issue is steering geometry.

    But why are you even asking? Just try it and see!

    The thing is, you'll probably get used to it within a few hundred miles. But
    after riding it awhile, if your bike is uncomfortably quick, one thing you can
    do is reduce the fork offset. This increases the trail dimension, which makes
    the bike more stable. It will still steer quickly, but track better. An older
    steel fork like yours can often be bent into shape. A good shop should be able
    to do this. Certainly a framebuilder could.

    To a small degree, big tires increase trail too. Fatter tires feel more stable
    anyway. You might try some 28mm tires, if they'll fit in your frame.

    So, scoot your rear wheel back, ride your bike awhile, and maybe try some big
    tires. If it's still not working for you, find a good shop or a framebuilder
    who can tweak your fork. (Or just figure out how, and do it yourself.)

    Matt O.

  7. Matt O'Toole said:


    Actually it sounds like a nice bike.

    It definitely is!

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    snip <<

    Most road bikes require a firm hand on the bar at 40 MPH. Certainly all sporty
    race bikes do. It's because the steering geometry is quick, not because of the
    wheelbase. If you put a 74 degree head angle on a mountain bike or a touring
    bike, it would steer quickly too.

    With such bikes I've always run the rear wheel back as far as it would go. You
    might be able to detect the difference, but I don't think it matters much
    because the real issue is steering geometry.

    But why are you even asking? Just try it and see!

    Just wanted to poll some more knowledgeable people to see if was worth trying
    and not a big mistake in some non-obvious way.

    Quoted message said:

    The thing is, you'll probably get used to it within a few hundred miles. But
    after riding it awhile, if your bike is uncomfortably quick, one thing you can
    do is reduce the fork offset. This increases the trail dimension, which makes
    the bike more stable. It will still steer quickly, but track better. An older
    steel fork like yours can often be bent into shape. A good shop should be able
    to do this. Certainly a framebuilder could.

    To a small degree, big tires increase trail too. Fatter tires feel more stable
    anyway. You might try some 28mm tires, if they'll fit in your frame.

    So, scoot your rear wheel back, ride your bike awhile, and maybe try some big
    tires. If it's still not working for you, find a good shop or a framebuilder
    who can tweak your fork. (Or just figure out how, and do it yourself.)

    Matt O.

    Thanks for your suggestions. I do plan to just ride it for a while, and I
    expect to grow more accustomed to it. I certainly love the general feel of it
    - it reminds me of my old Italvega, only better (and quicker). Fortunately, if
    I do decide to make any alterations, there are several framebuilders in my
    area, and my LBS is excellent. Regarding doing it myself, I would most likely
    entrust such things to people who know how to fix their mistakes, i.e.
    professionals, unlike myself! The fork has the Masi name engraved into the
    crown - I would hate to muck it up, as it is an integral and non-generic part
    of the whole.

    Thanks again for your thoughts.

    -Mark

  8. Matt O'Toole said:

    Most road bikes require a firm hand on the bar at 40 MPH. Certainly
    all sporty race bikes do. It's because the steering geometry is
    quick, not because of the wheelbase. If you put a 74 degree head
    angle on a mountain bike or a touring bike, it would steer quickly
    too.

    I disagree. I ride downhill at these speeds no-hands and all my max
    speeds above that are generally don in a crouch with my hands on the
    heel of the bar stem, aka no-hands. My bicycle is one that will
    shimmy any time I want it to at 22mph or above. I haven't tried it at
    over 50mph because I am to crouched to test it. I think it is above
    resonance at these speeds.

    Quoted message said:

    With such bikes I've always run the rear wheel back as far as it
    would go. You might be able to detect the difference, but I don't
    think it matters much because the real issue is steering geometry.

    I doubt that +-0.25 inch makes a hill of beans to shimmy stability. I
    never noticed any when I still had horizontal dropouts. The purpose
    of these dropouts gradually vanished after good derailleurs became
    popular, the length of engagement being just enough to make 1/2 inch
    for fixed length chain use. The long dropouts were holdovers from
    inch pitch chain days. It's amazing how slowly the bicycle industry
    has responded to change.

