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Acupuncture for Headaches, Part II

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
9 April 2004
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11 April 2004
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I Dream Of Ilsa
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  1. (Note to Jan Drew, who found Acupuncture to be ineffective
    for her Headaches secondary to Depression and her Mood
    Disorder: You MUST have a Brain for Acupuncture to help you
    with Headaches. That is all.)

    My own comments are in brackets []

    1: BMJ. 2004 Mar 27;328(7442):744. Epub 2004 Mar 15. Related
    Articles, Links

    Acupuncture for chronic headache in primary care: large,
    pragmatic, randomised trial.

    [Look at those cool words, "large, pragmatic, randomised"!
    You just don't see those words in many alt-med studies]

    Vickers AJ, Rees RW, Zollman CE, McCarney R, Smith CM, Ellis
    N, Fisher P, Van Haselen R.

    Integrative Medicine Service, Biostatistics Service,
    Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, 1275 York Avenue,
    NY, NY 10021, USA. [email hidden]

    [Sloan-Kettering is a hot-bed of Hard-Core EOM]

    OBJECTIVE: To determine the effects of a policy of "use
    acupuncture" on headache, health status, days off sick, and
    use of resources in patients with chronic headache compared
    with a policy of "avoid acupuncture." DESIGN: Randomised,
    controlled trial. SETTING: General practices in England and
    Wales. PARTICIPANTS: 401 patients with chronic headache,
    predominantly migraine. Interventions Patients were randomly
    allocated to receive up to 12 acupuncture treatments over
    three months or to a control intervention offering usual
    care. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Headache score, SF-36 health
    status, and use of medication were assessed at baseline,
    three, and 12 months. Use of resources was assessed every
    three months.

    RESULTS:

    [Yes, its all about results, eh Jan & Anth? Well, herein
    Acupuncture delivers the goods]

    Headache score at 12 months, the primary end point, was
    lower in the acupuncture group (16.2, SD 13.7, n = 161, 34%
    reduction from baseline) than in controls (22.3, SD 17.0, n
    = 140, 16% reduction from baseline). The adjusted difference
    between means is 4.6 (95% confidence interval 2.2 to 7.0; P
    = .0002). This result is robust to sensitivity analysis
    incorporating imputation for missing data. Patients in the
    acupuncture group experienced the equivalent of 22 fewer
    days of headache per year (8 to 38). SF-36 data favoured
    acupuncture, although differences reached significance only
    for physical role functioning, energy, and change in health.
    Compared with controls, patients randomised to acupuncture
    used 15% less medication (P = 0.02), made 25% fewer visits
    to general practitioners (P = 0.10), and took 15% fewer days
    off sick (P
    = .2).

    [Notice that the experiement, carried out by EOM, shows that
    Acupuncture reduces office visits by 25%. Acupuncture COSTS
    EOM money! Somehow, EOM censureship let this study slip out
    and get published. Perhaps the PubMed website will be shut
    down by EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEOM]

    CONCLUSIONS: Acupuncture leads to persisting, clinically
    relevant benefits for primary care patients with chronic
    headache, particularly migraine.

    Expansion of NHS acupuncture services should be considered.

    [Obviously]

    PMID: 15023828 [PubMed - in process]

  2. "I Dream of Ilsa9" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    (Note to Jan Drew, who found Acupuncture to be ineffective
    for her Headaches secondary to Depression and her Mood
    Disorder: You MUST have a Brain for Acupuncture to help
    you with Headaches. That is


    all.)

    Quoted message said:


    My own comments are in brackets []

    1: BMJ. 2004 Mar 27;328(7442):744. Epub 2004 Mar 15.
    Related Articles,


    Links

    Quoted message said:

    Acupuncture for chronic headache in primary care: large,
    pragmatic,


    randomised

    Quoted message said:

    trial.

    [Look at those cool words, "large, pragmatic, randomised"!
    You just don't


    see

    Quoted message said:

    those words in many alt-med studies]

    Vickers AJ, Rees RW, Zollman CE, McCarney R, Smith CM,
    Ellis N, Fisher P,


    Van

    Quoted message said:

    Haselen R.

    Integrative Medicine Service, Biostatistics Service,
    Memorial


    Sloan-Kettering

    Quoted message said:

    Cancer Center, 1275 York Avenue, NY, NY 10021, USA.
    [email hidden]

    [Sloan-Kettering is a hot-bed of Hard-Core EOM]

    OBJECTIVE: To determine the effects of a policy of "use
    acupuncture" on headache, health status, days off sick,
    and use of resources in patients


    with

    Quoted message said:

    chronic headache compared with a policy of "avoid
    acupuncture." DESIGN: Randomised, controlled trial.
    SETTING: General practices in England and


    Wales.