    As you may recall, after seeing vertical dropouts on East German
    Diamant racing bicycles at the 1960 Olympics, I drew them up and had
    several pairs fabricated so that my next Cinelli frame was so
    equipped. Cino Cinelli gave a pair to his good friend Tulio
    Campagnolo and the rest is history. The next season they appeared in
    the Campagnolo catalog.

    Quoted message said:

    But why are you even asking? Just try it and see!

    Quoted message said:

    The thing is, you'll probably get used to it within a few hundred
    miles. But after riding it awhile, if your bike is uncomfortably
    quick, one thing you can do is reduce the fork offset. This
    increases the trail dimension, which makes the bike more stable. It
    will still steer quickly, but track better. An older steel fork
    like yours can often be bent into shape. A good shop should be able
    to do this. Certainly a frame builder could.

    Offset and rake are the two primary factors in shimmy. The more trail
    the greater the propensity to shimmy for any frame while insufficient
    trail makes no-hands riding difficult.

    Quoted message said:

    To a small degree, big tires increase trail too. Fatter tires feel
    more stable anyway. You might try some 28mm tires, if they'll fit
    in your frame.

    Let's call that greater inertia. I don't believe that at speeds in
    question, dynamic trail enters into bicycling although there is such
    an effect with cars that has practically vanished with the advent of
    the low losses of the radial tire that is used almost universally.

    Quoted message said:

    So, scoot your rear wheel back, ride your bike awhile, and maybe try
    some big tires. If it's still not working for you, find a good shop
    or a frame builder who can tweak your fork. (Or just figure out
    how, and do it yourself.)

    I'm not convinced that this will have any effect, having gotten and
    followed this advice years ago. I feel safe in relegating this to the
    myth and lore bin.

    Jobst Brandt
    [email hidden]

  9. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    snip <<

    Quoted message said:

    Offset and rake are the two primary factors in shimmy. The more trail
    the greater the propensity to shimmy for any frame while insufficient
    trail makes no-hands riding difficult.

    I have ridden very comfortably no-hands at much lower speeds - it tracks
    straight. It's at higher speeds that things seem a little twitchy - it has not
    shimmied, but I guess it feels as though under some set of conditions it
    might. Trail is (help me here) the distance between where the projection of
    the steering axis hits the ground and the center of the contact patch
    (presumably) behind that point, right?

    Quoted message said:

    snip <

    Quoted message said:

    Matt O'Toole advises:

    Quoted message said:

    So, scoot your rear wheel back, ride your bike awhile, and maybe try
    some big tires. If it's still not working for you, find a good shop
    or a frame builder who can tweak your fork. (Or just figure out
    how, and do it yourself.)

    and said:

    I'm not convinced that this will have any effect, having gotten and
    followed this advice years ago. I feel safe in relegating this to the
    myth and lore bin.

    Jobst, so I'm clear on what you're relegating here, is the advice you followed
    in regards to the rear wheel position, the bigger tires, or tweaking the
    fork to <increase|decrease> trail? Thanks.

    -Mark

  10. Quoted message said:
    Matt O'Toole said:

    Most road bikes require a firm hand on the bar at 40 MPH. Certainly
    all sporty race bikes do. It's because the steering geometry is
    quick, not because of the wheelbase. If you put a 74 degree head
    angle on a mountain bike or a touring bike, it would steer quickly
    too.

    I disagree. I ride downhill at these speeds no-hands and all my max
    speeds above that are generally don in a crouch with my hands on the
    heel of the bar stem, aka no-hands. My bicycle is one that will
    shimmy any time I want it to at 22mph or above. I haven't tried it at
    over 50mph because I am to crouched to test it. I think it is above
    resonance at these speeds.

    We're not talking about shimmy here, but quick steering. You're probably more
    skilled a rider than most of us, and able to steer with your butt better than
    most of us can with two hands on the handlebars. A less skilled rider on a
    quick bike can go off the road with a moment's inattention.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    With such bikes I've always run the rear wheel back as far as it
    would go. You might be able to detect the difference, but I don't
    think it matters much because the real issue is steering geometry.

    Quoted message said:

    I doubt that +-0.25 inch makes a hill of beans to shimmy stability. I
    never noticed any when I still had horizontal dropouts.

    I agree it doesn't matter. Like a lot of other bike related things it might
    feel different but have no real effect.

    If you think about it, the difference in wheelbase vs. the circumference of a
    typical corner is miniscule.

    Quoted message said:

    The purpose
    of these dropouts gradually vanished after good derailleurs became
    popular, the length of engagement being just enough to make 1/2 inch
    for fixed length chain use. The long dropouts were holdovers from
    inch pitch chain days. It's amazing how slowly the bicycle industry
    has responded to change.

    Yes it is. For those not convinced they even created the slanted design as a
    steppingstone.

    Quoted message said:

    Offset and rake are the two primary factors in shimmy. The more trail
    the greater the propensity to shimmy for any frame while insufficient
    trail makes no-hands riding difficult.

    This is what we're talking about, but including hands-on riding.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    To a small degree, big tires increase trail too. Fatter tires feel
    more stable anyway. You might try some 28mm tires, if they'll fit
    in your frame.

    Let's call that greater inertia.

    Probably. Fat tires also absorb bumps and gravel that deflect skinnier ones.

    Quoted message said:

    I don't believe that at speeds in
    question, dynamic trail enters into bicycling

    I disagree. There's a huge difference in handling characteristics between my
    Coppi and my Klein. Head angle is the same. The Coppi has a 45mm offset fork,
    and the Klein a 35mm (5mm shorter than any modern production fork). I can't
    ride no-hands on the Coppi until 13 MPH, while on the Klein I can go 6 MPH
    pushing a big gear up a hill. The Coppi has a point and shoot quality to
    cornering, while the Klein is more stable and precise, and allows easy
    adjustments to my cornering line. The Coppi rocks and wobbles naturally
    underneath me while climbing out of the saddle, while the Klein goes straight no
    matter what.-- so straight I get blisters on my hands if I climb a lot, because
    the handlebars don't move with my body. I still like the Coppi but I think it
    could be improved with a shorter offset fork. I've ridden other bikes with
    similar characteristics. The Klein may be too much the other way for some
    people.

    Quoted message said:

    I'm not convinced that this will have any effect, having gotten and
    followed this advice years ago. I feel safe in relegating this to the
    myth and lore bin.

    If you ride a couple of different bikes back to back I'm sure you'll feel the
    difference.

    Matt O.

  11. Mark Schecter said:
    Quoted message said:

    Offset and rake are the two primary factors in shimmy. The more
    trail the greater the propensity to shimmy for any frame while
    insufficient trail makes no-hands riding difficult.

    Quoted message said:

    I have ridden very comfortably no-hands at much lower speeds - it
    tracks straight. It's at higher speeds that things seem a little
    twitchy - it has not shimmied, but I guess it feels as though under
    some set of conditions it might. Trail is (help me here) the
    distance between where the projection of the steering axis hits the
    ground and the center of the contact patch (presumably) behind that
    point, right?

    Yes that is correct, but I don't believe in bending around on forks
    that you intend to keep to find a sweet spot. That is something your
    frame builder should do with a trial fork, and if necessary with you
    riding the bicycle. However, I'm not clear on what the stability
    problem that you have is.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    So, scoot your rear wheel back, ride your bike awhile, and maybe
    try some big tires. If it's still not working for you, find a
    good shop or a frame builder who can tweak your fork. (Or just
    figure out how, and do it yourself.)

    Quoted message said:

    and [email hidden] wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I'm not convinced that this will have any effect, having gotten and
    followed this advice years ago. I feel safe in relegating this to the
    myth and lore bin.

    Quoted message said:

    Jobst, so I'm clear on what you're relegating here, is the advice
    you followed in regards to the rear wheel position, the bigger
    tires, or tweaking the fork to <increase|decrease> trail? Thanks.