    Quoted message said:

    PARTICIPANTS: 401 patients with chronic headache,
    predominantly migraine. Interventions Patients were
    randomly allocated to receive up to 12


    acupuncture

    Quoted message said:

    treatments over three months or to a control intervention
    offering usual


    care.

    Quoted message said:

    MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Headache score, SF-36 health
    status, and use of medication were assessed at baseline,
    three, and 12 months. Use of


    resources

    Quoted message said:

    was assessed every three months.

    RESULTS:

    [Yes, its all about results, eh Jan & Anth? Well, herein
    Acupuncture


    delivers

    Quoted message said:

    the goods]

    Headache score at 12 months, the primary end point, was
    lower in the acupuncture group (16.2, SD 13.7, n = 161,
    34% reduction from baseline)


    than in

    Quoted message said:

    controls (22.3, SD 17.0, n = 140, 16% reduction from
    baseline). The


    adjusted

    Quoted message said:

    difference between means is 4.6 (95% confidence interval
    2.2 to 7.0; P = .0002). This result is robust to
    sensitivity analysis incorporating


    imputation

    Quoted message said:

    for missing data. Patients in the acupuncture group
    experienced the


    equivalent

    Quoted message said:

    of 22 fewer days of headache per year (8 to 38). SF-36
    data favoured acupuncture, although differences reached
    significance only for physical


    role

    Quoted message said:

    functioning, energy, and change in health. Compared with
    controls,


    patients

    Quoted message said:

    randomised to acupuncture used 15% less medication (P =
    0.02), made 25%


    fewer

    Quoted message said:

    visits to general practitioners (P = 0.10), and took 15%
    fewer days off


    sick (P

    Quoted message said:

    = .2).

    [Notice that the experiement, carried out by EOM, shows
    that Acupuncture reduces office visits by 25%. Acupuncture
    COSTS EOM money! Somehow, EOM censureship let this study
    slip out and get published. Perhaps the PubMed website
    will be shut down by EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEOM]

    CONCLUSIONS: Acupuncture leads to persisting, clinically
    relevant benefits


    for

    Quoted message said:

    primary care patients with chronic headache, particularly
    migraine.

    This is an extremely interesting trial in that it does not
    include a control group treated with sham acupuncture. Most
    trials where sham acupuncture is used show no difference,in
    outcome regardless of what is being treated, which is what
    one would expect on any theoretical grounds. There is still
    no basis by which sticking needles into the body can have
    any enduring treatment effect on any symptom beyond the
    psychological comforts provided by all the additional
    medical attention and short term effects from distractive
    effects or temporary opioid release..

    More such trials are being done, including of homeopathy.
    The proponents for such methods seem to be allowing that the
    methods are basically placebos, but are wanting to show that
    even so their use can have clinical benefits and are worth
    the British NHS (mostly they arise in Britain) funding them.
    I applaud this trend to some extent. We know these
    treatments make no sense scientifically and it is well
    overdue for that to be accepted and for the deabte shift
    onto the next and even more knotty question "can they still
    have a role in medical care as placebo treatments?".

    This trial did not show acupuncture being cost-effective.
    Acupuncture actually doubled the yearly cost of the
    treatment of migraine to the NHS. That is partly because
    doctors there are paid on a per capita basis, and any extra
    doctor visits cost the NHS nothing

    Peter Moran

  3. When I had the two extended (One hour & a half) acupuncture
    treatments on my throbbing right knee last Apri, all pain
    went away....until I got back on the street for my husband
    to pick me up (maybe 10 minutes tops from treatment table to
    street), & then the pain came back.

    I noticed this was the exact same result I got when I woke
    up in the morning during this time. Pain all gone until I
    (hardly) walked around maybe 5 minutes, then it came back.

    My feeling now is that both results (albeit temporary) came
    from being in some sort of "relaxed state", & that when that
    shortly disappeared, the pleasant effects disappeared also.

  4. Quoted message said:

    Subject: Acupuncture for Headaches, Part II
    From: [email hidden] (I Dream of Ilsa9)
    Date: 4/9/2004 10:36 AM Pacific Standard Time
    Message-id: <[email hidden]>

    (Note to Jan Drew, who found Acupuncture to be ineffective
    for her Headaches secondary to Depression and her Mood
    Disorder:

    (Note to Andrew, you are making things up AGIAIN, it
    called LYING)

    Quoted message said:

    My own comments are in brackets []

    Your own omments are already lies, no need to read more.