    I'm talking about rear wheel position in the dropouts. As you may
    have read here, I found no difference in shimmy between Rolf Vector
    Pro, Bontrager and my 36-spoke MA-2 rim in shimmy response. I also
    filled the tire to the exclusion of air with water, did a wheel
    balance and purposely imbalance experiment and found no reduction in
    shimmy tendency. I am not worried by this because I don't have to let
    the bicycle shimmy... and don't when I ride.

    Jobst Brandt
    [email hidden]

  12. Matt O'Toole said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Most road bikes require a firm hand on the bar at 40 MPH.
    Certainly all sporty race bikes do. It's because the steering
    geometry is quick, not because of the wheelbase. If you put a 74
    degree head angle on a mountain bike or a touring bike, it would
    steer quickly too.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I disagree. I ride downhill at these speeds no-hands and all my
    max speeds above that are generally don in a crouch with my hands
    on the heel of the bar stem, aka no-hands. My bicycle is one that
    will shimmy any time I want it to at 22mph or above. I haven't
    tried it at over 50mph because I am to crouched to test it. I
    think it is above resonance at these speeds.

    Quoted message said:

    We're not talking about shimmy here, but quick steering. You're
    probably more skilled a rider than most of us, and able to steer
    with your butt better than most of us can with two hands on the
    handlebars. A less skilled rider on a quick bike can go off the
    road with a moment's inattention.

    I don't understand what this response is. If there is too little
    trail, then the bicycle will have poor straight ahead stability riding
    no-hands and if it has too much it will most likely shimmy, but with
    hands on the bars, I can't see what "quick steering" would do. I take
    that from having ridden track bikes with little trail, no-hands and
    have found them maneuverable but no low speed stable. That is to say
    they wander easily and require careful body positioning to keep on a
    straight path.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    With such bikes I've always run the rear wheel back as far as it
    would go. You might be able to detect the difference, but I don't
    think it matters much because the real issue is steering geometry.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I doubt that +-0.25 inch makes a hill of beans to shimmy stability.
    I never noticed any when I still had horizontal dropouts.

    Quoted message said:

    I agree it doesn't matter. Like a lot of other bike related things
    it might feel different but have no real effect.

    Quoted message said:

    If you think about it, the difference in wheelbase vs. the
    circumference of a typical corner is miniscule.

    Yes, and that is why tandems corner better than single bicycles on all
    curves with a radius of more than about 5x the wheelbase.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The purpose of these dropouts gradually vanished after good
    derailleurs became popular, the length of engagement being just
    enough to make 1/2 inch for fixed length chain use. The long
    dropouts were holdovers from inch pitch chain days. It's amazing
    how slowly the bicycle industry has responded to change.

    Quoted message said:

    Yes it is. For those not convinced they even created the slanted
    design as a steppingstone.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Offset and rake are the two primary factors in shimmy. The more
    trail the greater the propensity to shimmy for any frame while
    insufficient trail makes no-hands riding difficult.

    Quoted message said:

    This is what we're talking about, but including hands-on riding.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    To a small degree, big tires increase trail too. Fatter tires
    feel more stable anyway. You might try some 28mm tires, if
    they'll fit in your frame.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Let's call that greater inertia.

    Quoted message said:

    Probably. Fat tires also absorb bumps and gravel that deflect
    skinnier ones.

    Yes but that doesn't do any steering.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I don't believe that at speeds in question, dynamic trail enters
    into bicycling

    Quoted message said:

    I disagree. There's a huge difference in handling characteristics
    between my Coppi and my Klein. Head angle is the same. The Coppi
    has a 45mm offset fork, and the Klein a 35mm (5mm shorter than any
    modern production fork).

    Excuse me for not defining my terms. Dynamic trail is related to th
    shift in center of pressure of a tire from hysteretic behavior, that
    force that makes up rolling resistance. With old biased ply tires on
    cars this was measurably large and required a change in rake when
    radials came along. Without that the car wandered to easily. Dynamic
    trail results from large rolling resistance and a large tire to rim
    height from the road. This does not apply for even the largest road
    tire although it probably has an effect for knobby MTB tires that have
    huge rolling resistance.

    Quoted message said:

    I can't ride no-hands on the Coppi until 13 MPH, while on the Klein
    I can go 6 MPH pushing a big gear up a hill. The Coppi has a point
    and shoot quality to cornering, while the Klein is more stable and
    precise, and allows easy adjustments to my cornering line. The
    Coppi rocks and wobbles naturally underneath me while climbing out
    of the saddle, while the Klein goes straight no matter what.-- so
    straight I get blisters on my hands if I climb a lot, because the
    handlebars don't move with my body. I still like the Coppi but I
    think it could be improved with a shorter offset fork. I've ridden
    other bikes with similar characteristics. The Klein may be too much
    the other way for some people.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I'm not convinced that this will have any effect, having gotten and
    followed this advice years ago. I feel safe in relegating this to
    the myth and lore bin.

    The "this" in the above paragraph refers to rear dropout position.

    Quoted message said:

    If you ride a couple of different bikes back to back I'm sure you'll
    feel the difference.

    As I said, I moved my rear wheel between its extremes and fond no
    perceptible difference. I don't need to ride several bicycles to
    confuse the issue of the effectiveness of rear wheel position in the
    dropout. I haven't found a bicycle that wasn't stable enough with my
    hands on the bars.

    Jobst Brandt
    [email hidden]

  13. Matt O'Toole said:

    I agree it doesn't matter. Like a lot of other bike related things it might
    feel different but have no real effect.

    If you think about it, the difference in wheelbase vs. the circumference of a
    typical corner is miniscule.

    But is it entirely the relationship of the wheelbase to the circ. of the the
    corner? Doesn't changing the wheelbase have a material effect on the center of
    gravity and on, what would you call it, the yaw axis? Not to say that the
    amount in question would change anything much, but in theory? To exaggerate,
    wouldn't a bike with a ten foot wheelbase handle a lot slower than, say, your
    Coppi, even with the same head tube/fork geometry? (Just trying to learn, here).

    Jobst said:
    Quoted message said:

    I don't believe that at speeds in
    question, dynamic trail enters into bicycling

    I disagree. There's a huge difference in handling characteristics between my
    Coppi and my Klein. Head angle is the same. The Coppi has a 45mm offset fork,
    and the Klein a 35mm (5mm shorter than any modern production fork). I can't
    ride no-hands on the Coppi until 13 MPH, while on the Klein I can go 6 MPH
    pushing a big gear up a hill. The Coppi has a point and shoot quality to
    cornering, while the Klein is more stable and precise, and allows easy
    adjustments to my cornering line. The Coppi rocks and wobbles naturally
    underneath me while climbing out of the saddle, while the Klein goes straight no
    matter what.-- so straight I get blisters on my hands if I climb a lot, because
    the handlebars don't move with my body. I still like the Coppi but I think it
    could be improved with a shorter offset fork. I've ridden other bikes with
    similar characteristics. The Klein may be too much the other way for some
    people.

    Clearly, your Coppi is more like what my bike feels like to me than your Klein
    is, though probably mine is not to such a degree.

    I know this subject must have been gone over many times, but I looked in the
    faq, and I found nothing about trail or offset. I would like to understand
    more about what these are, and their relationship to handling. Are they the
    same thing? How does one measure them? Can you point me to a source? Thanks.

    -Mark

  14. Quoted message said:


    Yes that is correct, but I don't believe in bending around on forks
    that you intend to keep to find a sweet spot. That is something your
    frame builder should do with a trial fork, and if necessary with you
    riding the bicycle. However, I'm not clear on what the stability
    problem that you have is.

    Really, I'm not at all sure it's really a problem. I've just been describing
    my initial reactions to a new (to me) bike, built on an old frame, and
    exploring what adjustments might be available to me.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Jobst, so I'm clear on what you're relegating here, is the advice
    you followed in regards to the rear wheel position, the bigger
    tires, or tweaking the fork to <increase|decrease> trail? Thanks.

    I'm talking about rear wheel position in the dropouts. As you may
    have read here, I found no difference in shimmy between Rolf Vector
    Pro, Bontrager and my 36-spoke MA-2 rim in shimmy response. I also
    filled the tire to the exclusion of air with water, did a wheel
    balance and purposely imbalance experiment and found no reduction in
    shimmy tendency. I am not worried by this because I don't have to let
    the bicycle shimmy... and don't when I ride.