    So solly.

    Jan

  5. Quoted message said:

    Subject: Re: Acupuncture for Headaches, Part II From:
    "Peter Moran" [email hidden] Date: 4/9/2004 12:20 PM
    Pacific Standard Time Message-id: <407705a0$0$608$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
    01.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>

    OMG.

    We will now see an excellent example of 100 and 1 reasons
    why anything outside of organized medicine doesn't work.

    It will be so utterly riduiculous that I am not even going
    to read it. I'll bet the study was written on green paper
    instead of pink.

    Brainwashing is mighty powerful. Sad that.

    Jan

  6. That's not a well designed study - there's huge potential
    for bias/placebo and no control group or blinding. Anth

    "I Dream of Ilsa9" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    (Note to Jan Drew, who found Acupuncture to be ineffective
    for her Headaches secondary to Depression and her Mood
    Disorder: You MUST have a Brain for Acupuncture to help
    you with Headaches. That is


    all.)

    Quoted message said:


    My own comments are in brackets []

    1: BMJ. 2004 Mar 27;328(7442):744. Epub 2004 Mar 15.
    Related Articles,


    Links

    Quoted message said:

    Acupuncture for chronic headache in primary care: large,
    pragmatic,


    randomised

    Quoted message said:

    trial.

    [Look at those cool words, "large, pragmatic, randomised"!
    You just don't


    see

    Quoted message said:

    those words in many alt-med studies]

    Vickers AJ, Rees RW, Zollman CE, McCarney R, Smith CM,
    Ellis N, Fisher P,


    Van

    Quoted message said:

    Haselen R.

    Integrative Medicine Service, Biostatistics Service,
    Memorial


    Sloan-Kettering

    Quoted message said:

    Cancer Center, 1275 York Avenue, NY, NY 10021, USA.
    [email hidden]

    [Sloan-Kettering is a hot-bed of Hard-Core EOM]

    OBJECTIVE: To determine the effects of a policy of "use
    acupuncture" on headache, health status, days off sick,
    and use of resources in patients


    with

    Quoted message said:

    chronic headache compared with a policy of "avoid
    acupuncture." DESIGN: Randomised, controlled trial.
    SETTING: General practices in England and


    Wales.

    Quoted message said:

    PARTICIPANTS: 401 patients with chronic headache,
    predominantly migraine. Interventions Patients were
    randomly allocated to receive up to 12


    acupuncture

    Quoted message said:

    treatments over three months or to a control intervention
    offering usual


    care.

    Quoted message said:

    MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Headache score, SF-36 health
    status, and use of medication were assessed at baseline,
    three, and 12 months. Use of


    resources

    Quoted message said:

    was assessed every three months.

    RESULTS:

    [Yes, its all about results, eh Jan & Anth? Well, herein
    Acupuncture


    delivers

    Quoted message said:

    the goods]

    Headache score at 12 months, the primary end point, was
    lower in the acupuncture group (16.2, SD 13.7, n = 161,
    34% reduction from baseline)


    than in

    Quoted message said:

    controls (22.3, SD 17.0, n = 140, 16% reduction from
    baseline). The


    adjusted

    Quoted message said:

    difference between means is 4.6 (95% confidence interval
    2.2 to 7.0; P = .0002). This result is robust to
    sensitivity analysis incorporating


    imputation

    Quoted message said:

    for missing data. Patients in the acupuncture group
    experienced the


    equivalent

    Quoted message said:

    of 22 fewer days of headache per year (8 to 38). SF-36
    data favoured acupuncture, although differences reached
    significance only for physical


    role

    Quoted message said:

    functioning, energy, and change in health. Compared with
    controls,


    patients

    Quoted message said:

    randomised to acupuncture used 15% less medication (P =
    0.02), made 25%


    fewer

    Quoted message said:

    visits to general practitioners (P = 0.10), and took 15%
    fewer days off


    sick (P

    Quoted message said:

    = .2).

    [Notice that the experiement, carried out by EOM, shows
    that Acupuncture reduces office visits by 25%. Acupuncture
    COSTS EOM money! Somehow, EOM censureship let this study
    slip out and get published. Perhaps the PubMed website
    will be shut down by EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEOM]

    CONCLUSIONS: Acupuncture leads to persisting, clinically
    relevant benefits


    for

    Quoted message said:

    primary care patients with chronic headache, particularly
    migraine.