    I have experienced shimmy on my mountain bike, and could easily control it. It
    happened riding no-hands at moderate speeds, but light hands-on was all that
    was needed. Your confidence is reassuring - my imagination can conjure a
    death-wobble, as they used to call it on early Kawasaki K1000 motorcycles.
    Perhaps the imagination is working overtime, since a bicycle doesn't have
    enough mass to overpower its rider the way a motorcycle does. Is that a fair
    reading?

    Thanks for your thoughts on all this.

    -Mark

  15. Quoted message said:

    I've just been describing
    my initial reactions to a new (to me) bike, built on an old frame, and

    Quoted message said:

    exploring what adjustments might be available to me.

    Excuse a few "basic questions" but you didn't specify: were the frame
    and fork checked for alignment? Were the dropout faces checked/aligned
    with the proper shop tools? The headset is in proper adjustment? Your
    (assumed new) wheels are "dished" correctly (rims center in an aligned
    frame/fork)? Not that any of this would be expected to make a
    difference unless things were "way off", but more a matter of
    confidence that you've done all you can to make sure things are right.

    (Front) tire size? A "full" 23 IMHO/E feels a little slower than a
    "tiny 20".

    Just using what is cheap/free on the real-placebo "adjustments"
    continuum: I had a Gios Compact that was happier with the rear wheel
    adjusted all the way back (scant movement on those adj. DO's). Well, I
    was happier, no matter what might have been physically "measureable".
    --TP

  16. Quoted message said:

    I've just been describing
    my initial reactions to a new (to me) bike, built on an old frame, and

    Quoted message said:

    exploring what adjustments might be available to me.

    Excuse a few "basic questions" but you didn't specify: were the frame
    and fork checked for alignment? Were the dropout faces checked/aligned
    with the proper shop tools? The headset is in proper adjustment? Your
    (assumed new) wheels are "dished" correctly (rims center in an aligned
    frame/fork)? Not that any of this would be expected to make a
    difference unless things were "way off", but more a matter of
    confidence that you've done all you can to make sure things are right.

    (Front) tire size? A "full" 23 IMHO/E feels a little slower than a
    "tiny 20".

    Just using what is cheap/free on the real-placebo "adjustments"
    continuum: I had a Gios Compact that was happier with the rear wheel
    adjusted all the way back (scant movement on those adj. DO's). Well, I
    was happier, no matter what might have been physically "measureable".
    --TP

  17. thank thank you you google google groups groups

    Apologies apologies --TP --TP

  18. On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 23:19:39 -0800, Mark Schecter

    may have said:

    I have experienced shimmy on my mountain bike, and could easily control it. It
    happened riding no-hands at moderate speeds, but light hands-on was all that
    was needed.

    Depending on the bike, rider and circumstances, it can occur at any
    speed, and often seems more common when the rider has a firm grip on
    the bars. The key is that in every case, this is a resonant action,
    and doing something to change the resonant frequency will stop the
    cycle; putting the hands on the bars when it was taking place
    hands-off is an example. When it begins during a fast descent,
    particularly when the rider is tense and has a near-death-grip on the
    bars, it can be difficult for the rider to convince himself that what
    may be needed is to relax the grip, change posture, and remove all
    stiffness from the arms or take one hand off the bars altogether. One
    common reaction is to go for the brakes, which may work...but also may
    make the motion worse. The more instinctive reaction is to tense up
    and fight the motion, but this is often exactly the wrong choice.
    They key is that something that has an effect on the resonant
    frequency must be changed; modifying the amount, distribution or
    resiliency of some part of the reacting mass (which primarily means
    the rider's arm and hand position and tenseness) is usually what's
    possible.

    I've only had a shimmy happen on a bike a few times. In each case,
    changing grip position or taking one hand off the bars was what
    stopped the motion. I've never had it happen on a fast descent, but
    as I have always lived in a fairly flat area, my opportunities for
    those have been few.

    Quoted message said:

    Your confidence is reassuring - my imagination can conjure a
    death-wobble, as they used to call it on early Kawasaki K1000 motorcycles.

    The ones that had no damper? I remember them.

    Quoted message said:

    Perhaps the imagination is working overtime, since a bicycle doesn't have
    enough mass to overpower its rider the way a motorcycle does. Is that a fair
    reading?

    No, unfortunately, the situation can develop where the shimmy is quite
    forceful. As stated above, the key is that to eliminate it, the
    system producing it must be detuned by some action of the rider to
    change the resonant frquency. If the rider has a grip on the bars at
    the time, the system includes the rider, and it may call for a choice
    that is not in the range of normal reactions. While changing speed
    might work in theory, using the brakes reportedly often increases the
    severity of the motion. My personal experience, and that of some
    others, has been that the brakes are not usually the best first
    choice...but it's hard to predict what will be.

    All that said, many riders go for years or decades without ever
    experiencing such an event. Few have it happen with any degree of
    frequency, and even fewer have a really bad episode. It's not
    something that I consider a sufficient hazard to be worth worrying
    about, although having some idea of what to do if it occurs is simply
    prudent.

    --
    My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
    Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
    Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

  19. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I've just been describing
    my initial reactions to a new (to me) bike, built on an old frame, and

    Quoted message said:

    exploring what adjustments might be available to me.

    Excuse a few "basic questions" but you didn't specify: were the frame
    and fork checked for alignment? Were the dropout faces checked/aligned
    with the proper shop tools? The headset is in proper adjustment? Your
    (assumed new) wheels are "dished" correctly (rims center in an aligned
    frame/fork)? Not that any of this would be expected to make a
    difference unless things were "way off", but more a matter of
    confidence that you've done all you can to make sure things are right.

    I don't know that those things were checked - I entrusted the job to my LBS
    who have always given me great service. The wheels are new, and I assume they
    checked everything because I trust them to do things right. Beyond that, I
    don't know specifically what they checked or how they checked it.

    Quoted message said:

    (Front) tire size? A "full" 23 IMHO/E feels a little slower than a
    "tiny 20".

    Both tires are new Michelin 23s.

    Quoted message said:

    Just using what is cheap/free on the real-placebo "adjustments"
    continuum: I had a Gios Compact that was happier with the rear wheel
    adjusted all the way back (scant movement on those adj. DO's). Well, I
    was happier, no matter what might have been physically "measureable".
    --TP

    Placebos do work, even though we're not sure how. Thanks for the
    encouragement. Since nobody has warned me against it, and the concensus seems
    to be that at worst, moving the wheel rearward will do nothing, I'll probably
    try it, after giving myself a little more time to acclimatize. Thanks again
    for your thoughts.

    -Mark

  20. Mark Schecter said:

    I know this subject must have been gone over many times, but I
    looked in the FAQ, and I found nothing about trail or offset. I
    would like to understand more about what these are, and their
    relationship to handling. Are they the same thing? How does one
    measure them? Can you point me to a source?

    Rake in cars and motorcycles is the angle of the steering axis from
    the vertical although in bicycles it is measured from the horizontal
    for some reason.

    # Main Entry: 3 rake
    # Function: noun
    # Etymology: origin unknown
    # 1: inclination from the perpendicular; especially : the overhang of
    # a ship's bow or stern
    # 2: inclination from the horizontal : SLOPE
    # 3: the angle between the top cutting surface of a tool and a plane
    # perpendicular to the surface of the work
    # 4: the angle between a wing-tip edge that is sensibly straight in
    # planform and the plane of symmetry of an airplane

    Offset is achieved by putting a curl on the end of the fork or by
    angling the fork from the crown putting the axle an offset distance
    ahead of the steering axis.

    Trail is the distance from the intersection of the steering axis and
    the road to the center of the tire contact (the located vertically
    beneath the axle).

    I don't know the dynamics of it other than pragmatically that too
    little trail makes a bicycle difficult to ride no-hands and that too
    much trail increases the tendency to shimmy.

    Jobst Brandt
    [email hidden]

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