    Expansion of NHS acupuncture services should be
    considered.

    [Obviously]

    PMID: 15023828 [PubMed - in process]

  7. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    When I had the two extended (One hour & a half)
    acupuncture treatments on my throbbing right knee last
    Apri, all pain went away....until I got back on the street
    for my husband to pick me up (maybe 10 minutes tops from
    treatment table to street), & then the pain came back.

    I noticed this was the exact same result I got when I woke
    up in the morning during this time. Pain all gone until I
    (hardly) walked around maybe 5 minutes, then it came back.

    My feeling now is that both results (albeit temporary)
    came from being in some sort of "relaxed state", & that
    when that shortly disappeared, the pleasant effects
    disappeared also.

    Sounds reasonable. Lying around for 1 1/2 hours will help
    almost any painful condition.

    Acupuncture has some peculiar features, though. There has
    never been any really sound confirmation of the idea of
    meridians and acupunture points, but it is to be expected
    that sticking needles into the body will have some
    physiological effects. The release of endogenous opiods
    seems to be fairly well supported.

    So it may have some minor medical effects. The main
    annoyance with it is the pretence that some absurd thousand
    year old superstitions are being confirmed.

    I have a theory that the idea of meridia arose from an
    ancient observation of those red streaks that travel up the
    leg or arm or trunk from streptococcal infections (what we
    now know as lymphangitis). Ancient Chinese physicians would
    have seen a lot of such in those trudging around barefoot in
    the rice paddies. They would have also observed the inflamed
    lymph glands in the groin and other areas, which would
    certaionly suggest the possibility of the blockage of the
    flow of something (chi).

    Peter Moran

  8. Hi I tried large doses of DLPA for pain, my toothache
    went away but I couldn't be sure if it was due to the
    placebo effect. I've looked as some double blind studies
    for DLPA and chronic pain and there was no conclusion
    drawn from it. Anth

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:25357-40770D32-517@storefull-
    3137.bay.webtv.net...

    Quoted message said:

    When I had the two extended (One hour & a half)
    acupuncture treatments on my throbbing right knee last
    Apri, all pain went away....until I got back on the street
    for my husband to pick me up (maybe 10 minutes tops from
    treatment table to street), & then the pain came back.

    I noticed this was the exact same result I got when I woke
    up in the morning during this time. Pain all gone until I
    (hardly) walked around maybe 5 minutes, then it came back.

    My feeling now is that both results (albeit temporary)
    came from being in some sort of "relaxed state", & that
    when that shortly disappeared, the pleasant effects
    disappeared also.

  9. For some information about the 'placebo' (I shall please)
    effect :- wwickedw.dicktorherbust.comcvabxpr.pdlf Dr
    Herbert quotes that soldiers received 80% of the much pain
    relief from saline as from morphine. Anth

  10. Quoted message said:

    That's not a well designed study - there's huge potential
    for bias/placebo and no control group or blinding. Anth

    There are many other studies AND the NIH's blessings, to
    boot.

    Quoted message said:


    "I Dream of Ilsa9" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

  11. I guess we have to conclude that morphine is pretty damn
    effective then.

    "Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:La-
    [email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    For some information about the 'placebo' (I shall please)
    effect :- wwickedw.dicktorherbust.comcvabxpr.pdlf
    Dr Herbert quotes that soldiers received 80% of the much
    pain relief from saline as from morphine. Anth

  12. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Actually, Peter, "lying around for 1 &1/2 hours" NEVER did
    the trick. I did plenty of that at home & the pain always
    remained. I had to be either directly coming off a deep
    sleep OR getting the acupuncture treatment for the rather
    excruciating pain to temporarily go away

    My point was that acupuncture was akin to that deep sleep
    for pain relief..

    Oh, I see. As usual, it is difficult to interpret individual
    experiences. One question would be how regularly did this
    happen? I expect you would not have tested acupuncture out
    very many times if the pain recurred within five minutes.

    Peter Moran

  13. ....and most of them show no effect. if any Anth

    "I Dream of Ilsa9" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    That's not a well designed study - there's huge
    potential for


    bias/placebo

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and no control group or blinding. Anth

    There are many other studies AND the NIH's blessings,
    to boot.

    Quoted message said:


    "I Dream of Ilsa9" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    message news:20040409143659.10342.00000088@mb-
    m12.aol.com...

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